The second parte of the cōfutacion of Tyndals answere In whyche is also confuted the chyrche that Tyndale deuyseth.

And the chyrche also that frere Barns deuyseth.

Made by syr Th [...]mas More knyght.

¶Prentyd at London By wyllyam Rastell.

1533

CVM PRIVILEGIO.

¶The fourth boke,

¶whyther the chyrche can erre.

Tyndale.

THere is a nother question, whyther the chyrche maye erre. Whyche yf ye vn­derstande of the pope and hys generacyon / is verely as harde a questyon as to aske B whyther he that hath bothe hys eyes out be blynde or no, or whyther it be possible for hym that hath one legge shorter then a nother, to halte.

More.

WHo wolde not nowe wene that thys man had a playne clere open cause and easy to defende / when that euyn in y begynnyng in so few wordes, he concludeth all the mater at onys / and that wyth ensamples so playne and euydent, that euery man muste nedys agree them to be trew [...] But when ye shall agayne se, that hys ensamples are no more C lyghtsome, then v [...]lyke the mater that he resembleth them vnto / and that he eyther of wylynesse wyll not, or for lacke of wytte can not perceyue and se the poynt that he shulde towche: then shall euery wyse man well perceyue and se, that hys solempne shewe of suche confydence in hys euyll cause, is nothynge but a playne proclamacyon made by hys owne mouth, of hys owne rebuke and shame.

For here wolde I wytte what thynge Tyndale mea­neth, by the pope and popys generacyon. If he meane hys carnall kynredde, or the pope and his cardynallys eyther: he then wynketh of wylynesse, and wyll not se the marke. For he knoweth very well y neyther of these is the thyng [Page ii] that we call the chyrche, when we speke of the catholyke A chyrche of Cryste that can not erre.

If he meane by the pope and hys generacyon, all the crystens nacyons not beynge cut of nor caste out for theyr obstynate malyce, nor of wylfulnesse departyng out by se­dycyouse scysmes: then seeth he y marke at the leste wyse. But then whyle he sayth that all these nacyons maye and hath all thys .viii. hundred yere, so entyerly fallen in to he­resyes and dampnable errours, that by all thys .viii. hun­dred yeres laste passed vnto Luthers dayes, nor yet vnto thys daye neyther, there hath ben no one knowen congre­gacyon any where, wherin y professynge of the very ryght catholyke fayth of Cryst hath bene so surely kepte, that yt myghte there be surely lerned and knowen: then I saye Tyndale ys as blynde as he that lacketh bothe hys eyes / B in that he seeth not that by thys waye he maketh our sauyoure Cryste that is very trewth to saye very false, where he sayth I am wyth you to the ende of the worlde / & wolde make hym farre ouerseen, [...]atth. 28. where he commaunded that who so wolde not here the chyrche,Matth. 1 [...]. shulde be reputed and taken as Paynyms and Publicans / and in many a playn texte of scrypture mo, as I haue before shewed, as well in my dyaloge as myne other thre formar bokes of this pre­sent worke, and yet hereafter shall forther.

Moreouer, yf Tyndale saye that all thys knowen corps of crystendome, haue all these .viii. hundred yere ben in a wronge bylyefe / where hath ben all thys whyle the ryght congregacyon of Tyndals chyrche, that hath h [...] the trewe bylyefe? And lette hym tell vs then, whyche con­gregacyon C it was, or where any suche is yet, of whom we maye surely lerne the trewe fayth and trewe vertues.

If he saye that it hath ben amonge these, and was in thys chyrche but not of thys chyrch / but they haue lurked there a few faythfull folke, amonge the greate many mul­tytude of the faythlesse, and haue euer bene to the worlde and outwarde syghte of man vnknowen / not so mych knowen as one of them to another, but yet very well knowen to god: to thys, besydes that yf they haue lyen all thys whyle lurkynge therin, they haue be then idolatres by theyr owne iudgemente, in image seruyce and prayeng to [Page iii] A sayntes (yf Tyndals doctryne be the trewe faythe) and starke ypocrytes in beynge of one bylyefe in theyr hartes, and pretendyng another, both in theyr wordes and dedes / and besyde dyuerse other inuyncyble reasons, wyth which I haue all redy reproued that fonde opynyō in the seconde boke of my dyaloge, where vnto Tyndale hath made so bare answere that it hadde ben more wysedome for hym to haue lette it all alone and medle nothynge therwyth, as euery chylde almoste maye well perceyue that lyste to loke on them bothe, and aduysedly compare them togyder, as I shall my selfe set it forth vnto them when god shall after other thynges done gyue me tyme to come therto / and be­syde dyuers other argumentes euydent and playne, why­che I partely haue, partely shall alledge and brynge forth B in thys present work: this one can he neuer auoyde whyle he lyueth, that god had then lefte euery man perplexed in dowte and out of certaynte, what waye he myghte su­rely take and cleue vnto, eyther in the doctryne of fayth or knowlege of vertuose lyuynge.

For yf he saye that we nede no knowen company, but euery man maye rede the scrypture hym selfe: euery man he woteth well can not rede, nor euery man vnderstand it though he haue it in hys owne tonge / but by the redynge wythout a reder, maye soone fall into the dampnable er­rour of Arrius, Heluidius, and many a nother heretyke mo / whyche of the scrypture thorow theyr owne pryde toke occasyon of theyr heresyes.

If he then saye that of that vnknowen congregacyon, C we maye haue a trew reder: where shall I seke hym, and wherby shall I knowe hym / yf I happen on hym, howe shall I be sure? For in thys great knowen congregacyon, we be saufe agaynste all suche parell. For we be all agreed vppon the necessarye artycles of the fayth. And yf any wolde preche and teche the contrary / as he that wold per­case teche that confessyon is not necessarye, and that pe­naunce nedeth not, and that of the .vii. sacramentes .v. serue of nought, and the syxte of almost as lytell / and that of the seuenth all crysten nacyons be, and all thys .xv. hun­dred yere haue ben in a very damnable erroure: he that thus wolde preache and teche suche habomynable here­syes [Page iiii] as nowe Tyndale doth, he maye be soone controlled,A accused and corrected / excepte he ronne awaye as Tyn­dale doeth.

And wherby can we be sure that hys techynge whyche ys accusyd, ys false and theyrs trewe that correcte hym / but by that we be sure that the comen fayth of the catho­lyke chyrch is trewe / and that the catholyke knowen chyr­che can not erre in that fayth, whych from hande to hande hath ben taken & kepte from Crystes dayes and hys apo­stles hytherto. whyche fayth muste nedes be trewe by Crystes promyse made vnto hys apostles, as teachers of hys chyrche, and not for them selfe but for hys chyrche / that is to wytte,Matth. 16. the fayth that saynte Peter professed shulde not fayle, and that god wolde be wyth them all dayes vnto the ende of the worlde.Matth. 28. And that the fayth of the knowen B catholyke chyrche, that corre [...]teth the false fayth of the false precheours and heretykes, is the same fayth whyche the holy doctours of Crystes chyrche in euery age haue beleued and taught: saynte Ierome, saynte Austeyne, saynt Ambrose, saynte Chrysosteme, [...]aynte Gregory, and saynte Cypryane do well and clerely testyfye by theyr bokes. For whyche holy doctours our lorde hath shewyd many a wonderfull myracle.

These thynges and many other maketh vs sure, that the prechour whyche prechyth agaynste the fayth of thys congregacyon is a false prechour, and a false wryther and wrester of holy scrypture / howe solempnely so euer he paynte yt.

And yf we were not sure by these meanes, that the fayth C of thys knowen catholyke congregacyon is trewe / how shulde I be sure of the prechour of that vnknowen con­gregacyon, whyche Tyndale calleth the chyrche. How shuld I know I saye whyther ye prechour say trew or not. For he hath no knowen congregacyon to reproue hym or allow hym the suerty wherof myght make me sure that he sayth trewe or false.

But then muste I sayth Tyndale, trye hym by ye trewth of scrypture. what yf I be vnlerned? what yf I can rede & haue it in my langage, and yet vnderstand it but slēderly? what yf I be well lerned, and the false prechour as well lerned [Page v] A as I though he were no better: yet he shall haue texte agaynste texte, and glose agaynste glose / and when shall we then agree? Or yf I gyue place to hym or he to me / how shall yet the nomber of vnlerned herers be satysfyed wyth our dowtefull dysputacyons, yf they were not sure by the comon fayth of the knowen catholyke chyrch, why­che of vs lyed ere euer we came to gyther. By whyche they that neuer redde any scrypture / be now by the holy goost that hath planted the trewe fayth in his catholyke chyrche (y holy doctours wherof haue in euery age ben approued by myracles) so inwardly sure of the trewth, that a poore symple woman yf Tyndale and I broughte the trouth in debate and questyon, and that I were waxen so madde to graunte hym that hys false heresyes were trewe / she wold B not lette to byleue and saye so to, that we were two madde folys and false heretykes bothe.

And that thys is trewe shall mych the better apere whē we well examyne and consyder what congregacyon Tyn­dale calleth the catholyke chyrch [...].

Tyndale.

I saye that Crystes electe chyrch is the hole multytude of all repentyng synners that byleue in Cryste, and put all theyr truste and confidence in the mercy of god / felynge in theyr hartes that god for Crystes sake loueth them and wyll be or rather is mercyfull vnto them, and forgyueth them theyr synnes of whyche they repente / and that he forgyueth them also all the mo­cyons vnto synne, of the whyche they fe [...]e leste they shulde therby be drawne into synne agayne. And thys fayth they haue wythout all respecte of theyr C [...] deseruynges / ye and for none other cause then that the me [...]yfull truth of god the father whyche can not lye, hath so promysed and so sworne.

More.

Nowe hath Tyndale here defyned and descrybed vs what he called the chyrche. And for as myche as hys tytell is of hys chapyter, the questyon whyther the chyrche can [...]rre / and that he now for the clerynge of the questyon, de­clareth that there be two chyrches, the tone whyche he sayth that we take for the ch [...]he whyche he calleth the pope and hys genera [...]yō, and say [...] that there is no dowte but that chyrche bo [...]e maye [...]rre and in dede so dothe / and th [...] tother chyrche [...]hy [...]he hy [...]sel [...]e calleth the very chyr­che; ys thys y he now defyn [...]th: it wold s [...]me that he wold [Page v] afferme that thys chyrche whyche hym selfe descrybeth,A were the chyrche that can not erre. wherin what his fynall and resolute sentence is, ye shall in hys other chapyters hereafter folowyng, at a longe length very scantly perceyue / excepte hys wordes be somwhat opened and a lytell more clerely declared, then as it appereth by his wrytyng, hym selfe wolde they sholde be / and nathelesse I truste they shall be.

wherfore to thende ye may the better vnderstāde where about he goeth / & that he longeth to le [...]e vs in derkenesse, and fede vs forth wyth hys hygh solempne folyes that he wolde were not vnderstanden: let vs a lytell examyne the partys of hys dyffynycyon and descrypcyon of the chyrch.

where he sayth that Crystes electe chyrche, ys the hole multytude of all repentaunt synners, that haue the condycyons B forther expressed in hys descrypcyon: we must fyrst aske hym how taketh he there thys worde electe [...] It had ben good reason that he sholde haue declared, whyther he meane electe and chosen as our sauyour. Cryste dyd electe and chose hys chyrche and congregacyō out of the Iewis and the Gentyles, to be dedycate vnto hys seruyce / after whyche maner he fyrste elected and chose hys twelue apo­stles though they were not all fynally good, of whose eleccyon he sayd, ye haue not elected me but I haue elected you / and also sayd vnto them,Iohā. 15. Iohā. 6. Haue I not elected and chosen you twelue, and one of you is a deuyll: or ellys that he meane by the electe chyrche the chyrche of the fynall elec­tes and predestynates to glory, beynge there vnto prede­stynate in the prescience and purpose of god before the creacyon C of the worlde.

Thys poynte whyther he meane that hys hole multy­tude of repentynge synners [...] [...]e the tone electe chyrche or y tother, hath he not exp [...]e [...]ed / but h [...]th lefte vs at large to gesse and arede vppon [...] derke rydles after folowynge, whyche of these two [...] m [...]ane [...]h. How be it for awght that I can se hys descrypcyō [...]greeth wyth neyther of theym bothe [...]

For as for y fyrst [...]y [...]de of elec [...]yon, a [...]ter whych Cryste hath chosen hys cat [...]o [...]ke chy [...]che out o [...] the Iewys [...]nd Gentyls to be hys c [...]che herein [...] thys kynde [...] there penyt [...]ntes [...]nd i [...]pe [...]ytentes [...]the. For penite [...]es are accompted amonge [...]he good / and in [...]hys [...]y [...]che [...]e [Page vi] A there bothe good and badde, as our sauyour sheweth hym selfe in the parables bothe of the felde wyth good corne & cocle,Matth. 13. Matt [...]. 1 [...] and also the nette wyth fysshes good and badde / and the scrypture sheweth by the arch of Noe with bestes clene and vnclene / and Cryste wyth hys aforesayde wordes to his apostles:Iohā. 6. Haue I not chosen you twelue and one of you ys a deuyll.

Now as for y electe chyrch of predestynates yf he speke therof, as it may be verifyed in euery tyme syth it begā as he must yf he speke to the purpose / then are there therin accoūted not onely repētyng synners, but synners also, some yt yet repente them not, & some also yt neuer dyd the thyng wherof they shuld repente / as was our blessed lady whyle she lyued here, and our sauyour hym selfe also for any syn B of hym self. For he was neuer penytent synner / but beyng synlesse hym selfe, paynfully payed for ours. So is not y electe chyrch all repentyng synners onely, except y eyther Cryste were no man or wer [...] also a synner, or els his man­hed not parte of thys chyrche, but the chyrche of predesty­nates hedlesse. And in this I speke of that electe chyrch of predestynates, concernyng onely the cōgregacyon of such as shalbe saued in the kynde of man. For as for to cōsyder angels therin, is very farre fro thys mater.

yet are there also in thys chyrche of electes many that neuer came to the fayth, but are yet enmyes there vnto / as Iewes, Saracenes, or Turkes, not yet conuerted vnto y fayth. And therfore thys electe chyrche wyll in no wyse a­gre wyth the dyffynycyon or descrypcyon of Tyndale. I C wolde that he therfore to gyue his mater more lyght, had shewed vs as I say, which kynde of eleccyon he meaneth.

How be yt we shall gesse at hys mynde as nere as we can and make the best of hys mater / and then se whyther the beste be able to stande [...] He maye seme to meane by Cry­stes electe chyrche of hys descrypcyon [...] a parte of the electe chyrche of the seconde maner / that is to wyt as many ther­of as be repentaunt synners wyth those other condicyons that are expressed in hys des [...]rypcyon. For other then thys I can not deuyne what he shold meane. But then as those repentaunt synners be a parte of the chyrche predestynate / so be they a parte of thys catholyke chyrche here mylytaūt after the fy [...]st kynde of eleccyon, in whych are bothe good and bad / of whych hole nomber the good are y tone parte.

[Page viii]yet leueth he vs after thys waye in a nother dowt / why­ther A the repentynge synners may afterwarde fall to synne agayne, and from repentaunce and so to repentaunce a­gayne, and yet agayne therfro. He leueth vs also in dowt whyther thys electe chyrche of hys descrypcyon maye be deceyued & erre or not. For in these two poyntes he wrap­peth vs vp wyth rydles, that he gyueth vs to rede in other chapyters how they may synne and yet synne not, erre and yet erre not / and redeth hys rydles hym self also so fondly, that an olde wyfe wolde be ashamed to rede suche redles so folysshely by the fyre syde amonge yonge chyldren. And yet in this one poynt whyther the chyrch maye erre or not, is in effecte all the hole mater and purpose of hys boke.

And fynally for all that euer he sayth / he leueth it in dowte whyther his repentaunt synners, syth he graunteth B that though they maye not synne yet they maye synne, and y in lykewyse though they can not erre yet they can erre, be of thys electe chyrche of hys descrypcyon in these tymes onely in whyche they synne not nor erre not / or ellys in all those tymes to, in whyche they bothe synne and erre. And here speke I of suche synne as is of hys nature dedely, though the soule dye not by eternall dampnacyon ther­fore / bycause he repenteth that synne agayne ere he dye. And I speke of that errour also, whyche is of hys nature fynfull and damnable though the soule suffer not eternall dampnacyon therfore / bycause he repenteth that erroure afterwarde, and retourneth agayne to the trewth ere euer hys body dye.

Of all these dowtes the more parte he neuer moueth / C and suche as he moueth in other chapyters after, he so fondely soyleth, that all the worlde maye se that he nothynge seketh but corners to trepe in, where he maye luske and lurke in the derke / out of whych we shall I truste so bryng hym in to the lyght, that hys eyen shall dase to loke theron

But in the meane whyle thys ye se, that how so euer he mene by the electe chyrche of hys repentaūte synners, with all the felyng fayth that he can frame therto: yet syth men can neuer knowe whyche be they, there can no man haue any suretye by that chyrch of the trewe doctryne of god / no more then a man coulde by that vnknowen chyrche know whyche is the trewe scrypture of god. And therfore is this electe chyrche of Tyndals descrypcyon deuysed onely to [Page ix] A [...]ugle wythall, and to deceyue our syght, and not to serue in thys mater to any substancyall purpose.

But yet that it can not onely do no good, but is also dremed out by hym to do myche harme: ye shall playnely perceyue, yf ye consyder what repentaūce and what fayth he meaneth. For these wordes wyll sowne very well in the erys of such symple soules, as do not whyle they rede them cōsyder what maner thynges Tyndale meaneth by them, and what thynge he calleth repentaunce and byleuyng in Cryste wyth a felyng fayth. But on the tother syde / he that consydereth that Tyndale wolde haue vs so to byleue in Cryste, that we shold set hys holy sacramentes at nought, and that we sholde byleue that all crysten people haue hy­therto byleued wronge, that haue byleued that men ought B to be shreuen, or rec [...]yue any penaunce at the prestes hand, or that haue byleued y there ys any purgatory after thys present lyfe, or that put any fayth in the sacrament of the aultare, or any other thynge byleue therof then that it ys onely a sygne memoryall and token of Crystes deth and passyon, and that euery man is in a false bylyefe that wyll any other honour do therto then onely thys bare bylyefe / wherof playnly foloweth that onys to knele or praye ther­to were open and playne idolatrye / and that he wold haue vs also byleue that to saye the masse wyth the holy canon therin, as all crysten realmes do, and so many hundred ye­res haue done were heyghnouse dedely synne / and that it were synne also to byleue y man by good workes wrought in fayth, any rewarde meryteth towarde god / or fynally y C any of the olde holy doctours of Crystes chyrche, synnys Crystes dayes and hys apostles hytherto, were in ye ryght bylyefe before holy Luthers dayes and hys owne / for sure am I that there was neuer none of all them that in bylyef dyd agre wyth these twayne, nor these twayne bytwene thē selfe: he that thys felynge fayth consydereth in Tyndals techynge, shall soone fele that all hys holy solempne tale of all hys felynge fayth ys not worth a fly, but very fay [...]h­lesse heresye.

And also when he hereth hym so sayntly speke of repentynge / and then consydereth that he wolde haue vs rep [...]nt that euer we were shryuen (for shryfte he calleth the false inuencyon of Sathan) and wolde haue vs also to be such as repent that euer they were of the ryght bylefe, and such [Page x] as wolde haue freres and nonnes repente theyr relygyon A and runne out and wedde togyther: he that consydereth thys, shall I saye se that Tyndals electe and chosen chyr­che, is a chyrche of chosen heretykes, of contrary bylyefe to the chyrche of whyche saynte Hierom was a doctour, and saynt Austayne, and saynt Gregory, and saynte Ambrose, and all the other old holy fathers from the apostles dayes hytherto / or els muste Tyndale tell vs ones agayne, some one of all theym that byleued it lawfull, for a monke or a frere professed vnto perpetuall chastyte, to runne out of relygyon and go wedde a nonne.

Now am I glad yet that he cometh forth wyth repen­taunce, at the leste wyse one way or other. For fayth alone was wont to do all thorow all a mannys lyfe. And when it was proued them by playne and euydent scrypture, that B fayth coulde not auayle wythout cheryte / then fell they to glose it and say, that fayth could neuer be wythout it. And then beynge therin repreued playnely by saynt Poule and saynt Iamys both / yet stande they styll by theyr worde,1. Cor. 13. Iacobi. 2. & defende theyr wordes onely by wordes agaynst all reason, & agaynst the playne wordes of god not vnwryten whych they set not by, but the very wryten wordes in playne and euydent scryptures, for all that they saye they byleue no thynge ellys. And in that poynt I byleue them well and in more to. For where they say that they byleue nothyng but scrypture, I thynke they saye trewe / for they byleue no thynge besyde the scrypture, nor yet the scrypture neyther, as theyr owne wrytynges do full clerely declare.

But now syth they say styll that fayth alone suffyseth,C and yet saye that there muste be cheryte to / and now saye there must be repentaunce to: they saye none other thynge in effecte, but y it is mough to haue fayth alone yf a man haue other vertues to / and that it suffyseth to haue fayth alone, so that fayth be not alone: for and it be alone then is it no fayth at all. Is not thys a nother goodly rydle, wher­by Tyndale techeth all thynge playnely?

Nor thys poynt wyll neuer be well patched wyth hys felynge fayth and hystorycall, as ye shall hereafter here when we come to the chapyter.

But yet agayn in the meane whyle, bycause he speketh of repentaunt synners, that they make the electe chyrche of Cryste: I wolde wytte of hym whyther one parte of re­pentynge [Page xi] A muste not be to repente heresyes. If not / then Crystes electe chyrche maye kepe them styll, and be a chyr­che of heretykes. And on the tother syde, yf a man muste repente hys heresyes: then aske I Tyndale agayne, how shall an vnlerned man knowe whyche they be. The prea­cher shall tell theym sayth Tyndale. So saye we to. But what yf y preachers do not agre therin / how shall he know the trewe preachers fro the false? Lette hym loke on the scrypture sayth Tyndale, and therby shall he iudge them by the ryght rule of the worde of god. But therto I saye, that, all thynge that we be bounden to byleue and obserue is not wryten in scrypture, as I haue in the thyrde boke more then playnely by the playne scrypture proued. And besydes that, vnlerned men are not able, nor euery lerned B man neyther, surely to dyscerne and iudge the trewe sence of the scrypture, in a greate thynge growen in debate and controuersye, where playne textes of scrypture seme to speke for bothe the sydes. And therfore it muste nedes be, that there is by god prouyded and lefte some such suretye, as maye brynge vs out of all suche perplexyte. And that is as I haue sayde, hys holy spyryte sent and lefte perpetu­ally wyth hys chyrche, to lede it so by hys owne promyse euer into all necessary trouth,Io [...]. 16. that who so here and byleue hys chyrche, maye be sure that he can not be deceyued / but that yf a false techer wold lede men out of the ryght fayth, the chyrche of Cryste shall reproue hym and condempne hym, and put the people in certentye.1. Ti [...]. [...]. For whyche cause saynt Poule sayth that the chyrche is the fyrme [...]tablyssh [...] ­mente C and the pyller of trouth for the inuyolable suerty of doctryne. And therfore that can neuer be no chyrche but a knowen chyrche.

But then sayth Tyndale, that it is trewe that there is all suretye in the chyrche of Cryste. But he sayth that the chyrch [...] of Cryste is onely the nomber of repentynge syn­ners, that haue the felynge fayth whyche hym selfe descry­beth. Then we aske hym wherby shall a man knowe them, and be sure of them / so that he maye vse them for hys sure and vndoutable iudges bytwene the two contrary prea­chers, of whyche the tone is trewe the tother false.

It maketh no mater sayth he, though ye knowe them not. How shall I then be putte in surety by them, but yf I knowe that they be the chyrche wyth whom god promysed [Page xii] to leue hys holy spyryte / and whom he wylled euery man A to here and to obay. ye shall perceyue it sayth he, by that ye se they be good men, and shewe the frewtes of fayth in theyr lyuynge. I can not be therby sure / syth an ypocryte maye fayne them. And also hym selfe graunteth after in hys chapyter, that they synne and yet synne not / so that though they synne not bycause of theyr felynge fayth, and theyr repentaunce folowynge: yet they maye ryght often do synne, in suche wyse that they maye do and in dede do many suche abomynable dedes, as men be hanged for and worthy for myche lesse / and suche that them selfe shulde for the same, sauynge for theyr felynge fayth be dampned in hell perpetually / from which none hystorycall fayth could kepe them, as Tyndale sayth.

Now then yf he saye trewe / it is impossyble for me to B knowe the electe chyrche of felynge faythfull repentaunte synners, to take the sure iudgement by.

Then yf he walke as it were in a mase, and come to the fyrste poynte agayne, and say it forcheth not, for they shall be decerned by the scrypture it selfe: that gappe haue I so stopped all redy, that he shall stycke styll at a stake & reste hys bones in y busshes ere euer he gete out there. wherfore whē he shall se hym self vnable to defend hys owne chosen vnknowen chyrche, in y poynt in which it sholde specyally serue, that is for y sure techyng of the trew fayth: he shall then fynde none other shyft, but to loke whyther he myght make the catholyke knowen chyrche to fall in the lyke de­fawte / and shall aske vs how we do knowe the trew chyrch of Cryste, by whose doctryne we maye be sure of the ryght C bylyefe. where vnto we shall answere, that therin can no man be deceyued. For it is the comon knowen chyrche of all crysten people, not gone out nor caste oute. Thys hole body bothe of good and badde is the catholyke chyrche of Cryste, whyche is in thys worlde very sikely [...] & hath many sore mēbres / as hath somtyme the naturall body of a man, and some sore astonyed, and for a tyme colde and dede / whyche yet catcheth hete and lyfe agayne, yf it be not pre­cyded and cut of from the body.

Thys catholyke knowen chyrch is that mystycall body be it neuer so syke, whereof the pryncypall hed is Cryste. Of whyche body whyther the successour of saynt Peter be his vycar generall and hed vnder hym, as all crysten nacyons [Page xiii] A haue now longe takē hym / is no parte of this questyō. For to this mater it is inough, y thys body mystycall of Cryste this catholyk chirch, is y body y is animated, hath lyfe spyrytuall, & is enspyred with ye holy spyryt of god yt maketh thē of one fayth in the howse of god,Psalmo. 67. by ledyng thē in to the cōsent of euery necessary trouth of reueled fayth, be they in condycyōs & maners neuer so syke, as longe as they be cō ­formable & content in vnyte of fayth, to cleue vnto ye body.

Of this chyrch can we not be deceyued, nor of the ryght faith can we not be deceyued whyle we cleue to this chirch / syth this chyrch is it in to which god hath gyuē his spyryt of fayth, & in this chirch both good & bad ꝓfesse one fayth. For yf any professe the cōtrary fayth, be it any one man or any one coūtrey: they be controlled, noted, and rep [...]ou [...]d B by the hole body & soone knowen from the body. Now yf it happen any pryuy heretykes to lurke in this body, yet all the whyle, they agre with y body in open professiō of fayth, & teche no thyng cōtrary / they can not begyle vs, though they may by secrete heresyes of theyr hartes, synfully de­ceyue them selfe. And when they teche the cōtrary / then are they as I say reproued opēly by ye body / & eyther reformed & cured, or els cutte of fro the body and casten out therof. So yt this chyrch is knowen well inough / & therfore maye be well vsed as a sure iudge, for to decerne bytwene y trew doctrine & the false, and the trew precher & false, cōcernyng the ryght fayth and the decernyng of the trew word of god wrytē of vnwryten, from ye coūterfete word of man / and in the decernyng of ye ryght vnderstādyng of the scrypture of god, as farforth as of necessyte perteyneth vnto saluacyō.

C And this aduaūtage y I speke of haue we, by y that this chyrch is knowē / where as Tyndals chosen chyrch of repē tyng synners we can neuer know them, but yf we se them walke in our chyrch in processyon with a candell byfore y crosse, or stand before the pulpet with a fagot in theyr nek­kes. And yet can we not knw thē so neyther / for they may seme repentaūt openly, and yet thynke in theyr hartes full shrewdely, as they comēly do. Now wherby we shall be sure yt thys knowē catholyke chyrch, is y very trew chyrch yt is to be byleued / & that no man may be surely byleued ye agreeth not with the fayth of this chyrche / all be it I haue both in my dyaloge & in sondry places of my .iii. formar bokes of this psent worke, well & playnly ꝓued you: yet shall [Page xiiii] I fynally before I fynysshe thys worke by such clere open A markes & tokens shew you wyth euydent reason & playne scrypture furnysshed, that no chylde shall after nede any thynge to dowte therof.

But now consyder in the meane whyle, that Tyndals dyffynycyon or descrypcyon of the chyrch, by whych he calleth it the nomber of all repentynge synners wyth all hys other cōdycyons adioyned therunto / is fyrst full of darke­nesse. And when it is opened [...] it agreed neyther wyth one chyrch nor other. And yet is it by another poynt of his own false doctryne, vtterly destroyed. For he techeth playnly, that who so euer do after baptysme synne onys of purpose wyllyngly, & not onely of wekenes and infyrmyte, he shall neuer be saued / but all his repētaūce after, though he trust neuer so myche in god, & haue after neuer so sure fayth in B hym, shall neuer serue hym to saluacyō but he shalbe fynally dampned as I shall shew you forther after. And then ye se playnly, that his dyffynycyon of hys electe chyrch, is by his owne doctryne destroyed. For the elect chyrch can not be the nōber of all repentyng synners y truste to be saued in Crystes passyon, yf some suche repentyng synners shall neuer be saued by hys passyon as Tyndale playnly lyeth. And therfore syth he hath fayled of his dyffynycyon of the chyrche, and therby loste and spylled all hys purpose: lette vs now consyder whyther he handle any more wysely the remanaunt of hys goodly mater.

Tyndale.

Thys fayth haue they wythout all respecte of theyr owne deseruynges / ye and for none other cause, then that the mercyfull trewth of god the father C whyche can not lye, hath so promysed and so sworne.

More.

I dowte not good reders but ye remember well, that all the doctryne of Crystes chyrche is full of warnynge, that no man sholde put a prowde truste and confydence in hys owne wurkes, nor onys thynke that he can of hym selfe alone without goddes gracious helpe, do any good wurke at all / and greate cause hath to fere and mystruste all hys owne workes, for vnperfyte cyrcumstaunces seldom per­ceyued by hym selfe. And also that in all that a man maye do he doth but hys onely dewtye / and that the beste worke were noughte worth to heuenwarde of the nature of the worke yt selfe, ne were it for the lyberall goodes of god, y [Page xv] A lysteth so hyghly to rewarde it / and yet wolde not rewarde it so, sauynge for the passyon of hys owne sonne. All these thynges and many suche other mo be so dayly taught and preched in the chyrche / that I truste in good fayth that al­moste euery good olde wyfe can tell them.

And therfore it [...]pereth well that Tyndale varyeth not wyth vs for so farre / but that he meaneth a farre for­ther thynge, where he sayth that the electe chyrche trusteth so vtterly to be forgeuyn all synne & mocyons vnto synne, wythout any respecte of theyr owne deseruyng / & playnely meaneth therin (as in other places also he playnely decla­reth hym selfe, whyche I haue in my formar bokes proued and reproued) not onely that men shold not nede, but also that it were synne to go about any good wurke wroughte B wyth grace in fayth, to deserue any thyng toward the get­tynge of full and perfayt forgeuenes.

To thys poynte cometh Tyndals holy felynge fayth, that feleth alwaye full forgyuenesse, wythout any regard or respecte of mannys owne endeuour [...] deserue it. Thys false felynge fayth hath Tyndale taken of Luther / when he and all the rable of theyr secte saye, that fayth of neces­syte bryngeth forth good wurkes, as the frute of the tree of faith. And yet they say ye good wurkes be nought worth and therby make they y tre of fayth lytell better. For what good tre can yt be, wherof ye good frute is noughte worth.

But Tyndale and Luther bothe lye lowde in bothe the poyntes. For bothe maye a man haue the ryght fayth idle and workelesse, and therfore dede and frutelesse. Dede I C saye, not in the nature and substaunce of bylyefe a fayth / but dede as to the attaynyng of saluacyon. And also good wurkes wrought in fayth, hope, and cheryte, be very pro­fytable towarde obtaynynge of forgyuenesse and getynge reward in heuyn / excepte ye scrypture of god be false,Ecc [...]ias [...]icae. 3. when it sayth that as the water quencheth fyre, so doth almoyse dede auoyde synne / and except our sauyour hym selfe saye false, where he sayth, [...]uc [...]. 11. Gyue your superfluouse substaunce in almoyse, and then lo are ye all clene. And in lyke wyse where he promyseth rewarde in heuen in sondry playne places of scrypture,M [...]t [...]. 1 [...]. for good wurkes done here in erth. [...]uc [...]. 1 [...].

Now yf Tyndale answere, that the good workes be nothynge worth of them selfe, nor wythout fayth, as he an­swereth me in his answere to ye thyrd boke of my dyaloge: [Page xvi] then maye euery chylde se that he is dreuen to the harde A wall, & fayne to seke a shamfull shyfte. For what thynge is awght worth of yt selfe to heuenward, without goddes grace and the greate goodnesse of god? No fyry cheryte, though men wolde burne for goddes sake, coude deserue heuen of yt selfe wythout the lyberall goodnesse of god. For as saynt Poule sayth,Roma. 8. the passyons of thys worlde be not worthy to wynne the glory to come, that shalbe shewed vppon vs.

And yf he saye that good workes be nought worth, by­cause they be nought worth without fayth / so myght he as well saye ye fayth were nought worth, bycause it is nought worth wythout cheryte. So that ye maye playnely se that he seketh nothynge but shyftes / whyche wyll yet serue of nought when he hath all together done.B

For ye maye fynally perceyue, that though euery man maye well fere that the workes which hym selfe hath done semed they neuer so good, were yet for some lacke vppon hys parte in y doynge, so vnperfyt in the depe secret syght of god, that they were vnworthy to serue hym or be any thynge rewarded / and also that were they neuer so pure & perfyt, they were not yet worthy [...]uche rewarde but of god­des lyberall goodnesse: yet is it a very false fayth and a pestylent heresye, to byleue as Tyndale here techeth vs, y god wyll saue suche as maye worke wythout any respecte or regarde vnto theyr deseruynge / as though he rought not whyther they dyd good or yll, but wyll saue all suche as hym lyste do they what they lyste, onely bycause hym lyste / and that hym selfe so lysteth for none other cause, but C onely bycause he hath so promysed and sworen.

For surely, neyther is the promyse the cause as I haue in myne other boke shewed / but ye goodnesse of god whych caused hym so to promyse. Nor also he hath not so sworne nor so promysed neyther, that he wyll saue man wythout any regarde of good wurkes / but hath bothe promysed & sworne the clene contrary, that but yf we wurke well yf we maye,Psalmo. 10 [...]. or repent that we dyd not and be in purpose to do / ellys shall our fayth stande vs in lytell stede,Matthei. 25. but greately aggreue and encrease the payne of our dampnacyon. And now that hys fayth is proued very playne false and fayth­lesse / it is a worlde to se how ryally he runneth forth in the prayse, as though it were proued trew.

A Tyndale.
[Page xvii]

And thys fayth and knowlege is euerlastynge lyfe / and by thys we be borne a newe, and made the sonnes of god, and obteyne forgyuenesse of synnes, and are translated from deth to lyfe, and from the wrath of god vnto hys loue and fauour. And thys fayth is the mother of all trouth, and bryngeth wy [...]h her the spyryte of all truth, whyche spyryte purgeth vs as from all sy [...]e, euyn so from all lyes and errour noysome and hurt [...]ull. An [...] thys f [...]yth is the fundacyon layde of the apostles and prophetes, whereon Paull sayth Ephe. 2. that we are bylte, and therby of the howseholde of god. And thys fayth is the rocke wheron Cryste bylte hys congregacyon.

More.

Lo what a prayse he hath made you of thys fayth, that feleth that folke sholde nede to do no good workes. How B he calleth it euerlastyng lyfe to come, to the bare knowlege of that fayth that shall take away from vs all respecte and regarde of deseruynge any rewarde or thanke, the rather for any good wurkes. For yf men myght haue any suche respecte / then were it greate parell leste men wolde fall the more to do them. For other greate parell I se none, consy­derynge y we be well taught to put no proude confydence in them, but referre all the thanke of them to god by whose helpe and grace we do them.

Now wote ye well that no good man can deny, but that for lacke of suche wurkes men shall be dampned, as Cryst sayth hym selfe in the gospell.Matt [...]. 25. And harde it were that the good nature of god beynge more redy to rewarde then to punysshe / wolde punysshe vs for the lackynge and not rewarde C vs for the hauynge / namely syth hym selfe sayth in the same gospell,Matt [...]. 25. that he shall gyue men heuen for theyr almoyse ded.

But Tyndale as he denyeth the tone, so denyeth he the tother to, and wyth some fonde glose wyll auoyde the go­spell and all / and then goo boldely forth wyth hys fayth & boste it, and saye thys fayth and knowlege is euerlastynge lyfe. But all faythfull folke wyll saye agayne, thys fayth and knowlege ys euerlastynge deth. For thys fayth hath Luther and frere Huskyn bothe, and yet be farre from euerlastynge lyfe. For bysyde that abomynable heresye it selfe, agaynste all regarde of good wurkes / they be not a­greed in bylyefe concernynge the sacrament of the awter / the tone byleuynge it to be very brede [...] the tother no thyng loweth [Page xviii] ellys but brede, and false bothe twayne. And Tyndale fo­loweth A the falser of them bothe. And so thys fayth delyue­reth them not fro lyes, besydes yt they bothe and Tyndale wyth them, do byleue yf they lye not, that it is lawfull for monkes & freres to breke theyr vowed chastyte and runne out and wedde nonnes. whyche poynt of false fayth, ys no parte of the fundacyon that the apostles byelded vppon / but saynt Poule preched the contrary, sayeng that vowed wydowes wyllynge to wedde shold haue dampnacyon / by cause they had frustrated and broken theyr forma [...] fayth,1. Timoth. 5. that is to wytte theyr fayth gyuen to god in theyr vowe of abstynence from all carnall knowlege of man / agaynste whyche fayth they wolde now wedde, and geue a seconde fayth vnto man in maryage. But now goth Tindale forth wyth hys tale, & wolde seme to proue it trew by scrypture.B

Tyndale.

Cryste asked hys apostles Matth. 17. whom they toke hym for. And Peter an [...]wered for them all sayenge, I say that thou arte Cryste the sonne of the lyuynge god, that arte come in to thys worlde. That is, we byleue that thou arte he that was promysed vnto Abraham, shulde come and blesse vs and delyuer vs. How be it Peter yet wyste not by what meanes / but now it is opened thorow out all the world, that thorow the offeryng of his body and blo [...]e

More.

Here is it necessary that euery wyse reder marke well & consyder, the cause and purpose of Tyndale, in bryngyng in thys confessyon of saynt Peters fayth / where he sayde thou arte Cryste the sonne of the lyuynge god, that arte comen C into thys worlde.

ye shall vnderstande that Tyndale and hys mayster Marten and hys felowys, for as myche as they be fallen from the ryght bylyef in many great artycles of our fayth / and consyderynge that wyth such slender prouys as Tyndale bryngeth for hys parte, and therto so playnely repro­ueth, euery good crysten man yt any care hath of hys owne soule wylbe sore afrayed to put it in iuperdye of dampna­cyon by fallynge in any poynt from the fayth of Crystes hole catholyke chyrche, for the worde of a fonde wedded frere or any fonde felow of hys: he deuyseth here to take a waye that fere, and to make m [...]n byleue at the leste wyse, that so a man byleue the thynge that Peter then confessed / [Page xix] A it suffyseth ynough for saluacyon, though he byleue no forther artycles besyde. And thus farre suffyseth for hym, to make folke the lesse aferde to draw towarde hym. But bryngynge vs onys so farre forward / then wyll he forther for his purpose say, that not onely no man is bounden vp­pon damnacyon to byleue any more, but that forther it is dampnable in some thynges to byleue more / and that in some thynges it neyther auayleth nor hurteth to byleue any more. And therfore it is wysdome to stay well our selfe in the begynnynge. For Tyndale sayth, as I haue in my fyrste boke shewed you, many thynges agaynst dyuerse of the sacramentes, whych he sayth is dedely synne to byleue. And here he putteth for fayth inough, the fayth that saynt Peter cōfessed. And in hys chapyter answered in my thy [...]d B boke of thys worke, whyther the apostles lefte any thynge vnwryten that were necessary to saluacyon / there sayth he that to byleue or not byleue the assumpcyon of our lady or her perpetuall virginyte and many suche other mo, is but a bylyefe of an hystory and nothynge doth perteyne vnto saluacyon.

And hereafter in his other chapyter, how a crysten man can not erre and how he maye yet erre / in that chapyter he sayth that the very crysten men can not erre in any thynge that sholde be agaynst the promyses whyche are in Cryste / and in other thynges theyr errours be not vnto dampna­cyon, though they be neuer so greate. wherof he by and by putteth ensample of the perpetuall vyrginyte of our lady / in the not bylyefe wherof he sayth that a man beynge ledde C of ignoraunce by the wordes of the gospell, to byleue that she were not a perpetuall vyrgyne, myght in case for lacke of the contrary techynge dye in that mysse bylyefe and yet take none harme therby, bycause it hurteth not the redem­cyon that is in Crystes bloude. For though she had none but Cryste. I am (sayth Tyndale) therfore ne [...]er the more saued, n [...]y­ther yet the lesse though she had had / and in suche lyke an hundreth t [...]at p [...] ­keth not a mannes fayth from Cryste, they myghte erre and yet be neuer the lesse saued, though the contrary were wryten in the gospell.

Lo here haue I welbeloued readers, no thynge letted partely to repete agayne hys wordes wryten in hys other chapyter before, partely to anticypate hys wordes wryten in hys othe chapyter. After whyche wordes of hys I haue out of bothe places taken into thys / to the entent that all [Page xx] be it I partely haue and partely shall, touch them in theyr A owne proper places: yet ye sholde se the hole somme and effecte of thys tale concernynge the fayth byfore your face layed to gether. whyche he draweth in peces and pulleth into sondry partes / bycause he wolde by hys wyll fayne stele awaye from vs in the darke and leue vs wythout any playne perceyuynge of hys vngracyous mynde.

But now that I haue layed in effecte all hys hole opy­nyon together as towchynge the fayth (sauyng hys onely dyfference and dyuysyon of hystorycall fayth and felynge fayth, which I shall reserue vnto hys proper place) I shall a lytell examyne thys fayth of his, that ye may loke theron in the lyght, and se whyther it be suffycyent for your saluacyon or not.

Fyrste in thys fayth that saynt Peter confessed is neuer B a worde of purgatory.

Now dowte I not but that Tyndale when he redeth thys worde, wyll well and merely laugh therat, and saye no more there nedeth. For that fayth wyll he saye wyll put out and quenche the fyre of purgatory clene.

Then wyll we aske hym how wyll he laugh at the fyre of hell / for of that fyre is there no thynge spoken in that cō fessyon neyther, but that he myghte for all that confessyon wene well inough that there were none hell. If Tyndale wyll saye nay / for he muste nedes byleue that the thynge from whyche Cryste the sonne of the lyuynge god was co­men into the worlde to redeme mankynde, muste nedes be hell / and that therfore Peters confessyon includeth of ne­cessyte y bylyefe of hell: I answere Tyndale agayne that C therin was no necessyte. For Peter myghte byleue at that tyme for any worde that was in hys confessyon, that Cry­stes comynge was onely to redeme vs not from hell but from the losse of heuyn / from whyche he myght thynke peraduenture that all mankynde were bannysshed vnto suche a place as was Limbus patrum though out of payne, yet sus­pyrynge and syghynge after the syghte of god and ioy of heuen / and into suche estate as chyldren lyue in that dye vnbaptysed. whyche though they entre not heuyn, bycause they dye the chyldren of wrath vnreconcyled: yet the mer­cyfull anger of god dreueth them not downe into sensyble payne and to the felynge of the infernall fyre.

Thys fayth myghte perad [...]enture s [...]ynte Peter haue, [Page xxi] A for any thynge spoken of in his confessed fayth / ye and myghte haue therwyth also a bylyefe, that for actuall syn­nes men were punysshed after thys lyfe some lesse whyle some lenger, and yet none euerlastyngly / but euery man at length brought vnto peace and reste though neuer no man to the blesse of heuen, but onely by crystes commyng. And thus myghte saynte Peter haue rather a bylyefe of purgatory then of hell, for any worde mencyoned in hys confes­syon, wherin he confesseth not the bylyefe of eyther other. Saynte Peter also nothynge there confessed of Crystes passyon, descencyon into hell, resurreccyon, nor of hys as­censyon / whyche thynges be not onely pryncypall poyntes of our fayth, but also some such as goddes promyse specy­ally dependeth vppon.

B Unto whyche promyses Tyndale restrayneth all our necessary fayth. How be it of trouth Tyndale restrayneth [...]t therin to sore. For then we be not bounden to byleue that the holy goste were equale with ye father and the sonne, for yt was no promyse made vnto vs. And yet are we boun­den to byleue that trewth, wherof is also nothynge spo­ken in Peters confessed fayth.

Therfore yt wyll be very harde (yf impossyble be hard) for Tyndale to sustayne that the fayth whyche saynte Pe­ter confessed than, were suffycyent to serue euery cryst [...]n man now. And therfore lette no man take any boldenesse vppon Tyndales tale, to thynke as he wolde haue hym, that onely the thynge that Peter there confessed were inough now to byleue / and that in all other thynges that C the chyrch byleueth, whyche Cryste and hys holy spyryte haue taught hys chyrch synnes, were but thynges indyfferent, & no thyng forced whyther they were byleued or not.

Tyndale shall be constrayned to come to thys euyn by hys owne wordes, all be it that he affermeth for faste and sure somewhat more then he maye make good [...] For he sayth that Peter ment by his wordes / we byleue that thou arte he that was promysed vnto Abraam, sholde come and blesse vs and delyuer vs. And yet he sayth, Peter wyste not by what meanes Cryste sholde delyuer vs. But nowe it is open he sayth thorow out all the worlde, that thorow the offerynge of hys body and bloude.

Now yf Peter at that tyme knewe not the thynge that muste now nedes be byleued, vppon payne of damnacion: [Page xxii] ye maye therby se that the fayth whyche Peter confessed A then, is not inough now for euery man to be saued by / but we be bounden to the bylyefe also of such thynges as god hath reueled and made open to be byleued vnto hys chyr­che any tyme synnes. Or ellys muste Tyndale tell vs at what tyme god bade ho, and gaue vs leue to byleue hym no ferther, what so euer he wolde ferther saye to vs.

Consyder yet also that Tyndale agreeth, that the very trew crysten of hys electe vnknowen chyrche / do byleue the artycle of the perpetuall vyrginyte of our lady as soon as they be taught it, and knowledge theyr formar errour / wherby he graunteth that he whyche doth not so is no [...]e of the electes. Then saye I that theruppon it foloweth by hys owne wordes, that the artycle of the perpetuall virginyte of our lady is a necessary artycle of our fayth.B

And thus alwaye muste Tyndale vppon hys owne wordes, confesse that all the artycles reueled ferther by Cryste vnto hys chyrche, muste be byleued as fermely as the fayth taat was by Peter confessed / or ellys we be not onely dyscharged of the bylyefe of our ladyes perpetuall vyrginyte, whyche Tyndale is now yet broughte vnware to graunte for an artycle necessary syth it is now taught and knowen / but also of the bylyefe of Crystes deth, des­cencyon, resurreccyon, ascencyon, and of the godhed of the holy goste, wyth dyuerse other necessary poyntes mo.

But here it is to be consydered, that saynte Peter in cō ­fessynge Cryste to be the sonne of the lyuynge god / dyd cō ­fesse the very poynte wheruppon all the hole fayth han­geth. For in that poynte alone he confesseth that all hys C doctryne muste nedes be byleued for trew, and all hys cō ­maundementes fulfylled. And theruppon it foloweth fer­ther, that syth Tyndale wyll byleue no more of hys doc­tryne then he can fynde wryten in the scrypture,Iohā. vltimo. where as the scrypture it selfe sayth that all was neuer wryten / nor wyll not also byleue and obaye Crystes chyrch accordyng to Crystes commaundement / nor wyll not so myche as knowe it,Matth. 18. Lucae. 10. but fondely frameth an vnknowen, whom he for lacke of knowledge can neyther byleue nor obaye: yt foloweth I saye that Tyndale byleueth no pece of the fayth that saynte Peter confessed. And so he doth but pra­tle and prate of felynge fayth, wythout the felynge of any fayth at all, or any trewe bylyefe hystorycall or other.

[Page xxiii] A And yet goth he forth in the boste of that artycle of the fayth, whiche as hym selfe confesseth was out of Peter his confessyon. For he sayth that saynt Peter was not ware of Crystes passyon when he made that confessyon.

Tyndale.

That offerynge of Crystes body and bloude, is a satisfaccyon for the synne of all that repente, and a purchasynge of what so euer they can aske to kepe them in fauour, and that they synne no more.

More.

Treuth is it that the passyon of Cryste and offerynge vp of hym selfe vnto hys father vppon the crosse, is a satysfaccyon for the synne of all that repente / so that we repente a ryght and effectually, by confessyon, contrycyon, and by B penytencyall dedes / reuengynge our synnes vppon our selfe wyth good workes of cheryte, ye more largely encrea­ced towarde our neyghbours, doynge frutefull penaunce, bryngynge forth the frutes of penaunce, and accordynge to the coūsayle of saynt Iohn̄ Baptyst,Matthei. 3. not sleyght frutes, symple, and syngle, but frutes good, greate, and worthy / and yet not of them selfe worthy, but suche as the satysfaccyon of Cryste maketh worthy, wythout whyche we coude no thynge satysfye / but wyth whyche we maye, syth hys pleasure is that we so sholde, and not so take his deth for so full satysfaccyon of all to gether, that we sholde therfore be carelesse and slouthfull to do any penaunce our selfe for our owne synne.

Tyndale wyll saye to thys that he can be content, that C we sholde do good dedes but not by waye of penaunce for our synne / and that we sholde somtyme fast and otherwyse afflycte our fleshe, to the entent to tame our fleshe agaynst the synne to come / but nothynge to punyshe it the more for any synne that is paste.

Now is thys teachynge of Tyndale myche lyke, as thoughe he wolde aduyse vs, be neuer the better by­cause thou haste be noughte, do neuer the better bycause thou haste done euyll, runne neuer y faster forth in vertue, bycause thou haste longe sytten styll in synne.

But saynt Poule agaynst Tyndals doctrine, ran forth the faster bycause he began later, and toke the more payne for the fayth, bycause he had ben a persecutour of y fayth. And though he neuer thought thus, yf I hadde ben soner [Page xxi] conuerted I wolde haue done lesse good: yet had he thys A mynde, that bycause he began so late he wold do y more / & bycause he had ben bad,Roma. 6 he wolde be the better / as hym self counsayleth other, as ye haue exhybyted and gyuen your membres to serue vncl [...]nes and iniquyte, from iniquite to iniquite / so now agayne exhibyte and gyue your membres to serue ryghteousnes, that ye maye be sanctyfyed.

Tyndale.

And Cryste answered vppon thys rocke I wyll byelde my congregacyon / that is vppon thys fayth. And agaynst the rocke of this fayth, can no synne, no hell, no deuyll, no lyes, none errour preuayle. [...]or what so euer any man hath commytted / yf he repente and come to thys rocke he is safe. And that thys fayth is the onely waye by the whyche the chyrche goeth vnto god, and vnto the enherytaunce of all hys rychesse / testyfye all the apostles and prophetes, and all the scrypture wyth sygnes and myracles, and all the bloud B of martyrs. And who so euer go to god and to forgyuenesse of synnes or salua­cyon by any other way then thys / the same is an heretyke out of the ryghte waye, and not of Crystes chyrche.

More.

Lo these wordes of Tyndale seme very gaye and glo­ryouse. But when ye shall well examyne them / as gaye as the hed glytereth wyth the pretexte of Crystes owne holy wordes, yet shall ye fynde the tayle of hys tale as poysened as any serpent. For where he bosteth and sayth, Agaynst the rocke of this fayth can no synne, no hell, no deuyll, no lyes, nor none errour pre­uayle / for what so euer synne any man hath commytted, yf he repent and come to thys rocke he is safe: ye maye not forgete that he meaneth all way, that he whyche repenteth and cometh to the rocke of thys fayth is safe for all hys synnes, wythout confessyon C or any endeuour thorow good workes towarde satysfac­cyon / and so hys hole tale is a false heresye.

ye shall also consyder that hys tale hangeth euyll to ge­ther / and the wordes by whyche he proueth that agaynste the rocke of thys fayth, there can no synne, nor no deuyll, nor none errour, preuayle, do not proue that poynte no thynge at all. For though it were trewe that he sayth, that what so euer synne a man haue commytted, yf he repente & come to the rocke of thys fayth he is saufe: yet myght the deuyll preuayle agaynst the rocke of y fayth / syth it myght be that the deuyll myght brynge a man hauyng that fayth in to a dedely synne that he sholde happely neuer repente. And therfore yf Tyndale wyll bost that the deuyll can not [Page xxii] A in any person preuayle agaynste the rocke of that fayth / but that the rocke of that fayth shall saue any man yt onys geteth vp theron: he maye not set If nor And therunto / but he must tell vs then, that eyther who so stande vppon that rocke shall not synne at all, or ellys that he shall be sure to repente hys synne, or fynally that synne he neuer so faste he shall be saufe inough whether he repente or not. For ellys may the deuyll preuayle agaynst y rocke of that fayth, by bryngynge a man that standeth on it in to mortall synne whyche he shall neuer repent.

In lyke wyse where he sayth that none errour can pre­uayle agaynst y rocke of this fayth, that saynt Peter there confessed: I wolde fayne wyt whyther he meane that who so euer onys byleue it, can neuer fall fro that bylyefe, nor B by any errour byleue the contrary / or els that a man maye fall fro it by errour / but then yf he repente and returne a­gayne therto he shall be saufe. If he meane in the fyrst maner, he muste then put away his If / and not saye yf he re­pente hys errour and retourne agayne to the rocke of that fayth, then he shall be saufe / for as mych as by that mea­nyng he shall neuer fall in errour, and therfore shall neuer nede to repente. But then mu [...]e he proue vs by scrypture that pryuylege gyuen of god to euery man that hath onys goten that fayth / whych poynt he shall neuer proue whyle he lyueth, but that a man that hath it, maye by hys owne defaut, malyce, or neclygence, eyther at the instygacyon of the deuyll, or of suche heretykes as are warse then the de­uyll, fall agayne therfro / as many hath done ere thys that C onys byleued full ryght, tyll the spyryte of pryde, enuy, and malyce, blowen into theyr hartes by the deuyll or the de­uyls instrumentes, haue brought them in to the wronge.

Now yf he meane in the secunde maner, that is to saye that a man whyche hath that fayth may fall therfro / but for all that the gatys of hell can not preuayle agaynst any man that onys hath it, bycause he that falleth from it shall be saufe yf he repente hys errour and retourne agayn to it: yf he meane thus he sayth nothynge to purpose, excepte he saye whyche he shall neuer proue, that who so haue it and fall from it, shall be sure that he shall repente and retourne agayne / for ellys the gates of hell may preuayle agaynste hym for lacke of repentynge and retournynge.

And then yet forther, yf he saye whyche he shall neuer [Page xxvi] proue that who so euer onys haue that fayth, yf he fall frō A it shall be sure to repente and retourne agayne [...] and so shall be saufe by repentynge: he muste then as I sayde before put awaye hys If / and not say yf he repente, but he muste saye boldely that he surely shall repente and retourne, and so by repentynge and fayth be saued.

And thus good reders ye se that thys man fareth as one that walked barefote vppon a felde full of thornys, that woteth not where to trede.

I wolde be very loth to myssetake hym, or wyllyngly to lette passe and dyssymule any sense that he myghte meane in hys owne wordes, by whyche hys sayenge myght be sa­ued and be borne. But in good fayth, I se no ferther thyng that he myght po [...]syble meane in hys wordes, y hell gates shall not preuayle agaynst the roche of that fayth, but this B that I haue all redy shewed you / syth he meneth it of eue­ry man, that hell gates shall not preuayle agaynst ye rocke of that fayth in any man / excepte he wolde meane that a man may fall from that fayth, and neuer after repente nor turne agayne / but yet the gates of hell can not preuayle agaynste the rocke of that fayth, bycause a man can not synne all the whyle he kepeth that fayth. And yf he meane so / yet sayth he then as false as any thyng can be false. For saynt Poule sayth playnely,1. Cor. 13. that he maye kepe fayth and yet fall from cheryte. whyche thyng yf Tyndale glose and say, that then hys fayth is dede, & a dede fayth is no fayth / and that therfore whyle he kepeth fayth he can not synne, bycause that when he synneth he kylleth hys fayth: I an­swere that though fayth by synne wax dede, it waxeth not C dede in the nature of fayth or bylyefe / no more then y soule that dyeth by dedely synne, waxeth dede in y nature of the soule, but is a quycke soule styll as he was before, though he be oute of grace / as the dede fayth is out of the lyuely workes of cheryte,1. Timoth. 5. and is as saynt Poule sayed of wantō wydowes, that the wydow which lyueth in delyces is dede euen whyle she lyueth.

But now yf he meane but so, that fayth is so stronge of it selfe for our saluacyon, that synne nor errour can not preuayle agaynste it, bycause fayth wyll alwaye preuayle a­gaynste them tyll some of them entre in and kyll it: thys were a goodly boste of hym to saye, that the chyrch be non [...] but electes, and all that be electes haue the ryght bylyefe [Page xxvii] A whyche saynt Peter confessed / and they maye be bolde and sure that they whyche haue that fayth be goddes electes, and in hys fauour, and euer shalbe by reason of that fayth. For Cryste sayed that vppon the rocke, that is to wyt vp­pon that fayth he wolde byelde hys chyrch, & that agaynst the rocke of this fayth the gates of hell shall not preuayle, that is to saye agaynste this fayth can no synne, no hell, no deuyll, no lyes, no errour preuayle / for there shall no synne nor no errour preuayle agaynste thys fayth but yf it kyll thys fayth. Tyndale to put a man in [...]uerty of heuen by y strength of fayth, in thys facyon that none errour shall preuayle agaynste fayth, as longe as the fayth preuayleth a­gaynste it, nor tyll the fayth be the febler and be ouercomē and kylled: doth myche lyke as though he wolde saye to B you, be bolde I warraunt you & fere no deth, for you haue lyfe in you / & as longe as your lyfe lasteth you can neuer be dede / and lyke wyse as longe as ye kepe the trew fayth ye can neuer be false heretykes / nor as longe as ye stande styll in the state of saluacyon ye can neuer be dampned. Here were a goodly tale were it not? And syth that neyther thys may serue hym nor any that I haue towched before / and vtterly I can not diuine what he myghte mene ellys, takynge the waye yt he taketh, in swaruyng fro the knowē catholyke chyrche vnto hys vnknowen chyrche of electes, whom he calleth all repentaunt synners that byleue the fayth that saynt Peter confessed: I can not perceyue nor I trowe no man ellys, but that hys wordes wyll euyll stande to gether.

C And yet when he hath thus wysely handeled it / then as though the mater were well and suffycyently proued, goth he forth wyth the boste and sayth.

Tyndale.

That thys fayth is the onely waye, by the whyche the chyrche of Cryste goth vnto god, and vnto the enherytaunce of all rychesse / testyfye all the a­postles, and prophetes, and all the scrypture, wyth sygnes and myracles, and all the bloude of martyrs. And who so euer goth vnto god and forgyuenesse of synnes or saluacyon, by any other way then thys / the same is an heretyke out of the ryght waye and not of Crystes chyrche.

More.

Lo here be lusty hyghe wordes eyther false or ellys of lytell effecte. For yf he meane that no man may go to saluacyon by any other thynge, wythout thys fayth that [...]aynte [Page xxviii] Peter professed / then be they trew. But then are they to no A purpose spoken, nor haue no place in thys mater, in which he reproueth the knowen chyrch, in that they go by confes­syon, contrycyon, workes of penaunce, & workes of mercy, towarde the remyssyon of the dette of theyr payne and sa­tysfaccyon. For hym selfe can not saye naye, but that we do all agre that wyth all that euer we can do, we can not gete forth one ynche to heuenward, without the fayth that saynt Peter confessed.

Now yf he meane not that waye, but that we be playne heretykes and oute of Crystes chyrche, yf hauynge that fayth that saynte Peter confessed, we go to heuenwarde wyth any other thyng bysyde then testyfye all the apostles and prophetes, and all the scrypture and sygnes and myracles, & all the bloude of martyrs: then Tyndale is a starke B heretyke in so sayenge. For all these wyll testyfye, that we muste byleue many thynges more then saynte Peter dyde there confesse / or ellys we shall not onely be dyscharged of byleuynge the sacramentes of penaunce, confyrmacyon, extreme vnccyō, order, and matrymony / but baptysme also and the sacrament of the aulter to. For of none of all these dyd saynt Peter make any mencion in his cōfessyon there / nor so myche as of Crystes deth neyther, wherof as Tyn­dale sayth he had at that tyme no knowlege. So that in Tyndales affermynge that the onely fayth there by Peter confessed, is suffycyent and the onely waye to heuyn: we shall haue Tyndale hym selfe to testyfye y Tyndale hym selfe sayth vntrewe.

yet wolde I fayne in good fayth fynde and brynge it C forth, yf I coulde any thyng ymagine, that he myght seme to mene ryght / nor neuer wyll I wyttyngly for the prefer­ment of my part, cōstrue myne aduersaryes wordes wrōg. And therfore, what yf we myghte vnderstande Tyndale thus, as though he ment that the fayth there confessed by Peter is for euery man suffycient / bycause that who so by­leue that Cryste is the sonne of the lyuynge god, it can not be but that he shall byleue also that he is trewe in all hys wordes / and therfore he that so byleueth can not fayle to byleue therwyth / all that euer Cryst shall teche hym.

All be it that thys wyll not very fully serue hym, and also hym selfe speketh no thynge of it: yet is this as helpe me god the best glose that I can deuyse for hym. But now [Page xxix] A doth hym selfe caste awaye thys defence / when he sayth in the seconde chapyter folowynge, that there is none errour noysome, but yf it be agaynste the promyses / so that in all other thynges he graunteth and affermeth playnely by ex­presse wordes yt a man may erre wythout any parell, euyn though that the trouth contrary to hys errour be wryten in holy scrypture, w [...]che is a meruelouse worde in myne ere. For by thys ye may se, that he agreeth that a man may byleue yt Cryst is goddes sonne, & yet byleue the contrary of some thynges that Cryste shall tell hym, though he tell it hym in scrypture. And therfore he wyll ye se well none of my glose, bycause he wyll not stande in my daynger for it.

And in dede, all be it hym selfe shall for hym selfe neuer fynde a better / yet myne wyll not suffycyently serue hym B neyther. For a man myght byleue that Cryste were goddes sonne, and therby byleue also all that Cryste wolde teche hym. But yet myghte it be that he wolde byleue no more, then those thynges onely that Cryste wolde teche hym personally present wyth hym by his owne mouth. For though he byleued that Cryste were goddes sonne, and wolde by­leue therfore all that he wolde tell hym: yet myghte he for all that mystruste and not byleue all other men, that wolde eyther in word or wrytyng tell hym a tale as tolde to them by Crystes owne mouth. ye & this myght he do, all though they preued it wyth myracles / yf he were of Tyndals sto­make, that can as the Iewys coulde, [...] ascrybe goddes my­racles to Belzabub, and call goddes hygh meruelouse workes illusyons and wonders of the deuyll / as he calleth all C the myracles wrought by god in hys chyrche synnes the apostles dayes.

Thys myghte one do that byleued Cryste to be goddes sonne, and to haue redemed vs also by his bloud. And this doth in dede both Tyndale & Marten hys mayster, which byleue of Crystes wordes no more then is wryten / nor of the wryten wordes no more then they lyste / and the rema­naunt but as they lyste, syth they draw them to what sense they lyste, agaynste all the olde holy doctours, and all the chyrche of Cryst. And thus it appereth yt neyther my glose nor any glose ellys, can saue Tyndals tale from playne pestylent heresye / bothe in that he sayth there nedeth no more to be byleued, and also in that he sayth that the by­lyefe alone is suffycyente for saluacyon / and that yt [Page xxx] is heresye to saye that bysyde the bylyefe, any man vnto A saluacyon shold nede any thynge ellys. For though he put in for shame repentaunce therunto, wyth Iffes as ye se: yet shall ye perceyue as well in hys chapyters folowynge, as in thys same chapyter after, that he putteth fayth alone for suffycyent, and repentaunce as a shadowe that neuer can but folowe it. And yet all hys thynges euer so dar­kely, that he wolde fayne leue hym selfe some startynge hole.

But surely yt ys harde for hym to starte out fro these playne wordes of hys owne: who so euer go to god by any other waye, then thys fayth that saynte Peter confessed / the same is an heretyke out of the ryght waye, and not of Crystes chyrche. For thys is no more to saye, but who so euer bysyde the bare bylyefe, wyth as bare repentynge, adde confessyon, or for synne punysshe hym B selfe by penaunce, or doth the better after bycause he hath done euyll byfore, and hopeth that god shall eyther re­warde hym the more, or haue the more mercy on hym, or in purgatory punysshe hym the lesse: he is a starke here­tyke. And of trouth so he is in dede yf thys false tale be trewe / and all trewe men, and all holy sayntes, and all holy scrypture false.

But now gothe he forthe, not in the profe but in the prayse, and sayth.

Tyndale.

For thys knowlege maketh me a man of the chyrche.

More.

whyche knowledge? the knowledge that a man nedeth no mo artycles in hys fayth now, then saynt Peter confes­seth C then? and that he maye not bysyde repentaunce and bylyefe, vse any other waye to heuen / that is to wytte he maye not therwythall, vse as a waye to heuen or to remys­syon, any sacramentall shryfte, or penytencyall workes, or dedes of cheryte towarde satysfaccyon? The knowledge of thys fayth maketh Tyndale a man of the chyrche as he sayth. But of whyche chyrche trowe ye? truely not of the chyrch of Cryste, whych bysyde that fayth hath instytuted ye fayth in his blessed sacramentes & dyuers other artycles besyde / & which hath playnely declared yt all be it ye know­lege of hym & hys pleasure by fayth, be such a way toward heuen, yt without it we cā not come thyther: yet if we ioyne not to y knowlege good dedes or purpose of good workes [Page xxxi] A neyther can that knowlege nor repentaunce neyther serue vs for a suffycyent waye to heuen. And therfore Tyndale is not by thys knowlege made a man of Crystes trewe chyrche / but syth he is content wyth the bare knowledge and setteth all good workes at so short, he is made therby a man of the false chyrch of the deuyll, that is a lyar hymselfe and father of all suche lyars.

Tyndale.

The chyrche is Crystes body Collos [...]. 1. And euery person of the chyrche is a member of Cryste. Ephe. 5. Now it is no member of Cryste, that hath not Crystes spyryte in it / as it is no parte of me nor member of my body, wherin my soule is not present and quyckeneth it. And then yf a man be none of Crystes, he is not of the chyrche.

More.

B Here Tyndale runneth in iuglynge, by equyuocacyon of thys worde chyrche. For where as hym selfe hath byfore thys tyme, confessed in wrytyng in thys same boke to whi­che I answere now, that the chyrch in many places of holy scrypture is the hole multytude that professe the fayth of Cryste, whyther they be good or badde: here he fareth as though there were no man of the chyrche, but onely good folke alone in whom is the spyryte of Cryste / wyth an en­sample put of the body, hauyng some dede parte hangyng theron, wherin were not the soule to quycken it and gyue it lyfe, whyche therfore he sayth is no parte of the body. But he forgeteth that somtyme there is some member a­stoyned and lacketh bothe lyfe and felynge / whyche yet by the reason that it is not clene cut of and caste awaye, recey­ueth C after lyfe and felynge agayne / as many a dedely syn­ner doth in the body of Crystes chyrche take lyfe agayne, that hath in synne lyen full longe dede.

But now is he yet of thys mynde, that the fayth whych hym selfe hath descrybed, is the thynge that it onys goten and hadde of any man / kepeth in the spyryte of god so fast in hys harte, that he ys surely a quycke member of the chyrche that ys Crystes body / and that he can not lese that fayth nor that spyryte at any tyme after that he hath onys goten it / so that he haue it as he sayth in another chapyter after, felyngly and not onely hystorycally.

And who so euer haue not the fayth that he descrybeth hym, he rekeneth for an heretyke / and onely hys fayth for the trew, and the byleuers therof for the trew chyrche.

[Page xxxii]Now hys fayth haue ye herde often inough, that onely A fayth suffyseth or at the leste wyse wyth repentynge / & that shryfte or penaunce toward heuen, or remyssyon of synnes is heresye / and that to wurshyppe the blessed sacrament of the aulter is dyshonour to god / and that there is no purgatory / and that frerys maye well & laufully wedde nonnes / and a greate rable of suche deuelysshe heresyes mo, of such maner suit and sort, that as our sauyour sayed vnto saynt Peter at the confessyon of hys fayth,Matth. 16. Thou arte blessed Symon the sonne of Ionas, For flesshe and bloude hath not reueled thys vnto the, but my father that is in heuyn: so wyll he saye to Tyndale, for confessynge of thys false fayth of his: Thou art accursed Tyndale the sonne of the deuyll / for neyther fleshe nor bloude hath taught the these heresyes / but thyn owne father the deuyll that is in hell.B And thus well hath he quytte hym in thys chapyter.

Here endeth the confutacyon of thys chapyter of Tyndale, whyther the chyrche can erre.

Here foloweth the next chapyter of Tyndale, in which he sayth that a trew member of Crystes chyrche synneth not, and that he ys yet a synner.

Tyndale.

How a trewe member of Crys [...]es chyrche synneth not, and how he ys yet a synner.

More.

NOwe come we to the specyall poynte C wherin Tindale gyueth vs a glorious demonstracyon of hys excellent hygh wytte and lernynge, farre surmoun­tyng the capacyte of pore popyshe men to perceyue, how it myghte be possyble that any man synneth not and yet for all that synneth all waye styll. But to the entent that Tyn­dale shall haue no cause to saye yt I deface hys gay goodly tale, by manglynge of hys mater and rehersynge hym by patchys and pecys: ye shall fyrst concernynge thys poynt here all hys hole chapyter to gether, wythout any worde of hys eyther omytted or chaunged / and after shall we consyder & examyne y partes. These are therfore hys wordes.

A Tyndale.
[Page xxxiii]

Ferthermore, he that hath thys fayth can not synne / and therfore he can not be deceyued with dampnable errours. For by thys fayth we be (as I say [...]e) borne of god. Now he that is borne of god can not synne, for his seed dw [...]e [...]h in hym / and he can not therfore synne by cause he is borne of god. I. Iohn̄. [...]. whyche seed is the holy goste that kepeth a mans herte from consentynge vnto synne. And therfore it is a fals conclusyō that mayster More hol [...]eth, how that a man maye haue a ryght fayth ioyned with all kynd [...]s of abomyna [...]yon and synne. And yet [...]uery member of Crystes congregacyon is a syn­ner and synneth dayly, some more and some lesse. For it is wryten. 1. Iohn̄. 1. yf we saye we haue no synne we deceyue our selues, and the trewth is not in vs. And agayne yf we saye we haue not synned, we make hym a lyar and [...]s worde is not in vs. And Paule Roma. 7. sayth that good which I w [...]e that do I not / but that euyll whych I wolde not that do I. So it is not I t [...]t B do it (sayth he) but synne that dwelleth in me. Thus are we synners and no synners. No synners yf thou loke vnto the professyon of our hartes tow [...]e the lawe of god, on our repentaunce and sorowe that we haue, bothe bycause we haue synned and also bycause we be yet full of sinne styll, and vnto the p [...]omises of mercy in our sauyour Cryst and vnto fayth. Synners are we yf t [...]u loke vnto the frayltye of our flesshe, whyche is as the weaknesse of one t [...]t is newly recouered out of a greate dysease / by the reason wherof our de [...]es are imperfecte, and by the reason wherof also, when occasyons be great we fall into hor [...]yble dedes / and the frute of the synne whych remayneth in our mē ­bres breake [...]h out. Notwythstandynge yet the spyryte leaueth vs not, but rebuketh vs and bryngeth vs home agayne vnto our possession / so that we neuer caste of the yoke of god from our neckes, neyther ye [...]e vp our [...] vnto synne for to serue it, but fyghte afreshe and begynne a new batay [...]e.

More.

C Lo now ye haue herde hys hole holy sermon to gether, by whyche he teacheth vs that a trew member of Crystes chyrche doth both euer synne and neuer synne. But as for the tone parte, that the trew membres of Cryste do synne / we shall not mych trouble hym wyth the profe (All be it in that he sayth that euery trewe member synneth and euer synneth, as he sayth in mo places thē one: yf he take synne for actuall synne as he muste here take yt, or ellys he spe­keth lytell to the purpose / men myghte peraduenture lay a blocke or twayne in hys waye, that wolde breke hys shyn­nes ere he lepte ouer it) But lettynge that parte passe / lette vs se how he proueth the tother, that a trew member of Cristes chyrch synneth not. Lo thus he proueth it.

Tyndale.A
[Page xxxiiii]

Forthermore he that hath this fayth can not synne, and therfore can not be deceyued wyth damnable errours.

More.

Here he telleth vs that no member of the electe chyrche of hys fayth can be deceyued wyth any damnable errour / and proueth it by that none of thē can synne. And in dede it foloweth, he can not synne, ergo he can not be damnably deceyued, syth euery damnable errour is synne. But now let vs se how he proueth hys antecedent, that no man ha­uynge that fayth can synne. He proueth it thus.

Tyndale.

For by thys fayth we be borne of god. Now he that is borne of god can not synne, for his seed dwelleth in hym / and he can not therfore synne, bycause he is borne of god, the .3. chapiter of the fyrste epystle of Iohn̄. whyche seed is B the holy goste that kepys a mannes harte from consentynge to synne. And therfore it is a false conclusyon that M. More holdeth, that a man maye haue a ryght fayth ioyned wyth all kyndes of abomynacyon and synne.

More.

Consyder now good reader, that Tyndale telleth vs here thre thynges, to proue therby that who so gete onys the fayth that saynt Peter confessed can neuer synne after.

The fyrste is, that by that fayth we be borne of god. The seconde is, that who so is borne of god, hath the seed of god in hym.

The thyrde is, that who so haue the seed of god in hym, can not synne.

Uppon these thre he concludeth, that who so gete onys that fayth can neuer synne after.C

Let vs now consyder the fyrste, where he sayth that by fayth we be borne of god. And therin dare we be bolde to tell hym, that though it be trew that by fayth we be borne of god as he now sayth: yet is it false that by onely fayth we be borne of god / as he falsely meaneth, and in many places as falsely for trouth affermeth, where he wolde make vs wene that bycause we be borne of god and become hys chyldren by fayth, we were therfore borne of god by onely fayth. As wysely as yf he wolde saye, that bycause he was bygotten by hys father / he was therfore bygotten of hys father onely wythout any mother.

And thys hys foly hym selfe so well perceyueth, that in many places he laboreth to couer it wyth sophystycacyon, [Page xxxv] A in vsynge thys worde fayth for fayth and hope to gyther, ye and somtyme for cheryte therwyth also / and then wolde make vs wene wyth suche wyse iuglynge, that fayth alone were fayth, hope, and cherite all thre to geder, bycause that ellys the fayth were but dede. And therin vseth hym selfe as wysely, as yf he wolde saye that the body alone eteth, drynketh, walketh, byleueth, loueth, and all to gether. And when hys foly were reproued / wolde then saye that he cal­led the body alone the body wyth the soule therin, bycause the body without ye soule were but a dede body that coulde no thynge do.

And thus ye se that ye shall not nede to be deceyued by hys fyrste poynt, that we be borne of god by fayth.

Hys seconde poynt is, that euery man beynge borne of B god hath the seed of god dwellyng in hym. I wyll not here contende wyth hym, whyther the seed of god that dwelleth in the chyldern of god, be the holy goste, or the fayth, or the grace of god / nor in what wyse god and hys holy spyryte dwellen in good folke. But lettynge suche dysputacyons passe / thys wyll I saye, that yf the seed of fayth beynge onely fayth abyde in hym, it is not a thynge that shall so surely kepe hym frō synne, but that he maye synne dedely, and the seed of suche fayth stande styll wyth his synne / and the man for all the seed of suche fayth dwellynge in hym, may be by synne the chylde of the deuyll, and so maye dye and go to the deuyll [...]

But yet ys the seed of fayth alone, that is to saye the bylyefe alone, a very greate occasyon of retournynge to god at hys callynge agayne by the offer of hys grace, and ther­by C to gete agayne bothe holsome hope and cheryte. But not so great an occasion therof, but that the man may kepe styll hys fayth and hys bylyefe alone, and wythout hope or cheryte eyther, by malyce or neglygence fyrste fall to synne, and after contynue styll in synne, and refuse ye grace of god yf he wyll / as well as the deuyll dyd in the begyn­nynge, and so doth euer styll, and wyll do styll in hell as longe as god dwelleth in heuen.

Now yf the seed of god in the crysten man, be ment hys grace by whyche men come to fayth, hope, and cheryte and do good workes wythall, not wythout the consent and ap­plyeng of theyr owne fre wylles therto / such folke as haue vse of reason workynge wyth god for theyr pore parte to­warde [Page xxxvi] theyr owne saluacyon, wyth the instrument yt god A of hys onely goodnesse hath made and gyuen them ther­unto / yf he meane that thys seed of goddes grace dwelleth styll in man, to kepe hym from fallynge to synne: I saye that it is very trew, as longe as man wyll cleue therunto & let his owne wyll worke therwith. But whē so euer he wyll withdraw his owne wyll therfro, to folowe the world, the flesshe, or the deuyll: then lyke as his wyll departeth from grace, so doth ordinarily ye seed of grace depart out of him.

Now yf he meane by the seed of god, that the spyryte of god dwelleth in the Crysten man by any other specyall maner of dwellynge, aboue such dwellyng as he dwelleth in other men by hys power and presence of hys godhed, then onely by his fauour & grace / which other speciall maner yf Tyndale meane any such, I can not cōceyue, syth I make B my selfe sure that he meaneth no suche dwellynge in vnyte of person, as the seconde person of ye godhed dwelleth with the manhode of Cryste: yet yf he deuyse and meane any other maner of dwellynge, by whyche the spyryte of god dwelleth wyth the faythfull man, I say that the spyryte dwelleth in hym and helpeth hym to contynue suche as longe as the man wyll by the applyenge of hys owne wyll contynue wyth the spyryte. But I saye that the man may by the frowardnesse of hys fre wyll, at the mocyon of the flesshe, or instygacyon of the deuyll, or entycement of ye worlde, hys fayth remaynynge / fall from cheryte, and put the spyryt from hym.Mat [...]he [...]. 8. As dyd the peple of Gerasens, which seynge Crystes myracle wrought vppon the madde man, out of whom he dyd caste the deuyll, bycause he draue the C deuyll into theyr hoggys and therby draue theyr hoggys into the se / though well they perceyue what a myghty lord he was and of what goodnes to, in that they saw hym de­lyuer the man from the legyon of deuyls, and therfore lo­ued hym somwhat of lykelyhed, and wolde haue ben glad to haue had hym dwell styll wyth them: yet ferynge that by the castynge out of mo deuyls they myghte afterwarde happely lese mo of theyr hogges, they prayed hym cour­teysely to gete hym quykly thense.

yet god, when man hath put hym out of hys dwellyng / doth of hys great goodnesse not alwayes vtterly leue hym for hys vnkyndnesse / but though yf the man dye ere god come in agayne, god shall of iustyce for hys vnkyndnesse [Page xxxvii] A houeth styll about ye dore of his harte, alway knockyng vppon hym to be by the fre wyll of man let in with his grace into the howse of mānes harte agayn / accordyng to ye wor­des of our sauyour in the Apocalipse, where he sayth, I stande at the dore knockyng.Ap [...]calip. [...]. How be it a man may be so froward & obstynate in synne, & when he hath expelled god out of his hart, may dreue hym with synne vpon sinne and dispyghtfull cyrcūstaūces so farre of fro the dore, as some of these heretykes do (which in dispyght of vertuouse vo­wes of chastyte, rūne out & wedde nōnes & lyue in lechery / and in dispyght of y lenton faste, eate flesh vpon good fry­day / and in dyspyght of the blessed sacramētes of ye awter, cast the precyous body of Cryst out of the pyx) y god shall iustely for ye hougenes of theyr abominaciō withdraw hym B selfe so farre, yt he shall peraduenture neuer approche nere vnto thē agayn, nor neuer after offer them hys grace. And then muste they nedes neuer cease fallynge tyll they come downe to the deuyll. Thus fynally concernyng hys se­conde poynt / fayth alone may dwell in a man, and dedely synne togyther. But lyuely fayth, yt is to wyt fayth not a­lone, but coupled with hope & cheryte & wyll of good wor­kes, can not dwell with dedely synne / neyther wyth man­slaughter, aduowtry, nor any suche lyke / but as the tone cō meth in, the tother goth out, whyther the synne be cōmyt­ted of malyce, weykenesse, or frayltye / wherof Tyndale ve­ry styffely techeth vs vntruly yt cōtrary. And yet I say not that all synnes be of one wayght, concernyng the dyffycul­tye of returnyg to repētaūce, or ye degrees of payne in hell, after the finall impenytence or punyshement in purgatory C for lacke of penaunce here / but for that yf they dye before they retourne by grace and good wyll vnto penaūce, they be all perpetually dampned in hell the tone as well as the tother, though the tone not so mych as the tother, contrary to Tyndals aforesayd false cōclusyon / whose profe in that poynt specyally dependeth vppon hys thyrde artycle wherof the wordes be trew & hys vnderstandyng false. For hys thyrde poynt ye wote well is thys, that who so euer haue the seed of god dwellynge in hym can not synne.

Thys poynt ye remember he proueth, by the wordes of saynte Iohn̄ in the thyrde chapyter of hys fyrste pystle. whyche pystle is vndowtedly one of the moste harde and darke places of all the new testament / and wherof sundry [Page xxxviii] great heresyes haue rysen, & sondry mo there may, thorow A suche malycyouse myndes as rede the scrypture, to none other entent but to wreste euery word vnto y worse parte / and of the playnesse and symplicite that the apostles vsed in the maner of theyr wordes, take occasyō to tourne theyr erneste godly sentence, into friuolouse cauyllacyons and sophysines / as not onely dyuerse heretykes haue done of olde, but also Tyndale hath now of newe, bothe renewed theyr olde & added some of his own, more pestylent & more folysh also then all the olde heretykes durst for very shame haue spokē of. And where as all ye olde holy doctours vsed alway to make open & expoune the hard & darke places of scrypture, by suche other as were playne clere & euydent: these heretykes alwaye for the profe of theyr heresyes, seke out the hardest places yt can be founden in scrypture. And B all the playne open wordes in whych can be no dowte nor questiō, they come and expoune by those places y be darke obscure, & hard to vnderstand / mych lyke a blynd guyde, y wolde when men were walkyng in a darke nyght, put out the candell and shew them the way by the lanterne.

This way vseth Tyndale vnyuersally, as well in euery other thyng yt he taketh in hand to proue, as in this poynt specyally / y he which hath onys the fayth can neuer synne, bycause he hath ye seed of god dwellyng in hym. For where as it is euydent & playne by clere and open textes of scryp­ture, full & plentuouse in euery part therof, that there is no man here (excepte some specyall reuelacyon therof) so sure of his owne fynall saluacyon, nor of his own present estate neyther, but that he hath good cause to fere & temper hys C hope of goddys mercy with the drede of his iustyce, lest his ouer bolde hope may happe to stretche in to presumpcion & occasyon of sleyght regardyng synne: Tyndale wolde ex­poune thē all agaynst them all, by one darke text or twayn taken in this pistle of saynt Iohn̄ / by which he wold make vs byleue y saynt Iohn̄ techeth dyuers of the most pesty­lent heresyes & most repugnaūt vnto god, and yt in hys iu­styce and his mercy bothe, wyth the most occasyon gyuen vnto the world vnto the two most heyghnouse synnes and moste contraryouse in them selfe, that is to wytte presumpcyon & despayre, that euer any heretyke deuysed.

For he gathereth and affermeth vpon saynt Iohn̄s py­stle, in hys false exposycyon, and also in hys foresayd be­gynnynge [Page xxxix] A of thys chapyter, that saynt Iohn̄ techeth them all these false heresyes folowynge.

Fyrste that who so euer haue onys the trewe fayth, can neuer after synne of malice or purpose / but that all the synnys that he can after fall vnto, shalbe but of wek [...]nes and frayltye, be they murder, aduowtry, periury, sacrylege, in­ceste or treason, or any other abomynable dede be it neuer so detestable synne.

Secōdely yt of all such synnes he that hath onys at any tyme goten ye fayth, shall haue euer after the grace to repēt.

And thyrdely yt at the bare repentynge wythout shryfte or penaunce, he shall haue forthwyth forgeuenesse of all synne and payne / so that any satysfaccyon shall not onely no thyng nede, but is also as he sayth a dampnable thyng to do it, for hope or desyre towarde any remyssyon eyther B of synne or payne, and a dampnable e [...]rour to byleue that god hath ordayned any punysshement or payne eyther in purgatory after thys worlde, or by any afflyccyon in thys world, for any synne that any man onys hauyng the fayth cōmytteth & repēteth hym of, were it neuer so abominable.

For in hys exposycyon of ye fyrste pystle of saynt Iohn̄, he is come so mych ferther then euer he came before (as farre as I remember) yt there lyke as I haue shewed you byfore in the preface, he denyeth not onely purgatory but also all punysshement: here he techeth also that who so gete onys the trew fayth, which he calleth the felyng fayth, hath a sure vndowted knowlege that he is in the state of grace, and an electe that can neuer be dampned.

Now of these abomynable heresyes what bold occasyō C of synne men may catche, and how they repūgne agaynste the iustyce of god. I referre it vnto the wysedome of euery good Crysten reder. Then techeth he on the tother syde, yt who so euer after hys baptysme had, & the story fayth, that is sayth he the fayth with whych we byleue the artycles of the fayth as men byleue a story or a cronicle, do any dedely synne of purpose / yt is to wytte as he sayth, not of wekenes or freyltye but of malyce or wyllyngly wyth a consentyng to the synne: y man shall neuer after be forgeuen in thys worlde nor in none other. For euery such synne sayth he is the synne agaynst y holy goste / which shall sayth he neuer be forgyuen, notwithstandynge any repentaunce and pe­naunce taken and done therfore.

[Page xl]And to the profe of thys pestylent heresye, he draweth A the couert and obscure wordes of our sauyour Cryste in the gospell of saynt Mathew the .12. chapyter / and also the darke and hard wordes of saynt Poule.Hebr [...]. 6. whych places of them selfe all olde holy doctours confesse for dyffuse and almost vnexplyclable / sauynge that they all expoune them contrary to Tyndals heresye, by y artycles of the knowne fayth of Crystes catholyke chyrche, and by many playne open textes of holy scrypture. Of whyche two thynges Tyndale the tone dyssymuleth, and the tother despyseth / and byleueth the olde heretyke Nouaciane the fyrsse au­thour of that abomynable heresye, better then saynte Cy­pryane, saynte Hyerom, saynte Austayne, saynte Ambrose, saynt Gregory, and all the olde holy sayntes that haue wryten agaynst it / and better then the hole catholyke chyr­che B of Cryste of thys .xv. hundred yere, y euer hath taught the contrarye, and euer syth the fyrst inuencyon of that he­resye haue contynually detested and condēpned it, as one of the most execrable heresyes that euer ye deuyll deuysed.

For as Tyndals other heresye fyghteth agaynste god­des iustyce / so doth thys dyrectly fyghte agaynste hys mercy / and putteth almoste all crystē people in vtter despayre of heuen, yf men were so madde to byleue one heretyke or twayne, better then all the olde holy sayntes, and all the hole chyrche of Cryste.

Thys heresye as I began to tell you, Tyndale among hys other afore remembred, laboreth to stablysh / not onely by the darke and harde places of scrypture afore remem­bred, but also by certayne wordes in thys fyrste pystle of C saynt Iohn̄ / where is no more colour to speke therof then of the man in the mone, as euery man maye sone perceyue that redeth hym.

But now for our present purpose, to towch his heresies of thys chapyter of hys, of synnyng without synne / I shall touche you the place in that pystle of saynt Iohn̄, wherby Tyndale wolde proue you that who so gete onys the fayth whyche he calleth the trew fayth and the felyng fayth, can neuer synne dedely after. By whyche ye shall playnely se how playnely he mysseconstrewth the scrypture, to the myschyef of mēnes soules. The wordes of saint Iohn̄ be these Euery man that is borne of god doth not synne, for the seed of hym abydeth in hym / and he can not synne, bycause he is borne of god.

[Page xli] A In the vnderstandynge of these wordes varye Tyn­dale and we. And whyther he or we mysse vnderstande it, that let vs now examyne. Fyrst we shall I suppose agre to gether bothe that to be borne of god is in the scrypture no thynge ellys, but to be the chyld of god / and to be bo [...]ne of the deuyll, is to be the deuyls chylde.

we shall I thynke also agre to gether in thys that to be borne of god or to be the chyldren of god, is not mente to be hys naturall chyldren as our sauyour Cryste is by rea­son of hys godhed / but by fayth, hope, and cheryte [...] and the sacramentes, and the folowynge of Cryst in good workes, and kepynge of goddes commaundementes, to be mēbres of hys mystycall body of hys electe chyrche.

But herein peraduenture shall Tindale and we begyn B to vary, not onely for that I saye by the sacramentes and good workes, of whyche Tyndale wyll not here / but also for the electe chyrche y is Crystes mystycall body, wherof goddes chyldren be membres here in erth. For all be it that he is so waueryng in his wordes that he woteth not where to holde hym, and therfore speketh so darkely that he wold be loth to be vnderstanden: yet he wyll call as it semeth no man a member of Crystes electe chyrche, but hym that is elected fynally to blysse and saluacyon. And I call h [...]re the elect chyrche in thys world, neyther all that are chosen in to crystendome and the professyō of the catholyke fayth, nor onely those that shall be fynally saued / but all suche as for the present tyme so stande in the state of grace, that yf they dye before they fall therfro they shalbe saued. Of whi­che C folke many fall after from it, & so be dampned in dede / whyche folke before theyr fall be the chyldren of god saye I. And when they be fallen into dedely synne, then ceace they to be the chyldren of god, and be become the chyld [...]en of the deuyll, tyll they be borne of god agayne by grace thorowe penaūce, and become the chyldren of god agayne. And in whyche so euer of these two states a man fynally dyeth in / in that he perpetually dwelleth, and is therby for euer eyther the chylde of god in hys chyrche of the fynall electes in heuen, or ellys the chyld of the deuyll in the chyrche of the fynall reprobatys in hell / accordyng to the word of holy wryte, yf a tre fall south or north,Eccle [...]iastae. 11. in what place so euer it fall there shall it remayne.

But here sayth Tyndale, that who so euer haue onys [Page xlii] the fayth whyche he calleth after the felyng fayth / he hath A the seed of god, the spyryte of god in hym. And bycause he hath the spyryte of god in hym / therfore he sayth by the authoryte of y aforsayd wordes of saynt Iohn̄, that man can neuer synne dedely. So that by that reason, who so euer haue onys the fayth, is one of the fynall electes.

Now se you in what maner Tyndale taketh these wor­des. But agaynste hys takynge, [...]tande all the olde holy doctours of Crystes chyrche, from the dayes of hym selfe and hys apostles hytherto. Of all whom, let Tyndale tell me the name of any one that euer dyd vnderstande these wordes of saynt Iohn̄ in such wyse as Tyndale doth / that who so euer gate onys the ryght fayth of Cryste, and put therwyth as greate a felynge therof wyth hope and cherite therto, as euer holy Tyndale hym selfe felte in hys dayes / B coude neuer after fall into dedely synne, or not so depe into it, that he myghte after be perpetually dampned in hell. Let Tyndale I saye tell me any one of the olde holy sayn­tes, that in thys exposycyon euer toke hys parte / and lette hym take all my teth and my tonge to.

Now yf neuer any good man vnderstode saynte Iohn̄ so byfore / but all holy men clene y cōtrary / by what reason loketh Tyndale now, that we sholde now begynne to by­leue hym alone, in the vnderstandynge of these wordes of saynte Iohn̄, better then all good connynge men thys .xv. hundreth yere before hym.

Now is hys exposycyō bysydes thys, not onely agaynst the catholyke fayth of all crysten people, and the playne determynacyon of Crystes chyrche / but also agaynste many C playne open places of holy scrypture bysyde / whych were in so playne and clere a mater almoste a loste labour to re­herse. And yet leste an vnlerned reder myght happe to any thynge to dowte, I shall reherse you some.

what saye we by the wordes of the spyryte reueled vnto saynt Iohn̄, agaynste the bysshop of the chyrche of Ephe­sus / whom where as god praysed for many great vertues, in suche wyse that it appered that he was at that tyme in grace and goddes ryght specyall fauour, yet sayed he vnto hym, I haue for all this a few thynges agayst the, bycause thou hast lefte of thy fyrst cheryte. And therfore remember from whens thou arte fallen, and amende and do the good workes whyche thou were wont to do. For ellys wyll I [Page xliii] A come shortely to the, and I wyll remoue thy candelstycke oute of hys place, excepte thou repent and do penaunce.

Doth it not here playnely appere, that he whyche hath goten so the fayth, and that the lyuynge fayth to, that he worketh so well therwyth that the lyght of hys faythfull lyuely workes shyne bryght before the face of god / maye yet by declynynge from that feruour of deuout workes, in to some slouthfull slaknesse though myche of hys vertue tary, fall yet so low at laste, that god shall reiecte hym and caste his candelstycke, wherof the lyght shall be worne out quyte out of hys place? If thys myghte not be / god wolde not tell hym, it bothe myght and excepte he mended shold.

Doth not saynte Poule saye,1. [...]r. 1 [...]. he that thynketh that he standeth / let hym beware he fall not.

It apereth there playne by the cyrcumstaunces of the B place, that he speketh there to them whom he rekened for good men and faythfull. For to those that stand he gyueth the counsayle to beware they fall not. whyche by Tyndale yf they onys in fayth fele them selfe stande they nede not, for they can not fall dedely. But saynt Poule there mente dedely falles, as bothe by hys wordes byfore and after appereth.

He sayth also to the Romayns in y .10. chapyter,Rom [...]. [...] They that is the Iewys are broken of for theyr lacke of bylyefe. But thou standest by fayth / be not proude therof but fere.

There sheweth saynt Poule effectually by a longe pro­cesse, that lyke wyse as he whyche lacketh fayth maye by grace come to it / so he that hath it and standeth in it hath cause to fere, bycause he may by his own defaut fall frō it.

C Sayth he not also,1. Timo [...]. 5. The rote of all euylles is couetyce / whyche whyle some folke couetyd, they walked out of the waye from the fayth.

He sayth also,2. Timo [...]. 2 [...] Hymeneus and Philetus are fallen from the treuth / sayeng that the resurreccyon is paste all redy [...] & they haue peruerted the fayth of some persons.

Here sheweth saynt Poule playne, that men maye haue the fayth and lese it / and that can they not I suppose with out dedely synne.

Peraduenture Tyndale wyll say, that he speketh onely of electys / and that I can not proue these textes to be spo­ken of electes. Therto saye I that he calleth euery man an electe, that is onely borne agayn of god by fayth, and that [Page xliiii] byleueth to be saued by the meane of Cryste / and of suche A speke these textes, and therfore they speke of hys electes.

Then wyll he peraduenture say, that he meaneth of a felynge fayth onely. I know not what he meaneth by hys felynge fayth / but I wote well these textes speke of good fayth & lyuely fayth, that worketh wyth loue. If he fynde any other felynge let hym tell vs.

And yet yf there be any other felynge of fayth, then by­leuyng, louyng, and workyng / the selfe same to, semeth by saynt Poule that it may be lefte of agayn and loste, as ap­pereth by the same wordes of his in the syxte chapyter vn­to the Hebrewys / of whyche wordes Tyndale taketh hys chyefe holde of the tother parte of hys heresyes,Hebrae. 6. that is to wytte that who so synne onys dedely after hys baptysme, shall neuer after be forgeuen. Saynte Poules wordes are B these. It is impossyble that they whyche haue onys ben il­lumyned, and haue tasted the heuenly gyfte, and haue ben made part takers of the holy goste, & haue tasted the good worde of god and the powers of the worlde to come, and be after all thys fallen downe / sholde be renewed agayne by penaunce, for as mych as they as mych as in thē lyeth, crucyfye agayne the sonne of god, and haue hym in derysyon.

Lo syrs where as Tyndale speketh of felynge fayth / saynt Poule speketh here of them that haue felte the taste therof. And where as Tyndale speketh mych of the worde of god / saynt Poule here speketh of them that haue felt the taste of the good word of god. And where as Tyndale spe­keth myche of beynge borne agayne of the spyryte / saynte Poule here in lyke wyse speketh of them yt haue receyued C the spyryte. And yet for all that they haue ben illumyned, and haue felte the taste of the celestyall gyfte, and ben part takers of the holy goste, and haue felt the swete taste of the good worde of god, & of the powers of the worlde to come: yet sayth he contrary to Tyndals techynge, that they may for all thys fall downe so farre into dedely synne, that it is impossyble for them to be renewed agayne by penaunce.

what hath Tyndale here to saye to saynt Poule? Su­rely for the defence of thys folysshe heresye, no thyng hath he to saye at all, that any good colour hath.

But when he shalbe fayne to gyue ouer thys / then wyll he comfort hym selfe wyth that that saynte Poule here se­meth to ferther hys other heresye, that euery dedely synne [Page xlv] A after baptysme sholde be irremyssyble.

But out of that comfort shall I dreue hym shortely, For I am sure the places of holy scrypture wryten all by one holy spyryte, varyeth not in sentence. And where as these wordes, as well appereth by the olde holy wryters, be full of hardynesse and dyffycultye: yet that the sentēce can not be such as may serue Tyndals heresye, yt shall we, leuyng all theyr exposycyons whyche are all clene agaynste hym, make hym open and euydent, by the playne & clere wordes of the holy prophete Ezechyell, whose wordes lo be these in the .xviii. chapyter.

If a synner repēt hym of all the synnes yt he hath done,Ezec [...] 1 [...]. & kepe all my cōmaūdementes, & deale iustely & ryghteous­ly: he shall lyue, and shall not dye. Of all ye iniquitees that B he hath wrought I wyll none remēber: in y ryghteousnes whyche he hath done shall he lyue. Is it my wyll sayth the lorde god, that the wicked man shold dye, & not rather that he sholde be conuerted from hys wayes & lyue? But truely yf the ryghtuouse man turne hym selfe awaye from hys ryghtuousnesse, & worke wyckednes in any of all those a­bominatiōs which the wicked man is wont to worke shall he lyue? Of all y ryghtuousnes yt he hath done, shall none be remēbred. But for the offence which he hath cōmytted, & in the synne that he hath done / for those shall he dye.

Lo syrs here is more then I promysed. For here be both his heresyes destroyed at onys. For god here by the mouth of this holy man, promiseth without any maner excepcion, yt when so euer the wycked man wyll turne, he shalbe takē C to grace. And in lyke wyse when so euer ye ryghtuous man synne, his formar ryghtuousnes shall not saue hym from dampnacyon. And this sentence our lorde hath set so sure, that he repeteth it agayne in ye .xxxiii. chapyter in this wyse. [...] The ryghtuousnes of the ryghtuous man shall not saue hym in what daye so euer he synne. Also when so euer the wycked man turne from his wyckednes / it shall not hurte hym. And the ryghtuous man can not lyue thorowe hys ryghtuousnes, in what daye so euer he synne.

Here haue ye good reders hard this sentence by y word of god in thys one holy prophete, dowble cōfermed & ther­by Tyndals dowble heresye dowble also condempned.

And yet lest Tyndale myghte say, why sholde you not as well expoune and glose Ezechyel by saynte Poule, as [Page xlvi] saynt Poule by Ezechyel, namely syth saynt Poule came A after, and therfore of goddes mynde maye tell vs ferther: it apereth I saye that our lorde wyll not that these wordes of Ezechiel be glosed by any other wordes, though they be spoken by god hym selfe / but that his other wordes yf they seme contrary, shall be rather expouned by these. And ther­of he gyueth vs open warnynge in hys wordes folowynge and sayth.

Ezechiel. 33.ye and though I wolde saye to a ryghteouse man that he shall lyue, and he then trustynge in hys ryghteousenes commytte and do wyckednesse / all hys ryghteousnes shall be forgottē / and for the iniquyte whyche he hath wrought, for that he shall dye. But yf I saye to a synner, Thou shalt dye / and he then repenteth hym of hys synne, and doth iu­gement and iustyce, and that the same wycked man restore B the pledge that he hath of an other man, and also make restytucyon of stollen goodes, and walke in the cōmaunde­mentes of lyfe, and do nothynge that is vnryght: he shall lyue, and shall not dye but be saued, and none of all the synnes which he hath commytted, shalbe layed to his charge. Iugement and iustyce hath he done, and therfore shall he lyue and not dye.

Lo good crysten reders, here se we very playne, that we were farre vnwyse yf we wold folowe the foly of Tyndale, eyther in bolde presumptuose hope or folysshe ferefull des­payre / eyther wenynge that after any felynge fayth onys had, any dede that we coulde after do, coulde be no dedely synne / or y for any dede done after our baptysme, we could be penaunce neuer be saued after. we maye be very sure,C that as saynt Poule playnely reproueth the tone, and ys harde to perceyue what he meaneth in the tother: so that he meneth not as Tyndale telleth vs, we may well know / not onely by all the olde holy doctours and sayntes that expoune saynt Poule, in that he sayth it is impossyble to be renewed by penaunce, that it is impossyble to be by pe­naunce renewed vnto the state of baptysme. And by that exposycyon they destroye yet a thyrde heresye of Tyndale, concernynge hys full remyssyon of synne and payne and all forthwyth as soone as he repenteth / but also be we well lerned here by the prophete Ezechyell, that all though yt maye peraduenture be, that a man maye go forth in synne so farre, that he shall neuer haue grace of [Page xlvii] A repentaūce after offered vnto hym, & for that cause ought euery man stande in greate fere to synne how greate fayth so euer he fele / yet yf we begynne onys to repente, we may be sure that god offereth grace & wyll perfyt our penauns wyth encreace of his grace, and wyll perdone the deth dew for our dedely synne, but yf we fayle on our parte to go forwarde wyth hys grace, and that we folyshly fall therfro.

Now agaynste all these euydent places of scrypture playnely contrary to Tyndals exposycyon / what thynge hath Tyndale to defende his exposycyō wythall? If he na­me any men / he shall name you none but a fewe knowen condempned heretykes, agaynst all holy doctours & sayn­tes and the catholyke fayth of all crysten people. If he pretende any places of scrypture / he shall alledge a few darke B hard and obscure, or no thyng pertaynynge to the mater, agaynste a great many manyfeste, playne and euydent, & clerely prouynge hys exposycyon false.

Fynally ye shall fynde that the hole purpose of saynte Iohn̄ in that pystle, no thynge maketh in thys worlde for Tyndals entent, but rather clerely the contrary.

For saynt Iohn̄ entended there, not to shew them, that who so is onys good can neuer after be badde, as Tindale sayth he ment / but vtterly to gyue all the world warnyng, that be men at one tyme neuer so good, yet when so euer after they do noughte they be nought, and by theyr euyll doyng lese theyr goodnes. And lyke wyse as byfore whyle they byleue well and worke well, they be all that whyle borne of god, & be goddes chyldren, and haue his seed in C them: so when so euer they fall from fayth to heresyes, or from good workes to dedely synne, then lese they the seed of god and be borne of the deuyll & become hys chyldren.

And that saynte Iohn̄ in thys poynt ment none other then thus / the hole processe of hys pystle one parte compa­red wyth an other, doth more then playnely declare. For he sheweth that ye deuyll ys the father of euyll folke, and they hys chyldren by folowynge hym in theyr synfull workes / as our sauyour sayd to ye iewes ye be of your father the de­uyll, and hys desyres wyll ye do.Ioh [...] ̄. [...]. And the son of god sayth Saynt Iohn̄ came in to this worlde and here appered, to dyssolue and breke the workes of ye deuyll. And euery man that is borne of god, that is to saye that ys goddes chylde doth not synne, bycause ye seed of god abydeth in hym / and [Page xlviii] he can not synne bycause he is borne of god and is goddes A chylde, as though he wolde say, for yf he fall to synne, then ceaceth he to be borne of god and to be goddes chylde, and begynneth to be borne of the deuyll and to be hys chylde.

And therfore it foloweth forthwyth in the texte, By this be the chyldern of god and the chyldern of the deuyll open. That is to saye, by thys maye ye se who be the chyldern of god and who the chylderne of the deuyl. For he that is not ryghtuouse is not the chylde of god, nor he that loueth not hys brother. And after he sayth, euery man that hateth his brother is a manqueller / and ye knowe that no manquel­ler hath euerlastynge lyfe abydynge in hym.

Lo good reder, where as he sayd byfore that the chylde of god can not synne, bycause he hath the seed of god aby­dynge in hym: here he sayth for all that, who so euer hate B hys brother is an homicyde, and therfore hath not euerla­stynge lyfe abydynge in hym. whyche is the thynge that he before called the seed of god, whyther he ment therby lyuely fayth, grace, or the spyryte of god. Of whyche thre the fyrste two be the begynnynge and the entre in to euerla­stynge lyfe, whyche shall be perfyted by glory / and the thyrde is hym selfe euerlastynge lyfe of hys owne omni­potent nature.

And thus haue he the seed of lyfe neuer so stronge and sure at one tyme whyle he is the chylde of god: yet when so euer he falleth after to the hatered of hys brother, he le­seth that lyfe by the commyttynge of dedely synne, and be­cometh the chylde of the deuyll.

To thys wyll Tyndale peraduenture say, that I passe C ouer and dyssymule the wayght of saynt Iohn̄s wordes yt he allegeth, and that I wynke and wyll not perceyue how playnely they proue hys purpose. For though it be trewe that when so euer a man hateth hys brother, he is an homicyde and synneth dedely, and hath not euerlastyng lyfe nor the seed of god abydynge in hym: yet foloweth it not wyll Tyndale saye, that he that hath onys the felynge fayth, & therby is borne of god, and therby hath the seed of god in hym, may synne dedely and lese the seed of god. For he can not lese it but by synne. And the seed of god onys beynge in hym / he can not bycause of that seed be suffered to hate hys brother of purpose, and so to do dedely synne and lese the seed of lyfe / but euer is he by the strength and vertue of [Page xlix] A that seed of euerlastynge lyfe, preserued from all fallynge in to dedely synne. And that I proue (wyll Tyndale saye) by the playne and open wordes of saynt Iohn̄ before alledged / where he sayth that he that is borne of god can not synne, bycause he hath the seed of god abydynge in hym. He sayth not as longe as he hath it / but he sayth he can not synne bycause he hath it. Sygnyfyeng playnely yt he can neuer synne, bycause he hath the thynge in hym that wyll neuer suffer any dedely synne to entre. And the reason that is made agaynst me vppon other wordes of the same py­stle, auoydeth (wyll Tyndale saye) myne exposycyon nothynge at all. For lyke wyse as it is made agaynste a man onys borne of god, to proue that he maye be after borne of the deuyll: it may as well be made of any angell in heuen. B For yf any angell in heuen wolde fall from the loue of god into malyce / he sholde be turned from an angell in to a de­uyll. But lyke wyse as that case can neuer fall, bycause the seed of god is in that angell / whyche so kepeth hym & euer shall that he can not haue that euyll wyll so to do: so doth the seed of god onys entred wyth the felynge fayth in to a soule, so preserue it & kepe it by the myghty power of that seed, that that soule can not fall in to that malycyouse wyll that maye make any dede of hys to be dedely synne. And y thys is so, I saye yet agayne y the wordes of saynt Iohn̄ whyche I haue before alledged, do very playnely proue / in that he sayth that who so is borne of god can not synne, bycause he is borne of god, and bycause he hath the s [...]ed of god abydyng in hym. And he sayth after in a nother place C of the same pystle, that he whyche is borne of god / hys ge­neracyō (that is to wytte hys beynge borne of god by the seed of god,1. I [...]. 5 wherby he ys begotē & borne of god) doth pre­serue & kepe hym.

In thys wyse wyll Tyndale peraduēture answere me. And surely I can my selfe deuyse no more effectuall wor­des that he myghte speke for hys parte / for in good fayth yf I coulde I wolde. For neuer wyll I purposely leue his parte any more fayntely defended thē myne own, as farre as my selfe can se any thynge that hym selfe myghte saye.

But now to thys answere. we shall tell hym agayn that bytwene man & angell is there almoste as greate dyfferēce in thys mater, as there is bytwene them in theyr substaūce and nature. For the blessed angellys that stode styll wyth [Page l] god in the deuyls fall, were forthwyth so surely confermed A in grace, that they can neuer fall in to synne after, nor do any thynge wherof god wyll commaunde them the contrary. And of thys in them be we sure in fayth, by the worde of god taught vnto hys chyrche / and they sure in knowledge by hys promyse made vnto them wyth hys worde, whyche he by a meane to vs not imagynable continually speketh vnto them, in the contemplacyon and byholdynge of hys almyghty godhed. But as for man / we fynde no such pro­myse made vnto hym, that when he is ones good, he can neuer after waxe nought. But we fynde in scrypture the cō trary, as I haue by playn scrypture proued all redy before

we se also that the catholyke fayth of all crysten people is to the contrary. For all crysten people excepte a few heretykes, both now byleue and all thys .xv. hundred yere be­fore B euer haue byleued, that good men & chyldren of god maye fall in to dedely synne, and become chyldern of the deuyll / and yet aryse by grace thorowe penaunce, and be made the chyldern of god agayne.Ezechiel. 18.33. Many textes also of holy scrypture playnely proue,Roma. 11. that good folke maye falle & perysshe.1. Cor. 1 [...].16. Psalmo. 32.33. And the scrypture is full of good counsayle / ad­uysynge all good men to stande faste alway and euer lyue in fere of fallynge / but yf any specyall reuelacyon be geuen to some certayne man bysyde the comen ordinary course.

we fynde also playne ensamples, both in scrypture and at our owne eyes, of many vertuouse chyldren of god, that haue fallen from that estate, & becomen by synne the chyl­dren of the deuyll.

For lettynge passe ouer Iudas, that from the chylde of C god and from an holy apostle torned in to the traytour of god & chylde of the deuyll of hell: we haue seen ouer many in our owne dayes, in whom we haue had experyence of ye lyke. As of frere Luther, frere Huskyn, Otho the monke, Pomerane the preste, & frere Lambert. For as for Swyn­glius, I neuer herde of any good vertue in hym. But all these other were the good chyldren of god onys, at suche tyme as grace and deuocyō brought them in to relygyon. And yet can now no good man dowte, but by the breche of theyr holy vowys and promyse made to god, and rūnynge out in apostasye, and lyuynge in lechery vnder pretence of matrymony / & for theyr more corage & boldenesse in suche bychery, to bere it to better out shamelesse wyth vngracy­ouse [Page li] A company, makynge a shamefull secte therof and an abomynable heresye, they be now fallen from Cryste, and haue expelled the seed of god out of theyr hartes by synne very deuylysh dedely. And yet dare I not despayre of any of all these, nor of Tyndale hym selfe neyther. For all hys owne rule, wherby he techeth that they whyche wyllyngly synne, and of purpose malycyousely impugne the knowen trouth, as they and he do, shall neuer come to grace of amē dement nor ought not to be prayed for: yet dare I neyther I saye despayre of any of them nor of hym selfe neyther / but hope yet and praye both, that god maye amende them all, yf none of them de dede in theyr synne and gone to the deuyll all redy.1. Iohā. 5 For then is there in them peccatum ad mort [...]m that saynt Iohn̄ speketh of / and vayne were it then & synne also, any more to praye for them then for the deuyll. [...]u [...]a [...] B inferno null [...] est redemptio / and the wreches lye there now blas­phemynge god, and are hys vnchaungeable enemyes as is the deuyll.

But these reasons and these examples I saye, wyth the consent of all the olde holy exposytours of saynte Iohn̄s pystle before / make vs to perceyue surely, that saynt Iohn̄ dyd neuer mene by these wordes, after such maner as Tyndale expouneth hym now / that bycause the seed of god ys onys in hym, therfore there can neuer any dedely synne enter after. For saynt Iohn̄ hym selfe in the same pyste counsayleth euery good man to stande styll in hys goodnes,1. [...]. [...]. & beware that he fall not in to idolatry. whyche he myghte haue boden all goddes chyldrē care neuer for, yf they were C as Tyndale sayth sure by theyr felyng fayth, y they could neuer fall therto, bycause the seed of god was onys wyth in theym.

But as I sayd before, Tyndale in these wordes of saynt Iohn̄ taketh occasyō of the symplycyte vsed in the maner of speche in holy scrypture, to make cauyllacyons and seke out sophysmes vppon euery worde. And where as saynte Iohn̄ sayth, that the chylde of god can not synne / menyng not precysely that he can not synne dedely by any maner meane, but that it is a greate occasyon to kepe hym from synne, & that he y doth dedely synne, is not goddes chylde but the deuyls: Tyndale affermeth hym playnly to mene, that he whyche ys onys goddes chylde can neuer synne dedely after. As though euery man that wolde say, an ho­norable [Page lii] mannes chylde and vertuousely brought vp, can A not fall to shamefull vycyouse lyuynge, for hys good edu­cacyon shall brydle hym, and drede of shamynge hym selfe and hys frendes muste nedes refrayne hym / myghte not meane by these wordes that the yonge man sholde haue a greate occasyon to contynue good, but muste nedes meane that it were impossyble for hym to be other then good / and that he neuer coulde after forgete hys bryngynge vp, and shake of shame and fall to nought.

Or yf one wolde saye, a man that taketh hys wyfe for very loue, can neuer fall to aduowtry, y loue that he hath to her must nedes kepe hym to her / nor she can not for very shame begyle hym, for the loue that he bereth to her. Do not folke speke in such fasshyō? And yet though they mene that these thynges be great occasyons to contayne the partyes B in faythfull matrymony, they mene not that it can ne­uer happen otherwyse.

In suche maner of whyse meaned saynt Iohn̄ in those wordes, when he sayd he that is borne of god synneth not, for he hath the seed of good in hym / and therfore he can not synne, bycause he is borne of god / he ment I saye, not that it is impossyble for hym to synne dedely, but y it is a great helpe and occasyon to kepe hym from dedely synne.

yet wyll not Tyndale let to stycke styll in hys errour, & saye that saynt Iohn̄ playnely ment, that it is impossyble for hym to synne that hath the seed of god in hym. For he sayth that he whyche onys hath the seed in hym, can not synne after dedely by no maner menys, bycause he hath the seed of god in hym onys.C

To thys I saye that in y sample that I before dyd put, neyther the man nor the wyfe that come to gether for great loue can fall to aduowtry, bycause the loue whyche is in eche of them towarde the other, can not suffer it. And truth it is as longe as it lasteth & endureth in them. But eyther of them both yet, may so farre fall in loue with some other, that the hote loue whych they had bytwene them selfe, may cole and clene be quenched / as is the fyre wyth castynge on water inough.

Saynt Iohn̄ therfore wrytynge those wordes, and vn­derstandynge as in dede he doth, not after a sophystycall fasshyon, yt it were vtterly impossyble for hym at any tyme after to synne dedely, that hath onys ye seed of god in hym / [Page liii] A but well and resonably menyng after the comon maner of spekyng, y it shalbe a great occasyō for hym to abyde good styll, & that as long as the man kepeth y seed of god (why­ther saynt Iohn̄ toke it for lyuely fayth, grace, or the spyrit of god) & cleueth there vnto, so longe he can not synne de­dely: saynt Iohn̄ I say so sayeng & so menynge, spake as bycame the ryght euāgelyst of Cryst. But Tindale telling saynt Iohn̄s tale, & menyng thereby as he wolde make vs wene that saynt Iohn̄ ment [...] that is to wit y who so euer is onys borne of god, neyther shall synne after dedely nor ne­uer can, bycause y seed of god is in him able to preserue the man & to kepe out synne / speketh as wysely as yf he wolde fyrst make me this argumēt: He y turneth y spyt sitteth by the fyre / but he that sitteth by the fyre can not be a colde, bycause B he hath a good fire by hym: ergo he that turneth the spyt can not be a colde. And when he had made vs onys this argument, wolde then wene he had playnly proued, y who so euer had onys turned the spytte, coulde neuer be a colde after in all his lyfe. For surely after Tyndals vnder­stādyng of saynt Iohn̄s wordes, the reason is mych lyke. For lykewise as while a man sitteth by the fyre he can not be a cold, bycause y fire is by hym that kepeth hym warm: so while the seed of god is in the man he can not synne, bycause the seed of god beynge i [...] hym doth kepe & preserue hym from synne. But lyke wyse as the broche turner that sitteth warme by the fire, may let the spitte stande, & suffre the mete to burne, and walke himselfe out in the snow tyll his teeth chater ī his hed for colde, and neuer cathe hete a­gayne C but fall starke dede on the grownd: so he yt is onys goddes chyld, & hath the seed of god in hym, & therfore cā not synne dedely as longe as he kepeth it and cleueth faste vnto it, may by the foly & frowardnes of his owne fre will expell the seed of god, & reiecte his grace, & neclecte his ho­ly spyryte, and fall to dedely synne, & continue therin, & dye therin, & go to the deuyll therin to.

And so as it is trewe to saye, that he which hath a good fyre by hym can not be a colde, menyng therby as long as he kepeth hym by it: so is it trew to say, that who so haue ye seed of god in hym can not synne dedely, menyng thereby as longe as he kepeth it. And thus ment saynt Iohn̄.

And as he that wolde say who so sitteth by the fyre can neuer be a cold, menyng therby that he could neuer go frō the fyre & so cathe, cold after, were a very starke fole: so he [Page liiii] that wold say that who so haue the seed of god in hym can A not synne / menyng therby that he could neuer after lese y seed, by the foly or frowardnesse of his owne wyll, & therby synne dedely and be dāpned to, were mych more then mad. And syrs thus meneth Tyndale / and wold make vs all so wyse, as to wene that saynt Iohn̄ ment so to / wherof we se playne the contrary, not onely by many other playne pla­ces of scrypture, but also by many other places of saynte Iohn̄ in the selfe same pystle, wyth all the olde holy sayn­tes that euer expouned that pystle of saynt Iohn̄.

And syth Tindale so styffely stycketh in this poynt, that the seed of god onys had in a mānes harte, doth kepe hym for euer after frō euery dedely synne: let hym tell vs wher­fore it kepeth hym not for euer from euery dedely synfull dede. For Tyndale sayth hym selfe, that though the seed B shall kepe hym from all dedely synne / yet it shall not kepe hym frō aduowtry, nor manslaughter, nor such other hor­ryble dedes, as poore vnlerned people in some contreys be wont to call dedely synnes.

And therfore good crysten reders, I shall in this poynt ende wyth the good holsome counsayle of saynt Iohn̄, by whych in the selfe same pystle agaynst Tyndale, expressely he byddeth vs all beware of all suche heretykes, as wolde make vs wene y some were goddes wanton cokneys in such a speciall wyse, yt what so euer they do no thyng could displease hym / & some other so lytell set by and so farre out of hys fauour, yt no repentaūce, no penaūce, no fayth, none hope, no loue of god and theyr neyghbour, coulde brynge them in his fauour. Agaynst which fond and frantyke imagynacyō C / saynt Iohn̄, though he say who so euer cōfesse yt Iesus is ye son of god dwelleth in hym & he in hym: yet he warneth vs well and playnely, yt he wolde no man sholde begyle vs, and make vs wene that wyth y confessyon and that bylyefe alone he were a good man / but sayth, by thys shall ye se who be chyldrē of god, and who chyldren of the deuyll / for he yt is not ryghtuous is not of god. And sayth also, lytle chyldrē let no man begyle you / he yt doth ryghtuousnesse is ryghtuous, and he yt doth synne is of ye deuyll.

Now may we clerely perceyue, that these onely wordes of saynt Iohn̄ vtterly destroye Tyndals heresye, groūded vppon hys false exposycion of saynt Iohn̄s other wordes. For when saynt Iohn̄ sayth here hym selfe, that the chyl­dren of god and the chyldren of the deuyll be manyfest and [Page lv] A open by theyr outward workes: how can that stande with Tyndals exposycyon and hys heresye dependynge theruppon, by whyche he sayth that the trew membres of the elect chyrch, may fall into the doyng of horryble dedes, thorowe the frute of the synne remaynyng in theyr membres, & vp­pon great occasyons brekyng out of theyr membres / & yet for all those horryble dedys done by them they be the chyl­dren of god styll, & neuer become ye children of ye deuyll for all ye doing of theyr horrible dedes, bycause they do thē not of malyce nor of purpose, but of fraylty onely & weykenes.

ye se good reders openly, that yf Tyndale in thys hys heresye & false exposycyon of saynte Iohn̄ sayd trew / then sholde saynt Iohn̄ hym selfe say vntrew, where he sayth yt by the outwarde dedes,1. [...]. the chyldren of god and the chyl­dren B of the deuyll be made manyfest & open. For they were not open by the dede, yf notwythstandyng the most horry­ble dedes yt coulde be deuysed, yet theyr secret vnknowen fayth & frayltye dyd euer kepe it secrete hydde & vnknowē, whyther they were at the dede doyng y chyldren of god or the deuyll. And therfore where as Tyndale wold make vs wene, y hym selfe & hys holy felowes had by theyr felynge fayth the spyryte of god, in such a specyall maner entred in to theyr holy brestes, yt none of theyr abomynable dedes coulde be any dedely synne, bycause yt the spyryte sayth he dwelleth styll within them: saynt Iohn̄ sayth in the very ende of that thyrde chapyter, who so kepeth goddes com­maūdemētes, in hym god dwelleth. And by that marke we know sayth saynt Iohn̄, y there is dwellynge in vs of the C spyryt yt he hath gyuen vs. By whych wordes he declareth clerely, yt when these holy heretykes breke his cōmaūdemē tes, by those horryble dedes which Tyndale hym selfe confesseth y they do, & as all the worlde seeth frere Luther do, in weddyng the nūne, wyth the brech of theyr both vowys agaynst the cōmaundemēt of god, which hath in holy scripture expressely cōmaunded them to kepe and fulfyll theyr vowys: saynt Iohn̄ I saye declareth agaynste Tyndals doctryne clerely, that when we se suche dedes in them, we maye well perceyue by them that there is at that tyme ne­uer a whyt of goddes good spyryte in them.

But now no man dowteth whyther of the two, better vnderstode saynt Iohn̄ / whyther Tyndale or saynt Iohn̄ hym selfe. And therfore good crysten readers, whyle ye se [Page lvi] that these holy fathers and authours of these heresyes,A prechynge so sayntly of theyr felynge fayth, boste them self and theyr felowes for the sure chyldrē of god, that bycause of the spyryte can neuer synne of purpose, and therfore ne­uer synne dedely, but be certayne and sure of grace and saluacyon / and yet ye se for all this, that beyng professed mū ­kes and freres, they fall to the fleshely felynge of nōnes, of longe purpose, and styll perceuer therin, & fynally dyuers dye therin to: ye maye byleue here saynte Iohn̄, that saye they what they wyll, they be the deuyls chyldren in dede, & all theyr holy doctryne is vtterly no thynge ellys but very frantyke blasphemy.

And therfore fynally, where as Tyndale knytteth vp all hys mater wyth a quyppe agaynste me, and sayth that bycause euery man that onys hath the ryght fayth is born B of god, and therby hath the seed of god in hym, whych pre­serueth hym so that he can neuer synne / therfore it is sayth he a false conclusyon that M. More holdeth, how a man maye haue a ryght fayth ioyned wyth all kyndes of abo­mynacyon and synne: ye se now that hys owne conclusyō is so clerely proued false, that it letteth my conclusyon no thynge at all. And yet shall I forther towche hys quyppe where it shall haue better place, after that we shall come to the chapyters, in whyche he shall open and declare hys vt­termost what he calleth fayth. But fyrste wyll I consyder a lytell hys ferther progresse in thys chapyter, in whych he goth forth in thys wyse.

Tyndale.

And yet euery member of Crystes congregacyon is a synner, and synneth C dayly some more and some lesse. For it is wryten .1. Iohn̄. 1. yf we saye we haue no synne, we deceyue our selues and the tr [...]eth is not in vs. And agayn, yf we saye we haue not synned, we make hym a lyar and hys worde is not in vs. And Paul Rom. 7. sayth, That good whych I wolde that do I not / but that euyll whyche I wolde not that do I. So it is not I. that do it (sayth he) but synne that dwelleth in me.

More.

Lo now ye here hys wurshypfull rydle / in the fyrst part wherof he hath all redy shewed vs, that a trewe member of Crystes chyrch synneth not, bycause it hath y ryght fayth / and so is borne agayne of god and hath hys spyryt, and by cause of that can neuer synne. And now he sheweth vs in the tother parte of hys rydle, that euery trewe member of [Page lvii] A Crystes chyrche, for all that he neuer synneth yet he syn­neth dayly. And as he proued the fyrste parte by the wor­des of saynt Iohn̄ falsely taken and vnderstanden / so doth he now proue vs the seconde parte by the wordes of say [...]t Poule, vnderstanden & construed as falsely as euer he cō ­strued saynt Iohn̄.

For where as saynt Poule in hys pystle to y Romayns, speketh of the pronytye and mocyons in the fleshe remay­nynge, as the relyques of orygynall synne, wherby we be tycled towarde great actuall dedely synnes, and dayly fall in to venyall: Tyndale as appereth by hys wordes nexte after folowynge, wolde we sholde wene that saynt Poule meneth, that euery trew member may dayly fall into great horryble dedes, as periury, manslaughter, and aduowtry, B of weykenes and fraylte / and that all those abomynable dedes be no dedely synnes yet but venyall euerychone, by­cause it is not the man that doth it, but the synne that dwelleth in hym. And whyle saynte Poule sayth the wordes of hym selfe / Tyndale so layeth them forth, that he wolde we sholde take it that saynt Poule hym selfe [...] or at the lest wyse yf not hym selfe yet the synne that dwelled in hym, cōmyt­ted in very dede many suche horryble dedes, as the deuyll and the fleshe dyd moue and styre hym to. And then was it well lykely that he dyd inough. For well ye wote y deuyll wolde not fere to set hys f [...]eshe on fyre, and tempte hym to lechery & manslaughter both / whyle he fered not to [...]empte our sauyour hym selfe, to glotony, couetyse, & pryde, deuyll worshyp and selfe slaughte [...] to.Matt [...]. [...]. And saynt Poule hym self C cōfesseth, that for a medicyne preseruatyue agaynst pryde,2. C [...]r. 12. there was gyuen hym the angell of Sathan, the prycke of the flesh, to dabbe hym in the necke and make hym stowpe and be [...] hym.

And it appereth playnely, that Tyndale taketh saynte Poulys wordes spokē of hym selfe, to sygnyfye not one [...]y styrynge and incytacyons towarde dedely synfull dedes / but also the very dedes commytted and done as he calleth it of fraylte, by the vyolence of those mocyons. For yf he meane not so / he layed those wordes nothyng to hys pur­pose, as it appereth openly by those hys owne wordes fo­lowynge.

Tyndale.

Thus are we synners and no synners. No synners yf thou loke vnto the pro­fessyon [Page lviii] of our hartes towarde the lawe of god, on our r [...]pent [...]unce and sorow A th [...]t we haue, bothe bycause we haue synned and also bycause we be yet full of synne styll, and vnto the promyses of mercy in our sauy [...]ur Cryste and vnto our fayth. Synners are we, yf thou loke vnto the [...]rayltye of our flesshe, whyche is as the weakenesse of one that is newly rec [...]uered out of a greate dysease / by the reason wherof our dedes are imperf [...]t, and by the reason wherof also when occasyons be greate, we fall into horrible dedes, and the [...]rute of the synne whych remayneth in our membres breketh out. Notwithstandynge yet the spyryte leueth vs not, but rebuketh vs and bryngeth vs home agayne vnto our professyon / so that we neuer caste of the yoke of god from our neckes, neyther yelde vp our selues vnto synne for to serue it, but fyghte a fr [...]she and begynne a new b [...]tayle.

More.

Lo good crysten reders, here haue ye herde a full vncrysten tale of an euyll crysten man. For now se ye clerely that B by playne expresse wordes, Tyndale telleth vs that a trew member of Crystes chyrche breketh out in to hor [...]yble de­des when the occasyons be great / and yet he sayth that for all that he synneth not dedely. And thys is the thynge, for the profe wherof he bryngeth forth hys fore rehersed wor­des of saynt Poule / by whyche he wolde make it seme, that saynt Poule dyd hym selfe so to.

And yet kepeth he hys accustumed guyse as farre as he can, in couerynge hym selfe and colourynge hys mater frō knowlege. And therfore he cometh in wyth synnynge and yet not synnyng. And for the redyng of that rydle, he sayth that the trew members of Crystes chyrch are synners and yet no synners. And amonge them he setteth hym selfe / sayenge of hym selfe and hys felowes, we be no synners yf thou C loke vppon the professyon of our hartes towarde the law of god, and on our repentaunce and sorowe that we haue synned and also bycause we be yet full of synne styll, and on to the promyses of mercy that is in our sauyo [...]r Cryst and vnto our fayth. And synners are we, yf thou loke to the frayltye of our fleshe by whiche we fall into horryble dedes, and the frute of synne whych remay­neth in our membres breketh out.

Here wolde I that Tyndale sholde somwhat more cle­rely tell vs what he meaneth in thys mater / whyther he meane that a trew mēber synneth not dedely all the whyle that he resysteth, and doth not the synfull horryble dede, as for ensample māslaughter or aduoutry. And that then agayne he synneth not, when that after the dede done he repenteth and is sory for hys euyll dede, and ys forgeuen of [Page lix] A god thorowe the promises of mercy in our sauiour Cryste, for the repentaunce & sorow & for the fayth. Let Tyndale I say tell vs whyther he mene thus / or ellys that hym self & hys other felowes the trew membres of chrystes chyrch do not synne dedely in the very tyme neyther, in whyche they consent to do those horrible synfull dedes, or rather in the tyme while they be in the doyng / for cōsent to the synne he sayth they neuer do.

By these wordes of hys we be no synners, yf thou loke to the professiō of our hartes to the law of god, & vnto our repentaūce & sorow that we haue synned / it may seme that he meneth the fyrst way, that is to wyt that they synne not all the while that they resiste the mocion to the dede, & that they synne not also, when that after the dede they take re­pentaunce B & sorow therfore.

Now yf he meane to rede hys rydle on thys fashyon / then he soyleth hys straunge rydle as bloutely, as an olde wyfe of Culnam dyd onys amonge scholers of Oxen­forde, that sogerned wyth her for deth. whyche whyle they were on a tyme for theyr sporte purposynge rydles among theym, she bygā to put forth one of hers to / & sayed arede my ridle, what is that I knewe one that shott at an harte & kylled an haddoke. And when we had euery body mych mused how y myght be, & thā prayed her to declare her ridle her selfe / after longe request she sayd at the laste, that there was onys a fyssher that came a londe in a place where he sawe an hart and shott thereat, but he hit it not / & afterwarde he went agayne to the see and caught an had­doke C and kylled it. And surely Tyndale redeth hys rydle myche lyke, yf he vnderstande by hys rydle they synne and y [...]t synne not. That they synne not whyle they resiste y mocions, nor when they repent the dede / and that they synne whyle they be in doynge. For that is no more to say but in one tyme they synne, and in another they synne not. And when [...] synne then they synne / and whē they synne not than they synne not. were not here a wyse rydle wene ye & well declared, yf he mene it thus? And that he so meneth I saye it semeth by hys wordes afore rehersed / and also by these that he sayth, the spirit calleth vs home agayne. whereby it se­meth that he meneth, we were onys gone from home and afterwarde be brought agayne.

Howe be it on the tother syde, he maye peraduēture mene [Page lx] by these wordes, we be no synners yf thou loke to the pro­fession A of our hartes towarde the lawe of god / that euyn styll in the very tyme in whyche they go aboute to brynge theyre horrible dedes to passe, and in whych they do theym to / yet professe they the lawe of god styl with theyre harte. And so may he seme to mene as well by other wordes in y chapitres folowyng, as by these wordes in thys presente chapytre, where he sayth, we caste neuer of the yoke of god from our neckes, neyther yelde our selues vnto synne for to serue it, but fyghte a freshe and begynne a new batayle. By these wordes it semeth, and of trouth so I trow he fully meneth, as appereth by sundry other chapyters of this boke / & yet moste especyally by hys exposicyon vppon the fyrst pystle of saynt Iohn̄: y though they synne in that they haue the mocions of synne, the reli­ques of oryginall synne remaynyng in the flesshe, yet by­cause B they be borne of god by the ryghte faythe, that is as Tyndale expouneth yt, by the byliefe of the fayth confes­sed by saynt Peter, that Iesus is Chryste the son of god & our redemer / and bycause they haue that bylyefe, not only thorow the wordes of men preched vnto theym, whyche faythe is as he saythe hereafter but hystoricall, faynte, and sone goone / but haue yt grauē in theyr hartys by god (whych he calleth hereafter the felynge fayth) by whyche fayth he sayth that they fele theym selfe to byleue in god, & put theyr hole hope and truste of saluacyon in god, by the passyon of Chryste without any respecte of any good wor­kes / & fele and be sure that god loueth theym, & that they be in hys fauour, & be trew chosen mēbres of his elect chyrch, and shall neuer be dampned / and by thys felyng faythe be C borne of god, & that therfore they haue the spyryt of god in theym, by reason wherof they can neuer synne dedely / for ye spyryt (sayth he) shall neuer suffer theym to synne of purpose, but all the horryble dedes that they shall do, shalbe one­ly of wekenes and frayletye of the flesshe vppon grete oc­casyons, when the frute of synne that remayneth in theyre mēbres breketh owte: for thys cause he sayth that though the mocyon of the fleshe towarde horryble dedes be synne, and therfore they synne / yet bycause of theyr felyng fayth, they kepe styll in theyre hartes theyre professyon towarde the lawe of god. And when they haue done the dedes & ta­ken a fall / yet caste they neuer of the yoke of god of theyr nekkes / nor yelde them self vnto synne to serue it, but whē [Page lxi] A the rage is ones passed, then ryse vp lyke lusty galyardes agayn, & fyght a fresh, & cry a new feld a new, & begynne a new batayle / & then is (saith he) all forgiuē thē quyte, & they clene assoyled of god both from synne & payne / & no payne shall suffer any tyme after for the synne passed before, ney­ther in purgotory nor in thys worlde neyther. And therfore neyther in goynge about theyr horryble dedes, nor in the commyttyng of them / he sayth they neuer synne dedely nor neuer can, be the dede neuer so abomynable. And suche as farre lesse were dedely and dampnable in a nother man, that were not so borne of god by suche a felynge fayth as they be, nor hadde receyued the seed of god in hym as they haue / whyche seed ones had can neuer suffer them to synne of purpose, and therfore neuer dedely after.

B All be it that as I haue oftē tolde you, Tyndale partely for the vncertayntye of hym selfe in hys opynyons, after whyche he grysped and longe felte aboute here and there in the darke, ere euer he well wyste where he wold reste and setle hym selfe / and partely bycause he perceyued in hys owne conscyence hys heresyes not onely so noughty, but also so sottisshe that he was ashamed of them / and therfo [...]e euer so labored to set hys wordes in suche obscure & dowt­full fashyon, that he myghte haue alwaye some refuge at some startynge hole: yet of very trouth in conclusyon, whē he sawe the worlde wax in some partys of Almayne so su­rely fyxed and confermed in all kynde of heresyes, yt there coulde none errour so folys [...]he nor so frantyke be deuysed, but a man myghte he bolde to set it forth, & sholde not fayle C to fynde fonde felowes [...]now to folow it / hopyng then that he sholde lytell & lytell at length brynge the people of thys realme vnto the same poynt, he hath fynally so set fo [...]th the mater in this boke of his answere vnto my dyaloge, & yet mych more opēly in his exposycyō vpon the fyrste pystle of saynt Iohn̄, that any lerned ma [...] which aduysedly redeth those twayne, shall neuer after dowte, but y his rydle of the trew mēbre of theyr electe chyrche synnyng euer & yet syn­ning neuer, he meneth very playn & expressely ī such maner as I haue now last declared you. And therfore let vs now cōsider how he may mayntayne his menyng, & what good frute wyll folow therupō, in y felyng of such holy mēbres.

Syth Tyndale agreeth, that bothe Luther & hym selfe, and all other the trewe membres of the electe chyrche, may [Page lxii] do greate horryble dedes suche as he denyeth not to be in A other men dedely and dampnable: we must enserche with hym and aske of hym, what is the thynge that maketh the same horryble dedes whyche sholde be dedely in a nother, to be not dedely in Luther or hym, or any suche other trew membre of theyr electe chyrche.

He wyll peraduenture answere vs & say, it is no dedely synne in them, bycause that god doth afterward vpō theyr repentaūce & sorow taken for theyr synne, forgyue them the deth & all maner of payne dew to ye horryble dede by them before cōmitted / & that therfore it is not dedely to them, bycause by goddes remyssyon and pardō it is prouyded that they shall not dye. Thys answere of Tyndale is very slender / for it implyeth the cōtrary of yt it sholde proue. For it declareth yt the dede is dedely, & that he synneth dedely.B For ellys god dyd not pardon hym the deth vppon hys re­pentaūce, yf deth were not dew to hys dede.

And I do not now lay to them the tyme before theyr cō ­sent vnto the dede, nor the tyme of theyr repentaūce after theyr euyll dede / but the tyme in whych theyr wyll cōsen [...]ed and agreed to do it, & the tyme in which they dyd it in dede / in thys mene tyme say I they synne dedely in dede.

Nay sayth Tyndale, for afterwarde we repente, and by and by god forgyueth vs the deth, for hys mercy in our sa­uyour Chryst, and for our fayth, and for hys promyses.

Thys wyse answere is mych lyke, as though he wolde tell vs that one which had robbed a chyrche were a thefe & yet not a thefe. A thefe bycause he had stolē away ye chalyce, & yet not a thefe bycause ye kyng had gyuē hym a pardon.C

Tyndale wyll yet happely say, yt the thefe was not sure before yt he shold haue his pardō after / but Luther & he & such other trew mēbres of theyr electe chyrch, be sure by goddes ꝓmises, yt vpō theyr repētaūce they shall haue theyr pardō.

But then aske we hym agayne, though he knowe by the promyse that vpon repentaūce he shall haue pardon / how knoweth he and what promyse hath he, that when he hath commytted horryble dedes, he shall haue after the grace gyuen hym to take such repentaūce as ye pardō shall folow.

Hereto shall Tyndale saye that hym selfe & hys felowes do fele by theyr felyng fayth, that they be borne of god, and that they haue his seed within them / by whych they be well assured that they shall neuer do any such dede, as they shall [Page lxiii] A spyrytually dye for / but is very sure and feleth well by hys felyng fayth, yt the spyryt wyll call hym home agayn after, be he neuer so farre gone, and wyll cause hym to repente, & so gete hym hys pardon.

Of thys opyniō be they very surely / wherof ye se well foloweth no lytell occasyan of bolde settynge forwarde vnto synne. For yf a prynce wolde promyse euery man a perdon byfore hand, yt wold so surely truste vpon his promyse, as what so euer he shold do he wolde not let to come & aske it / no mā dowteth I suppose what plenty thys promyse wold make of all kynde of vnthryftes. But as for god, though he haue made a trew faythfull ꝓmyse of pardō, to all trew repētaūtes & penitētes what minde or purpose so euer they had byfore (the truth of which promyse Tyndale yet mys­trusteth B in them ye synne willyngly & of purpose, & playnely sayth yt they shall neuer haue pardon) yet hath our lorde of his godnes & wysdome left one brydle boūde about mēnes heddes to refrayne them frō boldenes of synne, yt is to wyt yt they can not after theyr synfull dedes repente agayne of thē selfe without his specyall grace. which though he doth of his goodnes comēly offer / yet be they not put in surty byfore, yt it shalbe so offred vnto thē. But yt yf they so boldely make them self sure therof byfore, yt the corage therof gyue them occasyō to synne / it may be ye cause yt god shall clerely withdraw it frō them, & neuer offer it them after. And thys vncertaynty of grace to folow is ye brydle yt refrayneth our boldenes / where as Tyndale & his holy felowes the trewe mēbres of Crystes chyrch, feling by theyr feling fayth that C after theyr horrible dedes done, they shall vndowtedly take repētaūce & so gete theyr pardon / haue this brydle of drede cast of theyr hed, & therfore are redy lyke vnbrydled coltes to rūne out at rouers in all horrible dedes whyther so euer ye occasyōs of theyr wyld affeccyōs, & the synne as Tindale sayth brekyng out in theyr mēbres, lyst to cary theym. For whē they be caryed out vpō occasyōs by ye deuyll & ye flesh / then Tyndale calleth it but frayltye & infyrmyte, & no wyll in no wise nor no malycyous purpose. And therfore of this heresy, without which they can not defēde theyr other, ye se what good frute must folow. And yet suppose yt Tyndals false heresy were trew, & yt they were as certayn & sure of repētaūce, & therby of remissyō & pardon, as they say they be / this wold not yet mayntayne his mater. For though that a traytoure were so well acquaynted with the condycyon of [Page lxiiii] hys kynge, that he veryly knewe that when he hadde all A wrought that he coude in his traytorouse purpose agaynst hym, he sholde yet after obtayne his pardon, and therupon boldely so dyd, vpon some occasion and hope of some hygh promocyon, and afterwarde were not deceyued but obtay­ned hys pardon in dede: yet had he ben for all that a stark traytour in the meane whyle, and hadde dedely trespassed, though the deth folowed not, but the faute were fully for­gyuen. And so mych the more traytorouse wretche, in how mych the prynce were of hys nature more benyng and marcyfull. And thus ye se playnely that Tyndale to proue his rydle trewe, that though he synne he synneth neuer dedeli / muste seke some better shyfte then thys.

Tyndale wyll saye that hys felowys & he do not synne dedely in the tyme of the doynge of suche horryble dedes,B bycause as they say they do them not of purpose nor wyl­lyngly, nor do not cōsent vnto synne to serue it / but all the whyle that they go there aboute, and all the whyle also in whyche they be in doynge, they resyste it in theyr wylles, & haue styll in theyr hartes theyr professyon to the loue of the lawe, and be sory that they shall breke it / & fynally do breke it agaynst theyr wyll by greate occasyons gyuen, whyche cary them forth to the doynge of those horryble dedes, in a rage of the synne brekynge out of theyr membres. whyche horryble dedes after the rage ones passed, they repente all waye and forthwyth be clene forgyuen.

Is not here good reder a goodly defence and a godly? And vndowtedly thys is theyr very defence in defendynge them selfe from dedely synne, as Tyndals awne wordes C as well in thys chapyter as in other folowynge, do playne and clerely shew.

But now seeth euery good chrysten man well inowgh, that they be wyckedly occupyed,Psalmo. 140. in sekyng as holy Dauid saith, excuses for theyr synne. For there is no man doth any suche dede agaynste hys wyll / but all be it that he resyste ye mocyon of the deuyll and the flesh at the fyrste, & cleuynge to the contrary styrynge of god and hys good angell, re­pugneth and stryueth agaynste the synne and is peraduenture loth to be brought therto / whych doyng is very godd, and therby good folke fynally caste of and ouercome all those temptacions thorow the grace of god wurkyng with thē: yet suche as in conclusyon fall to the doynge of those [Page lxv] A horryble dedes whyche they be tempted to, though they be not fully so euyll as other that resyste the deuyll nothynge at all, but rather runne on apace towarde hell them selfe, then tary tyll the deuyll come to cary them / yet do they vn­dowtedly thorow theyr owne defaute fall from the grace wyllyngly, that holpe them whyle they resysted. And as it were a cowarde that had fought a whyle, wolde sodaynly caste awaye bothe bukler and swerde, & fall downe at hys enemyes fete, and yelde hym selfe in to hys enemyes han­des: so do these folke which cōmytte those horryble dedes, after a whyle resystynge, by whyche by goddes helpe they sholde haue had the victory yf they wolde haue perseuered in the fyght / they chaunge theyr mynde by ye faute of theyr owne fre wyll, thorow the delectacyon of the synfull dede, B and so consent vnto the same, and then seke them selfe the waye to come therto, and the deuyll helpeth them to fynde it / and so breke they wyllyngly goddes commaundement, and fulfyll the pleasure of the deuyll and the luste of the fleshe. whyche wylfull fallynge from god and hys grace, vnto the deuyll and the flesh / what god man dowteth to be dampnable dedely synne?

And therfore whan Tyndale telleth vs that Luther and he and suche other trewe membres of theyr chyrche, whā they commytte ony suche horryble dedes, do not cōmytte theym wyllyngly, bycause they do commytte theym vpon great occasyons, and be caryed awaye spyte of theyr tethe with the rage of the synne that breketh out of theyr membres: sauynge my charyte syr I beshrewe theyr knauysshe mem­bres, C out of whiche theyr synne breketh forthe with suche a rage. Let theym cast on colde water with sorow, & quenche that rage.

For without the defawte of theyr owne fre wyll, all the deuyls in hell can neuer caste vpon theym suche an hete, that shalbe able to brynge theym into that vyolent inuyn­cyble rage, to compell theym vnwyllyngly to do suche hor­ryble dedes. For god hathe promysed as in playne scryp­ture appereth, that he wyll neuer so suffre theym.1. Corint [...]. 1 [...]. God is faythfull sayth saynt Poule, whiche shall not suffre you to be tēpted aboue y ye may bere / but with the tēptacyon shall also make you a way to get out, so that ye may well welde it. And whan saynt Poule hym selfe,2. Corint [...]. 12. leste the greatnes of his hyghe reuelacyons myght haue set hym vp in an hygh [Page lxvi] pryde, had thorow goddes great mercyfull goodnes the A angell of Sathan the prycke of the flesshe, gyuē vnto hym to bete hym, & that in suche wyse that he was fayne thryes to cry to god to take it away: our lord agayne shewed hym that it was not good for hym to lacke it so soone, nor to haue it so sodenly taken away from hym / but shewed hym that his grace was suffycyent. whose strengthe in man­nes feblenes so worketh with the fre wyll of hym that pur­poseth to contynue good, that all the deuyls in hell shall neuer be able to put hym in suche a rage, that may cary hym towarde horryble dedes one here bredth forwarde agaynst his wyll. And thus ye se that Tyndale as towchynge his ryall rydle of synnynge and synnynge not, is now brought to that poynt that he can not rede his owne rydle hym self / excepte he wyll peraduenture saye that it is neuer dedely B synne though it be doone wyllyngly, but yf a man consent to the synne, and than wyll vnderstande therby, that he cō ­senteth not to the synne that consenteth to the dede, but yf he consent that the dede shulde be synne / & so that he which agreeth to do auoutry doth not synne, bycause he doth not consent that aduoutry shulde be synne, but rather wolde it were none. Excepte Tyndale mene some suche farre fette wyse inuencyon / elles can I not in good faythe perceyue how he can helpe Luther and hym selfe and other holy he­retyques the trewe membres of theyr electe chyrche, from consentynge to synne / whan they do as he confesseth horryble dedes vpon great occasyons thorow the rage of synne, buddyge and bryngynge forthe the fruyte that bredeth out of theyr vngracious membres.C

For yf he lake for any helpe of these wordes, where he sayth that they yelde not theym selues vnto syn for to serue it / as though other folke whan they do synne do entende to serue synne / but they for holynesse of theyr felynge faythe, in the doynge of theyr synnes do not entende to serue the synne, but to make the synne to serue theym and do theym pleasure at theyr owne luste and lykynge: let hym for an­swere loke how saynt Austayne mocketh in lyke case an olde fylosopher / whiche beynge asked why he was not ashamed to haue an harlot as other rybaudes had, answe­red for his defence that there was great dyfferēce bytwene his dede & theyrs. For as for theym they had not the har­lot but the harlot had theym. But as for hym he had the harlot & not the harlot hym. And ther was by saynt Sym, [Page lxvii] A a propre reason and a trym. A fayre bost for a phylosofer to haue an harlot at his wyll, that lay with euery man by­syde at her wyll. Now Tyndale maketh here a lyke boste for to excuse hym and his felowes, sayenge, we fall whan the oc­casyons be great into horryble dedes, and the fruyte of the synne whiche remay­neth in our membres breketh out, but yet we neuer yelde our selues vnto synne to serue it / menyng of lykelyhed that the synne shall serue thē, as the harlot dyd the folyshe phylosofer. But our sauyour hym selfe wypeth a way clene all the worshyp of Tyndales worde, whan he sayth playnly that who so euer do synne, is by the doynge bycome the bonde thrall of synne. And so by y very trewe tale of Chryst, Tyndales false tale is auoyded. For whan so euer he yeldeth hym selfe to do horryble dedes, whiche he sayth they fall in vpon great occasyons, B whan the fruyte of the synne remaynynge in theyr mysche­uous membres breketh out at large / than forthwith for all theyr felynge fayth, by theyr foule fleshly felynge in the doynge theyr fylthy deuelyshe dede, they yelde them selues to serue the synne, and by the synne to serue the deuyll / & the deuyll to serue them agayne, fyrste here for a lytell whyl [...] with a lytell fylthy pleasure, and after in hell for euer with blowynge the fyre aboute them.

For as towchyng Tyndales wordes folowynge, where he sayth they wyll ryse and fyght a freshe and begynne a new batayle: these wordes make nothynge to the purpose / for they were neuer able to ryse agayne alone. And yf god lyfte them vp as many tymes he dothe / yet were they not sure that he so wolde for he dothe not euer so to euery man. C And of which sorte hym selfe is, that can he neuer tell what so e [...]er he bable.

And also yf he dyd alway so, & that they were also sure byfore that he wold allway so do after / yet can it not serue Tyndale in this poynt. For we speke of the dedely synne in the tyme of his fall, and of the seruitude and thraldom that he lyeth in, all the whyle that he lyeth prostrate vnder the deuyls fote, and not that after that god hath goten hym vp agayne / and therfore those wordes wyll not helpe

How be it of trouthe Tyndales wordes wryten a lytell before, yf they were trewe as they be not, wolde make more for the profe of his purpose / where he saythe that thoughe they fall into horryble dedes, vpon great occasyons whan the [...]rute of the synne remaynynge in theyr flesshe breketh [Page lxviii] out of theyr membres, yet they neuer caste of the yoke of A god fro theyr neckes.

These wordes yf they were trewe, wolde make in dede somwhat for theyr purpose. For yf it so were that for all the doynge of theyr horryble dedes, they dyd neuer cast of the yoke of god fro theyr neckes: than myght it seme that in the tyme of the doynge they dyd not yet synne dedely, syth theyr neckes were yet styll bouden within the yoke of obe­dyence to the loue of god, & that they had not shaken that yoke of.

But of truthe those wordes are vntrew. For whan they do those horryble dedes, whiche god hathe vpon peyne of eternall dethe precysely forboden them / & whiche no temp­tacyon can cause them so to do agaynst theyr wyll, but that they myghte by goddes helpe leue yt vndone yf they B wolde, syth god neuer vseth to deny the helpe of his grace, tyll man leue of his holde by slouth or frowardnes of his owne fre wyll / therfore I say whan they do those horryble dedes thorough the frute of theyr synne brekynge out of theyr bestely membres, they do by the dysobeyng of his precepte, shake of the yoke of god for the whyle / as an euyll ta [...]ched horse shakes of somtyme the brydle & runneth out at large. And than agayne yf it happen that at goddes cal­lynge on, they repent & do penaunce, & purpose to amende & be better, than is the yoke put on agayne / as an vnbryd­led horse somtyme whan he is folowed standeth styll & stayeth at his mayster his whystelyng, and suffreth his brydle to be put on agayne.

Now yf Tyndale say styll, that bycause of his felynge C fayth, whiche whan he hathe ones goten he sayth he can neuer lese after, and that therfore he can neuer after do dede­ly synne, not euen whyle he is in the doynge of suche horryble dedes, as he consenteth that he may fall in thorow the frute of the synne that breketh out of his mēbres: I wolde aske hym yet ones agayne, what is y thynge that after the rage passed h [...] so sore shuld repent and sorowe. For as hym selfe sayth, that thorow suche repentaunce he may haue re­myssyon / why shuld he be so sory for the dede, to the entent to be by sorowfull rep [...]ntaunce made partener of pardon and mercy and restored to lyfe, yf he cōmytted in the doyng no maner of dedely synne.

If he say for sorowe that he hathe offended god, whiche [Page lxix] A greueth hym for the loue & reuerence that he bereth hym, and not for any fere of hell / whiche fere is but seruyle and bonde, and therfore not metely for suche holy folke as Lu­ther is and hym selfe: I answere hym yf that he say tr [...]w, that he consented not, but all was done agayne his wyll / god was not angry with hym nor offended by hym, nor his synne no synne at all. For as saynt Austayn sayth, yf it be done without the wyll it is not synne.

Fynally yf he stycke styll in this poynt, that in ye doynge of those horryble dedes, theyr lyuely felynge fayth, whiche can not as they say but worke well, standeth styll in theym all the whyle that they be doynge these horryble dedes that they fall in vpon great occasyons, thorow the frute of the synne that breketh out of theyr mēbres / and that they ther­fore B do not those horryble synfull dedes them selfe, but the synne that remayneth in theyr membres / and that they re­syst the dede all the whyle they be in doynge, and do not consent nor agre there vnto, nor do it not with theyr harte but onely with theyr mēbres: it wylbe then a wonderous case in my mynde to consyder, what maner a medytacyon and what maner conflycte haue they in thē selfe bytwene theyr harte and theyr membres, when the frute of the synne that remayneth in theyr flesshe agaynst the professyon o [...] theyr harte to the lawe of god, breketh out of theyr membres in­to suche horryble dedes, as take theyr bodyes that were the membres of god,1. Corint [...]. [...]. and make them as saynt Poule sayth the membres of a stynkynge harlot. Fyrst when the deuyll vp­on some syght of a wanton woman, putteth that suggesty­on C in theyr hartes / they make no crosse of lykelyhed ney­ther on theyr forehed nor on theyr brest nor any wher about theyr body. Fo [...] suche blessynge and crossynge Tyndale calleth waggynge with fyngers in the ayre, a [...]d dum ceremo­nyes and ymage seruyce. But lyke holy spy [...]ytuall fathers borne agayne of god and the spyryte, they resyste manfully fyrste, and a great whyle. But whan they resorte vnto her and talke with her more and more, and all agaynste theyr wyll ye wote well / for the deuyll dryueth them thyther, and he must nedes go whom the deuyll dryueth: then all the way they go they say to god and them selfes, ywys though I go thyther with my fete, yet I wyll not agre to go thy­ther with myne harte lo. Nor I wold not come at her at all good lorde, sauynge that vpon the great occasyon that I had when I saw her ones / I then lyked her so well that I [Page lxx] am now caryed thyder euē in a rage. But yet for all y rage A I wyll not cast of thy yoke good lord, but I wyll cary thy yoke styll about my necke to bedde with her, & put it about her necke to, & yoke vs bothe to gether. And yet after all this lo, when all the rage is paste yt now haryeth me forth in an hete thorow the frute of synne, which remaynynge in my flesshe, breketh out of my members / then wyll I repent it good lorde & be sory therfore, and retourne agayne from her to the, or ellys brynge her yoked with me to. And then wyll I pray the of pardon. And then thou most nedes good lorde forthwith at the fyrst worde, gyue me full remyssyon of synne & payne, & all by our holy father the popys leue, so that I shall neuer be punysshed therfore, neyther in hell, purgatory, nor ī this world neyther. And this good mynde good lorde wyll I kepe styll and neuer let it fall out of my B harte / so that all the whyle that I lye bassyng with Besse, & I am doynge y horryble dede with my body / yet wyll I neuer agre therto wyth my harte. Or yf I myshappe for weykenes and fraylte to consent vnto the dede / yet wyll I neuer consent to the synne of the dede / for it shall neuer be synne by my cōsent. Or yf I do cōsent to the synne / yet wyll I not cōsent of purpose & of malyce as the deuyll doth, but of weykenes and fraylty as other holy folke do. Nor at the ferthest I wyll consent no ferther to the synne, but that the synne shall serue me, & not I to serue the synne in no wyse, I wyll be well ware of that. For I thanke the good lorde the seed of thy spyryt that thorow my felyng fayth is in me, can neuer suffer my harte to consent to be seruaunte to any synne, how horryble synnys & how many so euer my mem­bres C do. And therfore euyn whyle I am in doyng / yt thanke be thyne good lorde I do neuer synne dedely, nor neuer shall, nor can / nor neuer am by any synne out of thy fauour nor neuer stande out of the state of grace for any synne that I do or can do, be they neuer so many or neuer so horryble / and suche as one of these peuyshe popysh papystes shall be dampned to the deuyll, yf they do but the fyftenth parte of some suche one, and all for faute of suche a felynge fayth, and suche good medytacyons as I haue.

Is not here a godly medytacyon trew ye. Forsothe I suppose ye shall not fynde suche a nother in all the medytacyons of saynt Barnarde, as holy a man as he was. And I assure you Tyndale and hys felowys, yf theyr holy here syes be trewe / muste nedys in the doynge of euery such horryble [Page lxxi] A dede as Tyndale telleth vs that they fall in, by the ragyouse occasyōs of the synne brekyng out of theyr wredched membres / they must I say nedes haue some such ma­ner of medytacyō in theyr holy hartes, yf they shall both do those horryble dedys, & yet in the tyme of the doyng neuer consent vnto the synne to serue it, but cōtynually kepe styll in theyr myndes the professyon & purpose towarde the law of god / & in all ye tyme of theyr horryble doyng / neuer onys shake of ye yocke of theyr bond toward god / but both abyde boūden styll vnto god, and yet ronne lose at large after the deuyll. These twayne bothe at onys wythout some suche medytacyon can neuer stande to gyther.

Fynally for cōclusyon of this his worshypfull chapyter of euer synnynge & neuer synnynge, where as Tyndale as B though he had clerely proued the thyng wherof he proueth nothyng, cōcludeth agaynst me in thys wyse, And therfore it is afals cōclusion that M. More holdeth, how that a man may haue a ryghte fayth ioyned withall kyn [...]e of all abommacyon and synne: I conclude agaynst Tindale y he cōcludeth clerely ye same. And yet cō ­clude I farther for all ye, that I cōcluded trew & that he cō cludeth false. And thus bycause yt in this chapiter [...] Tindale is as it semeth by his euer synnynge & neuer synnynge, set vpon redyng of rydles for his recreacyon: I put hym my rydle to, y he & I be agreed, & yet we be not agreed / & that he sayth as I say, and yet I say not as he sayth. For where as I sayd & trew I sayde, that a ryghte fayth may stande & abyde with all abomynacyō / menyng therby that the trew ryght bylyefe of all the artycles of ye catholyke fayth maye C be in a man, & yet he may (that bylyefe styll stādyng) fall in to many dedely synnes, without any wrong opyn [...]o taken agayst the ryght bylyefe: now cometh Tyndale & agreeth vnto that, so y he & I be therin agreed. But than wolde he fayne saue his worshyp with sayeng nay / & therfore he de­nyeth that we be agreed. For he sayth yt the thyng which I call the ryght fayth, is not the ryghte fayth. For though a man byleue [...]ayth he neuer so ryght, without any wronge opyniō in any artycle of the fayth / yet but yf he haue trewe trust & full vndowted hope in god, & cheryte therwith also, which sayth he must nedes ensew therupon, els hath he no ryghte fayth. And so Tyndale auoydeth me not with any prouynge, that abomynacyon and synne can not stande wyth the thynge that is in dede a ryghte fayth / but that [Page lxxii] abomynable synne can not stande with the thynge whych A hym selfe calleth the ryght fayth / bycause it pleaseth not hym to call a ryght fayth, that bylyefe that is right inough and hath none artycle wronge therin for as farforth as perteyneth to the nature of onely fayth, but yf it be both fayth and hope and cheryte to / wherin amonge all lerned men that here vs bothe and se hys sotle shyfte, he wynneth so mych worshyp therby, that he maye surely be mych asha­med therof, as often as he thynketh therof.

But marke well good reder, that he cōmeth forth after and sayth, that hym selfe and suche other hys holy compa­nyons the trewe membres of theyr electe chyrch, as haue y ryght fayth and the felynge fayth to, that is to wytte after hys owne doctryne full fayth full hope and cheryte bothe, so surely that it can neuer fall from theym / maye yet for all B theyr ryght fayth fall into abomynable synfull dedes, vpō great occasyons brekyng out of the frute of the synne that remayneth in theyr synfull membres / and maye for a space perseuer in those horryble synfull dedes, and yet all that whyle theyr ryght fayth doth contynue, and theyr abomy­nable synfull dedes to gyder. And so by Tindale hym selfe all abomynacyon and synne maye stande to gyther wyth the ryght fayth, that is not onely wyth the ryght bylyefe alone as I affermed, but wyth the ryght bylyefe & wyth good hope & che­ryte to as Tyndale sayth, whyche I say is playnely false. For surely the thynne sotelty therof my groce wytte can C in no wyse per­ceyue. And thus good chrysten reders for con­clusyon, ye now clerely se to what folysshe conclusyon he hath brought hym selfe in conclusyon / and all thys chapyter of his with his royall rydle of synnynge and not syn­nynge, is royally ronne to ryghte nought.

A How [...] chrysten man can not erre, and how he may yet erre.

Tyndale.

ANd as they synne not, so they erre not. And on the tother syde as they synne, so they erre / but neuer vnto deth and damnacyon. For they neuer synne of purpose, nor holde any errour malycyously synnynge agaynste the holy goost / but of weakenes and infyrmitye. As good obedyent chyldren, though they loue theyr faders commaundementes, yet breke them ofte by the reason of theyr weakenes. And as they can not yelde them selues bond vnto synne to serue it / euyn so they can not erre in any thynge that sholde be agaynste the promyses whiche are in Chryste. And in other thynges theyr errours be B not vnto dampnacyon, though they be neuer so greate, bycause they holde them not malycyously.

More.

I Shall good chrysten readers make no longe worke aboute thys chapyter. For syth the hole somme therof is as ye se no thynge ellys in effecte, but that the trew membres of Tyndals electe chyrche, do oftē erre and yet neuer erre, euyn in lyke maner as they often or rather alwaye synne and yet neuer synne / whyche hys manyfolde folyshe heresyes in euer synnynge and neuer synnynge, I haue many maner wyse playnely refelled and confuted in the chapyter nexte before: I maye therfore & wyll [...]ake a great C dele the lesse laboure and busynesse in thys.

I wyll therfore but put you in remembraunce that all hys mater standeth onely in thys, that hys trewe membres of hys electe chyrche, after that they haue onys goten the trewe fayth that saynt Peter confessed / vnderstandyng the same in suche erronyous wyse as Luther and Tyndale teche them wyth many playne pestylent heresyes therin, as I haue before openly and clerely declared you / and when that they haue onys attayned that fayth, not wyth an hy­storycall maner as a man maye beleue a story, but wyth a felyng fasshyon as the chyld byleueth that the fyre is hote, bycause he hath burned hys fynger, as Tyndale wyll tell you in a nother chapyter after / who so (sayth he) hath onys in suche a fasshyon attayned and goten that fayth / that is [Page lxxiiii] to wytte who so euer is ones enfect with [...]hose heresyes, in A such a fast felyng fashyon, can neuer after erre dāpnably. And why? For two causes sayth Tyndale. One bycause y lyke as they can not synne of purpose, but of weykenesse & infyrmyte / so can he neuer erre in any thynge at all, yt shuld be agaynst the promyses that are in Chryste.

A nother cause is, bycause what other errour so euer such a trew faythfull electe mēber of his electe chyrch happen to falle into, so that it be not agaynst the promyses that are in Chryst, can not be dāpnable be it neuer so grete / all though the trueth that is contrary to that errour, be wryten sayth Tyndale euyn in the very gospell it selfe. And why can it be no dedely synne? bycause sayth Tindale that an elected men ber of his, can not holde it malycyously.

So that by this ye maye clerely se, that Tyndale affer­meth B & techeth for a treuth, that in all other thinges bysyde the promyses / a trewe member of hys electe chyrche maye somtyme erre, but neuer malycyously / and that is to wytte neuer but of weykenesse and furmentye, as hym selfe hath often all redy declared. And therfore they can not in any suche thynge synne dedely nor dampnably, be the thynge neuer so greate, and also wryten in the very gospell as he sayth after to.

By thys also ye may clerely se, that concernyng the pro­myses that are in Chryst / he sayth that a trew member can not erre at all, neyther malycyously nor of fraylte. For syth he graunteth errour of infyrmyte in other thynges onely that towch not the promyses / ye may clerely perceyue that concernynge the promyses he holdeth that a trew mēber of C his electe chyrch can not erre at all in any maner of wyse, neyther of malyce, nor purpose, nor fraylte, nor weykenes, nor infyrimte. So yt as he putteth ī all other poyntes, onely malycyouse errour to be dedely synne & dāpnable / so put­teth he concernyng the promyses, euery maner of errour to be dedely synne and dāpnable / be it of purpose and malice, or of infyrmyte, fraylte, or weykenes / and for that cause a trew member of his electe chyrche can neuer fall therin.

For yf he ment not thus, he wolde not so deuyde [...] these two kyndes of errour / one agaynst the promyses, and the other agaynst other thinges, as ye se hym do / but yf it were to teche vs that the tone were dedely synne and dāpnable euery waye, and the tother neuer dampnable, but yf it were [Page lxxv] A holden of malice / and that therfore the trew member of his electe chyrch maye erre in the tone kynde, so it be not maly­cyously, bycause that ellys it is not dampnable nor dedely synne. But in the tother concernyng the promyses, he can neuer erre at all. And why? but bycause that euery errour therin were dedely synne and dampnable / & that one of his heresyes is as ye haue herd byfore, that a trew member of the elected chyrche can neuer synne dedely. And thys ye se therfore is hys playne doctryne / whych what treuth it hath we shall nowe playnely shew you.

Let vs fyrst begynne with errours agaynst y promyses in Chryst. And therin let Tyndale tell vs fyrste wherfore a trew mēber of his electe chyrch, can not erre in any thynge that is agaynst the promyses y be in Chryst / in suche wyse B as they may in other great artycles of the fayth, that be no promyses. what hath he other to say, but bycause y euery maner errour though it be not holden malycyously, is yet dedely synne & dāpnable, yf it towch any promyse / and that none other errour is dedely synne or dampnable, whyche towcheth no promyse, but yf it be holden malycyously.

Then must we forther aske hym, wherby he woteth and wherby he proueth, yt euery maner errour in euery artycle of any promyse yt is in Chryst, is dedely synne & dāpnable, though it come but of weykenes and fraylty / and none [...]r­rour in any other artycle, be it neuer so great is dampnable & dedely, but yf it be holden of malyce.

we must aske hym wherby he knoweth y it is inowg [...] for his saluacyō, to byleue y promyse of god in Chryst, tha [...] C thorow Chryste he shalbe saued / & byleue not that Chryste & the holy goste be one equale god wyth y father, by which thre persons & one god he shalbe saued. For ye Chryst is one god equale with the father, it is no promise made vnto vs / nor yt the holy goste is so neyther / but it is a thyng by god tolde vnto vs. And I maruayle mych by what menys Tindale can proue vs, that there is any lesse parell in not byle­uynge of goddes other wordes, then in the wordes of hys promyses / syth he byndeth vs to byleue them both a lyke.

The cause of our saluacyō is not the bylyefe of the pro­myse, nor the truste therin neyther, of any proper nature of that bylyefe in the promyse / no more then the nature of our good workes, is able of it selfe for our saluacyon / but the ordynaunce of god, that it pleaseth hym to saue vs for [Page lxxvi] our obedyence of hys commaundement bothe in the by­lyefe A and the worke. For as he coulde yf it so pleased hym, brynge vs all vnto the blysse of heuen wythout any good worke at all / so coulde he yf he lyste, brynge vs all thyther wythout any fayth at all. For he coulde brynge vs thyther wythout any knowledge gyuen vs therof, tyll we came thyther and had it. So it appereth clerely, that the cause of the saluacyon standeth all in the obedyence of goddes cō maundement / wherby he byddeth vs, and by hys byddyng byndeth vs, to captyue our vnderstandynge in to the obe­dyence of fayth and byleue hys promyses.

Now yf thys be thus as of trouth it is / what dowte is there but that we be as vpon lyke rewarde, so vpon lyke parell & payne, bounden to byleue all other thynges yt god telleth vs, as well as the thynges whych he promyseth vs.B

And therfore yf Tyndale wyll to the contrary loke to be byleued of any man in thys poynt / he muste accordynge to hys owne rule [...] brynge forth playne and open scrypture, by whyche god hath tolde vs by wrytynge, that yf we byleue onys hys promyses, care for no more. For as for all other thynges that be no promyses, he wyll that we be at lyberty to byleue as we lyste / so that there be no malyce in vs. And why at more lybertye of byleuynge god in hys other wor­des, then in hys promyses? I can not perceyue what cause Tyndale can imagyne / but yf he be so madde to thynke, that god wyll in all hys other tales that hym lyste to tell vs, though they be wryten in the very gospell as Tyndale sayth after, haue vs yet at lybertye in beleuynge hym, by­cause hym selfe wolde be at lybertye to tell vs for hys plea­sure C somtyme trew talys, and somtyme suche as Tyndale telleth, that is to wytte vntrewth and lyes.

Surely this is a maruelouse tale of Tyndale in my mynde / & a maruelouse dyfference that he putteth bytwene the bylyefe of the promyses and the bylyefe of all the other artycles of the fayth. As though the bylyefe of the promy­ses onely, were so farre aboue the bylyefe of any other ar­tycle / when euery man that any wytte hath, maye well and clerely se, that the bylyefe of the promyses do so depende vpon some other artycles, that the bylyefe of those artycles gone, the bylyefe of the promyses and all to gyther were gone. As who so were (as many haue ben) so madde to by­leue that there were no god at all / wyth hym were goddes [Page lxxvii] A promyses quyte gone. And hys synne were as greate that erred in not byleuynge there were any god, as hys that by­leuynge there were a god, erred yet in that he byleued not that euer he made any promyse to man. And yet in goddes promyses Tyndale meneth onely y promyses of god made vnto mankynde / for so farre go saynt Peters wordes,Matth. 16. qui in hunc mundum venisti, is Tyndals exposycyon to. And therfore as for Tyndale, ye se well so that he byleue that hys electe chyrche of mankynde shalbe saued / he maye wythout any parell chese whyther he wyll byleue that euer any angell is eternally saued or not / notwythstandyng that Chryst sayd of saynt Iohn̄ the baptyst, that the lest in heuen was greter then he.Lucae. 7. yet bycause it was but a tale tolde by the mouth of Chryst, and not a promyse made / & specyally syth it was B no promyse of any gyfte gyuen to man: Tyndale maye dystruste it and denye it yf he lyste, yf hys wytte haue any such wekenes, and so that he do it not of malice / for all that it is playnely wryten in the very gospell, and there tolde by goddes owne mouth.

Concernynge yet the promyses made to man / let vs cō syder whych thynges be promyses, and whych thynges be not the very promyses, but other artycles besyde. That we shalbe saued thorow Chryst and by Chrystes passyon, is a promyse. And yet that Chryst hym selfe was the same very person, by whom that dede shold be done, is more properly a tale then a promyse. And it maye be that a man byleuyng the promyse that mankynde shall be saued thorow Chryst, may yet erre in not byleuynge y Iesus the sonne of Mary C was that Chryste. And of trouth eyther in that errour or very nere to that errour, be all the hole secte of Iewes. So that it is as great parell not to byleue god in hys tale, whē he sayed thys is my welbeloued sonne in whom I myche delyte / as not to byleue hym in hys promyse made vnto Habraam,Matth. 17. that of hys seed sholde such a sauyour come.Genesis. 22. For it is not all one to promyse that of hym sholde one come by whom the worlde sholde be saued, and to tell hym thys is the man that in my promyse I spake of. For a promise and a tale be not both one thynge. For though euery promyse by in dede a tale, syth no man can make a promyse but yf he tell it: yet is not euery tale a promyse, as euery chylde perceyueth. And therfore saynte Peter toke a sure waye, when he sayed, Thou arte Chryst that arte come into thys [Page lxxviii] worlde / takyng it for a pryncypall poynt to byleue goddes A tale. For the tale that thys was he whyc [...] as our sauyour sayde, the father in heuen had hym selfe tolde vnto Peter, that tale Peter confessed, that Iesus was Chryste whyche was then comen into the worlde. But the promyse whyche was the sauynge of the worlde that sholde be wrought in hym / that thyng saynt Peter spake not of there, as a thyng byleued and loked for afore / nor of the mene of the sauyng that it shulde be by hys passyon, that thynge saynte Peter as Tyndale sayth at that tyme knewe not of / so that ye tale and the promyse were not all one.

But surely cōcernyng the bylyefe of goddys promyses / Tyndale semeth to fare as the Iewes do. For lyke as many of them byleue, that thorow Chryste the world shall be saued / and yet they lese the frute of that bylyefe, bycause B they wyll not knowe who is Chryste: euyn so Tyndale sayth,Matth. 28. that he byleueth Chrystes promyse made vnto hys chyrche here in erth, that hys holy spyryte shalbe therwith vnto the worldes ende, and teche it and lede it into euery trouth.Iohā. 16. But he leseth yet the frute of that bylyefe (yf he by­leue it as he sayth he doth) bycause that he wyll not knowe whyche is Chrystes [...]hyrche here in erth. But lyke as the Turkes in stede of the trew sauyour of the world, worshyp the false deceyuer Machomet / so Tyndale in stede of the trew catholyke chyrche of Chryst (of whych chyrch Chryst wolde that euery man sholde lerne the [...]routh, whyche the holy goste by Chrystes promyse techeth, and euer shall tech vnto it [...] and whyche chyrche muste for that cause nedes be a congregacyo [...] knowen) Tyndale taketh not onely a se­crete C scatered company vnknowen, but also a rable of fals malycyouse heretykes, techyng to the doctryne of goddes spyryt abydyng by Chrystes promyse in his catholyke chyrche, euyn clene the contrary.

And also where as Chryst when he turned the brede into his own precyouse body, & the wyne into his blessed blode, & cōmaūded the same to be done for euer in his chyrch after in remēbraūce of his passyō,Lucae. 22. & dyd in so cōmaūdyng make a faythfull promyse, yt hym selfe wolde be for euer with hys chyrch in that holy sacramēt / & for a perpetuall memory of hys bytter passyon that he suffered for vs, wolde gyue hys owne flessh [...] that suffered passyon, & hys owne blode that was shedde in hys passyon, to abyde perpetually with vs, [Page lxxix] A accordynge to hys owne wordes spoken vnto hys chyrche, when he sayed,Matth. 28. I am with you all dayes vnto the ende of the worlde: Tyndale wyll not now byleue that promyse at all / but as I haue in my fyrst boke by hys owne wordes proued you, maketh mockes and mowes at that blessed sa­crament, and calleth it but cake brede, and reasoneth it ra­ther for starche full lyke a starke heretyke god wote, and sayth it is neyther body nor bloude at all.

And thus where he so hyghly magnifyeth the bylyefe of goddes promyses onely, settynge all other artycles of the fayth as thynges of a seconde sorte / hym selfe byleueth as ye se the promyses as lytell as the tother.

But now let vs go ferther in hys wordes, & se for what cause he sayth, that none other errour in any thynge saue B the promyses can be dampnable, be they neuer so greate. Lo thus he sayth,

Tyndale.

In other thynges that be not the promyses, theyr errours be not vnto dampnacyon, though they be neuer so greate, byca [...]se they holde them not malycyously. As now, yf some when they rede in the new testament of Chrystes bretherne, wolde thynke that they were our ladyes chyldren after the byrth of Chryst, bycause they knowe not the vse of the spekynge of the scryp­ture / or of the Hebrues how that nygh kynnesmen be called bretherne, or happely they myghte be Iosephes chyldren by some fyrste wyfe, neyther can haue any to teache hym for Tyranny that is so greate / yet coude it not hurte hym thowgh he dyed therin, bycause it hurteth not the redempcyon that is in Chrystes blood. For though she had none but Chryst / I am therfore neuer the more saued, neyther yet the lesse though she had had. And in suche lyke an C hundred that plucke not a mans fayth from Chryste, they myghte erre and yet be neuer the lesse saued / no though the cōtrary were wrytē in the gospell. For as in other synnes, as soone as they be rebuked they repent / euen so here as soone as they were better tawght, they sholde immedyately knowledge theyr errour and not resyste.

More.

Here haue ye good reders the reason and ye cause, wher­fore the trew membres of Tyndals chyrch can neuer synne dedely, though they erre in any artycle that is no promyse, be the article neuer so great. The cause is sayth he, bycause that lyke wyse as in all other synnes as soone as they be rebuked they repente / euyn so as soone as they be better taught, they repēt theyr errour, and byleue the trouth, and resyste not / and for that cause it is no dedely synne in the [Page lxxx] mene season, before they be rebuked and taught better, all A though they dyed in those errours, were the artycles neuer so great, and the contrary trouth wryten in the gospell, so that they be none of the promyses.

Thys is the hole somme and effecte of thys hole chapy­ter, though he tryfle with other thynges bytwene. And therfore wyll we fyrste aske hym by what scrypture or by what reason, he proueth that euery person whych is elected to be saued, shall repent as soone as euer he is rebuked of any synne that he doth.

He wyll shew peraduenture, that Dauid dyd so, & hap­pely some other to. That wyll be a very bare argumente. Dauid was an electe person / and he dyd so, ergo euery elected person doth so? Thys argument wyll be very lyke the forme of arguynge, that yonge chyldren vse in grammer B scholes. Asinus meus habet aures, & tu habes aures, ergo tu es asinus meus. Myne asse hath eares, and thou hast eares / ergo thou arte my a [...]se.

Fyrste I suppose y Tyndale wyll hym selfe agre what so euer he sayth here, that suche rebukynge at whyche hys electe persone shall alwaye so soone repente and retourne, hadde nede to come after the rage passed [...] as hym self sayth, that when the rage is paste he shall repente. For yf suche a rebuker come whyle the rage is on hym, whyle the man is forwarde vppon hys vyage, and as Tyndale sayth vpon hys greate occasyons caryed forth wyth concupyscence, thorow the frute of the synne that breketh out of hys mem­bres / the rebuker may fortune at that tyme to speke twyse ere he go backe agayne wyth hym. ye and what so euer C Tyndale say, when the great [...]ge is passed to / yet is there many a man in heuen that hath after baptysme fallen full often to synne, and not repented alway at the fyrst rebuke / but not withstandyng many rebukynges & mych callynge vppon, bothe by theyr frendes and good gostely fathers, ha [...]e yet lyen l [...]nge th [...]in / and [...] all that haue a [...]ter amē ­ded and pro [...]ed full ve [...]tuou [...]e men, and elles g [...]d forbede. And thys poynt is so open and euydent, not onely in scryp­ture, but [...]lso at euery ma [...]nes eye / that I nothynge fere but that euery wyse man, wyll in thys poynte take Tyn­dals [...]al [...] for a very false inuented foly.

A [...] then syth he mak [...]th thys poynt the gro [...]de of the tother [...] that is to wytte that euery electe pers [...] shall [...] in lyke [Page lxxxi] A wyse at the fyrste techyng, as soone as he is better taught, repente euery errour that he holdeth / it shall well folowe that the seconde is as false and as folysshe as the fyrst, and so is it in very dede.

For it maye be full well that a ryght good man maye be mysse ledde by suche as Tyndale is / & thorow such folkes false perswasyons, maye fall in errours and heresyes mo then one, not onely besyde the promyses, but also in the promyses to / extendynge some to farre and cuttynge some to shorte, as Luther, Huyskyn, and Tyndale do. And theyr vntrewe doctryne maye be so depe entred and roted in the good symple soule, that when he is by better men better taught, he shall not repent hys errours at the fyrste nor at the seconde tyme neyther, but defende them many a tyme & B ofte / and yet shall at length wyth helpe of goddes grace, applye hys wyll rather indyfferētly to perceyue the treuth, then frowardly to stycke styll in heresye / & so shall fall in to ye ryght way agayn, and very clerely se that those blynde heretykes had ledde hym in darkenes before.

For ellys yf Tyndale sayd trew, that euery elect person wolde be reformed at the fyrste / it muste folow that who so euer dyd not when he were better taught, retourne and be reformed at the fyrste, w [...]re a fynall reprobate and sholde neuer be saued. And then were it vayne to talke wyth hym ofter then onys, yf he wold not tourne at the fyrst as soone as he were onys well taught. For by Tyndals tale, he y is electe shall by and by a [...]sent vnto the trouth, as soone as it is tolde hym, and forthwyth repent hys errour.

C If the olde holy doctours and sayntes had ben of Tyn­dals mynde / they sholde haue lefte in heresye many a man whom they coulde not conue [...]te at the fyrste, and yet con­uerted them after very well. And truely yf saynt Ambrose had taken it for an vndowted token of inuyncyble malyce in heresye, when so euer hym selfe was not at the fyrst te­chynge byleued and obayed / it is very lykely that he neuer sholde haue c [...]uerted saynt A [...]stayne to the treuth, from mo erro [...]s then one.

For th [...]ugh saynt Poule counsayle Titus,Ad Titum. 4. that ye man why che [...]er [...] an [...]retyke, he sholde after one warnynge or twayn [...] e [...]we [...] y [...]t ment he not to forbyd hym the oftener callynge vp [...]n hym after, wyth good & holsome coūsayle.

For as [...]aynt Chrysosth [...]m sayth, yf the deuyll do not [Page lxxxii] dyspayre to turne a man at last from god vnto hym selfe,A though he myste hys purpose oftentymes before, and that so farforth that he letted not to a [...]say Iob agayne & agayne for all the pacyence that he founde in hym, and all y prayse also that god gaue hym hym selfe / it were a great shame yf a good man sholde dyspayre to conuerte a synner from the deuill to god, bycause he can not bringe it to passe at onys. And yet by Tyndals doctryne, yf a synner dyd not repente at the fyrste rebukynge, and he that were in errour leue his errour at the fyrst trewe techyng / we muste nedes perceyue therby that he were none electe, and consequently that he were a playne reprobate, that fynally sholde be dampned what so euer were sayd or done vnto hym / and that it were therfore in vayne to go any more aboute to tourne hym agayne to god, but l [...]ue hym styll to the deuyll. were not B thys wene you good reders a godly wyse waye?

I dare boldely saye that Tyndale hym selfe yf he shold mete wyth a man of the trewe catholyke fayth, and sholde fynde hym fas [...]e therin when he wolde teche hym hys here­syes / though he coulde not at the fyrste techynge nor at the seconde neyther, brynge hym from the trouth, yet wolde he not leue hym so by hys wyll / but wolde assaye hym ofter, and prece vpon hym styll, not without hope to wynne hym and begyle hym at the laste. Now saye I then to Tyndale, that hys hope of the mannes chaunge to hys secte, eyther bycause hym selfe shall in the laborynge of hym to drawe hym to it, playe the deuyls parte, and thynke that though an electe shall turne from euyll to good alway at the fyrste mocyon, and that therfore yf he turne not at the fyrste it is C in vayn to go any more about hym / yet a reprobate though he turne not from hys present good state vnto synne at the fyrste, shall turne after well inough / and therfore he wyll laboure hym styll to his secte. And then in thynkyng thus, Tyndale taketh y catholyke fayth for good and his owne secte for nought. Or elles yf he take the catholyke fayth for false, from whyche he g [...]th about to gete the man / and hys owne secte for good, to whyche he lab [...]reth to brynge hym: then I saye that syth he wyll not leue of when hys doctryne is resysted at the fyrste, he condem [...]neth play [...]ely the hole tale that he telleth here. For yf euery pe [...]son electe, shall as he sayth here, repente hys errour alway [...] at y fyrst, as soone as he is taught the treuth / then th [...]s man that at [Page lxxxiii] A the fyrste after the treuth onys taughte hym by Tyndale, dyd for all that resyste it / made Tyndale surely to knowe, that he was none of the electes, and that he therfore was a reprobate of god, that fynylly sholde be dampned with the deuyll / & so shold Tyndale lese no more labour about hym.

And thys were thus after Tyndale, though the mānes errour were but in suche artycles as be no promyses. For yf it were in any of the promyses, that Tyndale shold fynd a man after baptisme byleue as ye chyrch byleueth, agaynst the heresyes that he byleueth / that is to wytte byleuynge agaynste Tyndale, that goddes promyse of saluacyon in the blode of Chryste, doth not quyte put awaye shryfte and all penytencyall workes towarde satysfaccyon, and all pu­nysshement for any synne repented, to be sustayned eyther B in thys worlde or purgatory / but that so to byleue & truste in goddes promyse, is a dampnable erroure agaynste god­des promyse: yf Tindale I say fynde such a man, he shold by hys owne tale here perceyue that man forthwith for a desperate heretyke / bycause that yf hym selfe saye trewe, that none electe person can after hys baptysme euer fall in to any errour concernynge any of the promyses, then shold hym selfe knowe that he whom he founde in that errour cō cernynge goddes promyse [...] were a fynall reprobate / & then sholde let hym alone and lese no labour in turnyng of hym. And sauyng my cheryte, I beshrewe hym hartely that he dothe not so.

But thus good Chrysten reders ye maye well perceyue, that there is no treuth in Tyndals tale. And that the profe C of all hys hole conclusyō in thys chapyter, that none electe can fall into any errour agaynste the promyses / and that all other artycles they [...]epente theyr errours as soone as they b [...] taught the t [...]uth [...] and that they repente all theyr other synnes as [...]oone as they be rebuked / hangeth all by the mone shyne. And that neyther of both hys heresyes, to­warde the profe wherof he wolde make thys conclusyon serue / [...] why [...]h two the tone is that none electe person can after hys baptysme synne of purpose nor wyllyngly, and ye [...]other that necessaryly dependeth theruppon, that who so euer after baptysme breke any of goddes cōmaundemētes wyllyngly and of purpose, shall neuer after be saued / can take here none an [...]e holde at all. But as they be bothe twayne by the blast of the deuyls mouth blowē out abrode, [Page lxxxiiii] agaynste the stronge rockes of Chrystes catholyke chyrch,A and the myghty magesty of god / so be they bothe twayne there fallen to wrake, and shatered all to fytters.

yet for bycause that Tyndale in suche thynges as be no promyses / in all whyche thynges he sayth be they neuer so greate, the electe maye erre and dye in that errour for lacke of good techynge, and yet neuer be dampned therfore, by­cause they hurte not the redempcyon that is in Chrystes blode: bycause Tyndale I saye for hys ensample of suche kynde of thynges as be no promyses, putteth y perpetuall vyrginyte of our lady / it is good to cōsyder in what maner he handeleth it.

Tyndale.

If some of them (that is to wytte the trew membres of the electe chyrche) when they rede in the new testament of Chrystes bret [...]e [...]e, wolde thynke B that they were our ladyes chyldren after the byrth of Chryst, bycause they knowe not the vse of the speky [...]ge of the scrypture / or of the Hebrues how that nygh kynnesmen be called brether [...]e, or happely they myghte be Iosephes chyldren [...] by some fyrste wyfe, neyther can haue any to teache hym for Tyranny that is so greate / yet coude it not hurte hym thowgh he dyed therin, bycause it hurteth not the redempcyon that is in Chrystes blood.

More.

Consyder good reder, how many thynges here falle vppon Tyndals hedde at onys, by hys owne fond handelyng of thys ensample.

Fyrste it is foly for hym to put, that for tyranny nowe any man sholde lacke techynge, that those chyldren were not borne of our ladyes body / syth that artycle is as well & comenly knowen as any of y promyses / and as longe hath C ben knowen, and as fully, and as comenly byleued thorow Chrystendome, as any other artycle of the chrysten fayth. And none artycle is there almost in the chrystē fayth which hath not had mo heretykes agaynste it, then this artycle of our ladyes perpetuall vyrginyte / so that it is now so well knowen, and that solucyon also of nygh kyn [...]ed called bre­therne amonge the Hebrews, that Tyndale neuer neded to cumber hys boke therwith.

Bysydes this, hym selfe & his owne doctryne destroyeth hys owne solucyon. For he sayth that we be bounden to byleue none artycle, but yf it be proued by playne scrypture. Now though he teche now the trew members of hys electe chyrche, the thynge that euery chylde can tell all redy, that [Page lxxxv] A amonge the Hebreus the nere kynnesmen were called bre­therne: what hath he taught thē therby? any other thinge, then that the scrypture doth not proue, yt our lady had euer any mo chyldren then Chryst. He doth not yet by the scryp­ture teche his trew membres, to perceyue yt she had no mo, but onely that the scrypture sayth not playne the contrary. But then doth he by hys owne rule bysyde, teche them that they maye byleue at theyr lybertye yf they lyst, that she had mo chyldren in dede. And ferthermore he techeth them, that they shold in no wyse take it for any sure article of theyr by lyefe, that she was a perpetuall vyrgyn, and neuer had mo chyldren after Chryst. Thys poynt he techeth playnely af­ter his maister Luther, as ye haue herd all redy thorow out his hole tytle, wherin he laboreth to proue that ye apostles B haue lefte nothyng vnwryten, the bylyefe wherof were ne­cessary to saluacyō. whych false assercyon of his I haue in dyuers places of my formar bokes clerely cōfuted / & in the ende of my thyrd boke haue answered and auoyded all his hole chapyter therof. But now syth in thys present place, Tyndale hym selfe graunteth, that the cause why an electe person shall be saued, though he happen to erre & thynke yt our lady was not a perpetuall vyrgyn, is bycause that he shall repente that errour when he is taughte the contrary: playne it is to any man, yt hym selfe therin cōfesseth now, yt it is a necessary artycle for saluacyon, that to euery man at the leste wyse to whom it is opened & taught / syth the cause of his saluacyon whyche before byleued the contrary, is by Tyndale hym selfe the repentyng of hys formar errour.

C Now then it is so that Tyndale doth in sundry places, confesse & agre that thys poynt can not be proued by playn and euydente scrypture. Ergo he confesseth here playnely, the cōtrary of that he so fastely before hath affermed, whyle he taught that there is no thyng to be byleued for a suerty, but yf it be proued by playne and euydent scrypture / and that the apostles haue lefte no thynge vnwryten, whyche men are bounden to byleue vppon payne of dampnacyon.

Thys doctryne of hys mayster and his owne hath he as ye now se by hys owne handelyng of this mater, here vtterly destroyed and dampned.

Now yf he wyll happely for shame, laboure to seke some shyfte, and saye that he meaneth no more but to put thys dyfference bytwene the artycles of the fayth in the promy­ses, [Page lxxxvi] and all other artycles, that none errour in any of the A other is dampnable, tyll the man that mysse byleueth be better taughte the trouth / and that then he is bounden to byleue them, whyther they be in scrypture or not / but in the bylyefe of the promyses, euery errour and ignoraunce also is dampnable ere euer they be taught. For no man shalbe saued but yf he be taught them and haue the faythfull by­lyefe of them: thus muste Tyndale nedys saye for aught that I can se / or ellys muste he cōfesse, that one pece of his doctryne playnely destroyeth a nother, cōcernyng his dyf­ference bytwene the promyses and other artycles.

But yet abedeth styll agaynste hym, that syth he confes­seth the perpetuall vyrginyte of our lady, to be now that it is taught necessary to be byleued, whiche is not wryten in scrypture: styll I say standeth it styffely agaynst hym, that B he hath destroyed all his pryncypall grounde, where about his mayster & hym self haue taken so great labour to make men wene that nothyng was necessaryly to be byleued, but yf it were euydentely wryten in holy scrypture.

But now concernynge his dyfference, bytwene the ne­cessyte of the bylyefe of the promyses, and the bylyefe of the other artycles / we shall tell hym y it wylbe peraduenture hard for hym to proue his sayenge trew, specyally takyng the promyses as hym selfe taketh them.

For in the begynnyng vpon the fyrst prechyng of saynt Peter,Ac [...]uū. 2. when there were so many so sodaynly chrystened therupon / wherby can Tyndale proue yt all they were fully taught y fayth of the promyses before they were baptysed, or that none dyed ere euer they were taught any ferther / or C that yf they dyed forthwith vpon theyr baptysme, that then theyr chrystēdome stode theym not in stede for lacke of fer­ther instruccyō of the promyses. Concernyng which I dare be bolde to say, that they were neuer taught the doctryne y Tyndale calleth so necessary, y he techeth the lacke of that fayth in the promise to be dampnable. For they were I say neuer taught, y they must byleue that y promyse shold saue them & gete thē of all theyr synnes at any tyme after theyr baptysme cōmytted, at theyr bare repentaūce, alway full remyssyō of synne & payn, & all in purgatory or in this world eyther, and without any regarde of any good wurke at all, or of any purpose therof, other then bare repentaunce and fayth in the promyses. I dare well saye they dyed all that [Page lxxxvii] A were th [...] baptysed, ere euer they herde any thynge of this poynt [...]f fayth in the promyses / whych was neuer thought vpon by saynt Peter nor any of hys felowes then, nor yet no man elles, tyll it was deuysed by the deuyll, & put forth by heretykes whē cheryte waxed cold many a wynter after.

If Tyndale make vs many questyons of them y were so sodaynly chrystened so many at onys in the begynnyng: we wyll yet be bolde to tell hym y many chyldren dye now soone after yt they come from chrystenyng, ere euer they be weshed out of y chrysome / of which I suppose yt some were neuer taught fully the fayth of the promyses ere they dyed.

If he say to thys that though they were not taughte it actually, yet by the gyfte of god in the sacrament, it is taught and infunded into theyr soules habytually: then B wyll we aske hym wherby he proueth then hys dyfference, bytwen the fayth of the promyses and of the other articles / but yf he proue vs that onely the fayth of the promyses is infused, and of the other artycles not. whych when he proueth you, byleue hym / and in the meane whyle, byleue that hys euasyon is not worth a fly.

If he wyll say that the chyldren baptysed, and so forth­wyth departynge, haue no fayth at all / but be saued onely by the fayth of theyr frendes, and by that our lorde hath receyued them to the sacrament of baptysme, and by the sa­crament of baptysme hath receyued them to grace & glory, without any fayth of theyr owne: then gyueth he to the sa­crament agaynste all hys other doctryne, a great effycacite of grace, and maketh it not onely a sygne. And yet graun­teth C he then bysyde, the thynge that he denyeth / that is to wytte that some maye be saued beynge ignoraūt, not onely of some of the promyses, but also of them all.

Besydes thys, yf we wolde graunte hym the thynge that he can neuer proue: yet were he neuer the nere. For though it were trewe that wythout bylyefe of all the pro­myses, no man myghte be saued / but that the bare igno­raunce of any of them were dampnable, and that the ignoraunce of any other artycle were not dampnable, nor the contrary bylyefe tyll they were opened and taughte: yet syth men were (as Tyndale hath here confessed) bounden vpon payne of dampnacyon to byleue the perpetuall v [...]rginite of our lady, and to repente theyr forma [...] errour to the contrary as soone as they be taughte it, notwythstandyng [Page lxxxviii] that it can not be proued by playne and euydent scrypture:A then muste Tyndale graunte that it is lyke wyse of euery other lyke artycle, that is to saye of euery artycle, whych is trewe and muste be byleued when it is taught bysyde the promyses, though it can not be proued by scrypture, no more then the artycle of y perpetuall vyrginite of our lady.

Then aske we Tindale how knoweth he those artycles whych be necessary artycles of the fayth, of which artycles the contrary bylyefe were dampnable after the trouth of those artycles taught, the same artycles not beynge wrytē in scrypture. Doth Tyndale knowe them by any other meane, then by the chyrche / syth they be not taught hym by scrypture? For it were harde that he sholde in such a mater byleue y authoryte of any one man, but yf that eyther god byd hym byleue hym, or that for lacke of scripture he proue B the trouth of hys doctryne by myracle, or by myracle proue hym selfe to be appoynted by god to teche hym / by reason wherof he myghte be [...]yleued, though he proue not euery partyculare poynt of hys doctryne by a seuerall myracle / excepte as great or greater myracles be done or haue b [...]ne done by some yt techeth or hath taught y cōtrary. In which ꝑplexite god wyll eyther neuer brynge vs or neuer leue vs.

Therfore conclude I, that Tyndale must nedes graūt, that he knoweth not those articles but by the chyrch.Lucae. 10. which chyrche hath proued it selfe by myllions of myracles,Matth. 28. and which chyrche god byddeth hym byleue,Iohā. 16. and sayth he wyll dwell therwyth alwayes, and sende hys spyryt to teche and enforme it, and lede it into euery trowth.

Of thys chyrch therfore must Tyndale lerne those artycles,C or els can not be bounden to byleue them, & to repente hys forma [...] errours to the contrary, but yf he say that hym selfe haue them by specyall reuelacyon of god, pryuately shewed vnto hym selfe. And then yf he saye so, he muste eyther byleue them alone / or elles yf he wyll be byleued in them / & haue other men byleue them with hym / then muste he proue vs them by scrypture or myracle. And syth I dare answere for hym, that in suche artycles he lacketh those two / there is no remedy for hym but he must nedes confesse that he is taughte the suerty of those artycles, and lerneth whyche they be, onely by the chyrche of Chryste.

Then aske we Tyndale forther, whyche is that chyrche of Chryste, by whyche he is taught to know those necessary [Page lxxxix] A artycles from all other / the bylyefe wherof is not necessary to saluacyon. He can not saye that he lerned it of any vn­knowen chyrche, for no suche company can he knowe for the chyrche / but he muste nedes confesse that he lerneth to knowe those artycles by the knowen chyrche. And then by whych knowen chyrche? let hym name any whych he wyll, excepte the knowen catholyke chyrch whyche hym selfe im­pugneth / and he shall name a company of no credence in that poynt. For by hys owne agremente they muste lacke scrypture for those artycles (for of such artycles we speke) and they haue no myracles. wherfore fynally when he hath all done / thys artycle alone of the perpetuall vyrginyte of our lady (the cōtrary errour wherof after ye trouth taught, hym selfe confesseth to be dampnable) dreueth hym of very B fyne force, to confesse that the chyrch by whych he knoweth the vndowted treuth of thys artycle, syth he knoweth it not by playne and euydēt scrypture, is not his owne secrete vnknowen chyrche of elec [...]es, whych as ye se hym selfe can not yet well descrybe vs, udr any knowen chyrche of here­tykes / but the very comen knowen catholike chyrch, which hym selfe goth all thys whyle aboute to impugne and de­stroye. In whyche onely chyrche Chryste hath promysed to dwell and abyde, to teche it euery necessary treuth vnto the ende of the worlde / & vnto the onely fayth of which chyrch, he hath promysed and g [...]uen the gyfte of wurkyng myra­cles. whyche myracles [...]yth we clerely se perseuer and con­tynue in thys chyrche onely / we maye clerely therby se, that thys chyrche onely is that chyrche also, to whyche onely the C tother promyse of the holy gostes perpetuall resydence and inspyracyon was made.

To thys poynte is Tyndale now good chrysten r [...]der dreuen of necessyte / but yf he wyll saye that thys hole mul­tytude of y knowen catholyke chyrch, is not the very chyr­che, but onely the good men & electes y be within the same.

Now yf he wene to escape out so / he shall be soone set in. For then at the leste wyse he knowledgeth, that there are no good men out of thys chyrch / nor no man hath any trew sure fayth but it be lerned of thys chyrche, or of some mem­bres of the same. And then syth hym selfe and hys felowes be out of thys chyrche / both wylfully fyrst departed out, & after worthly cast out: them selfe be none of them of whom the trouth can be lerned. Also to say yt he therin byleueth [Page xc] onely the good men of the knowē chyrche / that thyng hath A hym self made impossyble to serue hym / for they be by hym the onely electes, whych may by hys own doctryne though they can do no dedely synne, do horryble dedes yet, and so seme very nought. And in thys comon knowen chyrch, the comon knowen fayth or bylyefe is all one, bothe wyth the good and the badde, though the lyuynge be dyuerse. If Tyndale dare denye that / lette hym loke in the workes of saynt Austayne, saynt Hierom, saynt Cypryane, saynt Am­brose, saynt Basyle, saynt Gregorye, saynt Chrysostome, & all the other olde holy doctours and sayntes, of euery tyme thys fyftene hundred yere / and he shall not for very shame saye nay, but that agaynste Luther & hym those holy sayn­tes had the same fayth that ye comon catholyke lay people haue yet vnto thys daye / as for ensample, that it is an hor­ryble B abomynacyon, that any monke or frere sholde wedde a nonne. wherin yf Tyndale dare say that I lye / let Tyn­dale as I haue often sayd, brynge forth of all the olde holy sayntes, some one that sayde the contrary / whyche I am very sure he can not. So that fynally, Tyndale is comen agayn to the same poynt, that he must in fayth and bylyefe of such artycles, byleue the comon consent of the hole chyr­che / and not take hys doctryne of any one man or any few, that wolde in fayth vary, swarue, and fall from the comon fayth of the hole catholyke chyrche / not though there fell awaye parcell mele, so many that they lefte the chyrche for the fewer parte.

For god shall for the knowledge of hys trewe chyrche euer more amonge many other thynges, specyally prouyde C twayne. One, that they whyche departe out therof shall neuer agre to gether in one bylyefe. Another, that y lyghte of myracles shall neuer shyne amonge any of theyr chyr­ches, but onely in hys olde trewe catholyke chyrche remay­nynge. And therin shall they styll contynue, wythout any wonders wroughte in any of the false coūterfeted chyrches of heretykes, vntyll that Antychryste shall come hym selfe / whyche as helpe me god I very greately fere is now very nere at hande. But when he is ones comen / our lorde be thanked he shall not very longe endure, ere Chryste shall hym selfe wyth the blaste of hys blessed mouth, blowe that prowde beste to noughte.

[Page xci] A Now good Chrysten reder, syth it is proued playnely vpon Tyndals owne handelynge of thys artycle of our ladyes perpetuall virgynite, that Tyndale coude not haue lerned y trouth of that artycle of any man, but yf he lerned it by credence gyuen to the comon knowen chyrche, whych he wyll not knowe for the very chyrche, but impugneth it / and syth hym selfe graūteth also, that the contrary erroure of that artycle is dampnable after the trouth taughte, for as mych as hys owne elected persons that so haue erred before, can not be after saued but by repētaūce of that errour: he muste nedes confesse also, that of all other lyke artycles whyche come in questyon, & are not in the scrypture eyther spoken of at all, or not playn & euydentely proued / the sure trouth and certeyntye can not be had by no man, but it be B fyrste comenly lerned of the same chyrche, by credence gyuē therunto, for the truste of Chrystes promyse made therto, that hym selfe and hys holy spyryte wolde for euer be resy­dent therin,Matth. 2 [...]. and teche it euery necessary trouthe / that is to wytte euery trouth,Iohā. 1 [...]. to the bylyefe wherof he wolde haue hys people bounden.

Now foloweth it forther good chrystē reder vpon this, that Tyndale is in thys mater so caught in a nette of hys owne makyng / yt he must eyther lye tomblyng styll therin lyke a fole, and the more he stryueth therwyth the more all waye meshe and entangle hym self faster and faster therin / or wysely gyue vp hys heresyes and renounce hys formar errours / and from hensforth vtterly knowlege & confesse, that agaynste hys hole purpose he is vpon hys owne wor­des C clerely conuynced & concluded, not onely that the very chyrche is the comon knowen chyrche whyche hytherto he hath denyed and styffely stryueth agaynst, but also that in the sacramentes, vowes, fayth, and good wurkes, and fy­nally euery thynge wherin the catholyke knowen chy [...]che and hym selfe haue bene at varyaunce / he muste lerne the trouth of the same chyrche,L [...]cae. 10. and therin byleue that chyrche, & gyue credence therunto. whyche yf he do not endeuour hym selfe to do, but resyste theyr doctryne / god whych hath commaunded hym to byleue and obay the chyrch, shall ne­uer worke wyth hym towarde the bylyefe.

And thus good chrysten reders for the fynall conclusyō of thys chapyter / here ye maye playnely se, that I myghte well yf I wolde wyth thys same chapyter make an ende of [Page xcii] all the hole mater. For ye well remēber that all our mater A in this boke, is bytwene Tyndale and me no thynge ellys in effecte but to fynde out whyche chyrche is the very chyr­che. For syth he seeth hym selfe playnely bounden to gyue credence to that chyrche whych so euer be it / he therfore in all hys boke bryngeth it in to darkenes, & laboreth to make it vnknowē / bycause he wold not by the knowlege therof, haue hys heresyes knowen and reproued.

And now ye se that as our lady wolde, by hys folysshe handelynge of the artycle of her perpetuall vyrgynyte, he is quyte ouerthrowen / and hath it playnely proued vnto hym vpon hys owne wordes, that the very chyrche is none other, but thys that he denyeth / that is to wytte the comon knowen catholyke people, clergy, lay folke, and all / whych what so euer theyr lyuynge be (amonge whom vndowtedly B there ar [...] of bothe sortes many ryght good and vertuouse) do stande to gether and agre in the confessyon of one trew catholyke fayth, wyth all olde holy doctours and sayntes, and good chrysten people bysyde that are all redy passed thys fyftene hundred yere byfore, agaynste Arrius, Otho, Lambert, Luther, and wyclyffe, zuinglius, Huten, Hu [...]se, and Tyndale, & all the rable of such erronious heretykes.

And therfore as I say, sauynge that I wyll go ferther to shew you som what of hys ferther foly / ellys myghte I well euyn here bothe ende thys present chapyter, and also thys hole worke / wherin with a few of hys owne wyse wordes, Tyndale hath confounded hym selfe, and stroyed all hys hole mater.

For as towchyng hys accustumable raylynge in y ende C of hys chapyter, wyth whyche he wolde seme to touche the catholyke chyrche / it is all so clene agaynste hym selfe, and so clerely describeth and depeynteth hym selfe and his own felowes, that yf we wolde laboure sore to fynde oute what euyll we myght say by thē we coulde fynde no better thyng to put vs in remembraūce of euery poynt of theyr mysche­uouse maters, than Tyndals owne wordes that he wry­teth here hym selfe. Lo thus he sayth.

Tyndale.

But they whyche malicyously mayntayne opynyons agaynste the scrypture, Here shold he say as for ensample they that mayntayne that frerys maye wedde nonnes.

or that that can not be proued byscrypture, One of these thynges is [Page xciii] A as ye haue herd, y perpetuall vyrginite of our lady, which hym selfe hath cōfessed in this same chapyter, that the trew membres of his electe chyrch, must nedes byleue after that they be ones taught it. And then yf them selfe be bounden to byleue it, they be bounden to stande therby & mayntayne it. And so speketh Tyndale clere agaynst hym selfe.

or suche as maketh no mater vnto the scripture, He meneth such thyn­ges as were not of necessyte requysyte to be wrytē in scrypture / and therfore he wryteth lyke hym selfe. For there is not one article of the fayth y of necessyte neded to be wrytē, but that god coulde both haue taught them & kepte them without wrytyng. As he hath taughte & kepte some / as for ensample y ꝑpetuall virginite of our lady, which Tyndale hath both denyed, & confessed, & denyed agayne, & woteth B neuer where to hold him / y deuyl so troubleth his braynes. and to saluacyon that is in Chryste, whyther they be trew or no / The chyr­che hath none suche as make no mater to saluacyon. For euery thyng that god wyll haue byleued pertayneth to saluacyon / syth the contrary bylyefe is dysobedyence to god that so taughte it hys chyrch, bycause he wolde haue it by­leued. And y the perpetuall virginite of our lady is of such sorte, Tyndale hath hym selfe openly & playnely agreed / & yet wold he now secretely stele backe agayn. Not wyttyng­ly peraduenture, but yt the deuyl pulleth hym backe by his cote skyrte vnware.

and for the blynd zele of them make sectes, brekyng the vnyte of Chrystes chyrche, for whose sake they oughte to suffer all thynges / and rese agaynste theyr neyghbours (whom they [...]ught to loue as them selues) to sle them: suche men I C saye are fallen from Chryst and make an idole of theyr opinions. For except they put truste in suche opinions and thought them necessary vnto saluacyon, or wyth a cancred conscience went about to disceyue for some fylthy purpose / th [...]y wolde neuer breke the vnyte of fayth or ye sle theyr bretherne. Now good reder, cōsyder who make sectes, y is to saye sondry partes & dyuisiōs, & breketh the vnite of Christes chyrch, whyther the catholyke chyrch yt was agreed all of our mynde, byle­uyng purgatory, & the equall godhed of Chryste wyth hys father and the holy goste, and the blessed body and blode of Chryst in the sacramēt of the aulter, & all the other holy sa­cramentes, & the perpetuall virginite of our lady, & prayed vnto her and other holy sayntes, & dyd reuerence to theyr relykes, images, & kept holy dayes and fastyng dayes, and byleued all very faste & fermely yt is was abomynable sacrylege [Page xciiii] for a frere to wedde a nonne. In all these thynges and A many other good thynges mo, were all good chrystē peple agreed in one by the spyryte of god without any varyaūce / as appereth playnely bothe by the olde cōtynued bokes of s [...]ruyce vsed in the chyrches thorow chrystendom, & by the bokes of y old holy doctours & saintes ī euery age of tyme / sauyng onely when such heretykes as Arrius, wycliffe, Luther, Lambert, Huyskyn, Husse, & Tyndale, and such other lyke, here & there, some in one tyme, some in another, and the very wurst in our tyme, haue ben by y deuyll styred vp, to stroye y trew fayth & vary frō the catholyke corps of christendom, & make new fond sectes of theyr owne folysh braynes. And where he speketh of kyllyng and sleyng theyr bretherne / hym selfe can tell well inough y good chrysten prynces & other vertuouse people, dyd in ye begynnynge gretely B forbere such heretykes / tyll y they were fynally fayne in a­uoydyng of theyr sedicyous trouble, & for the repressyng of theyr inemendable malice,1. Timoth. 1. to folow thensample of saynte Poule / and as he betoke some of them to the deuyll, to the punysshement of theyr bodyes in helpe of theyr soules or ceacynge of theyr synfull blasphemy: so by tēporall lawes & bodyly punyshemēt, to fynysh ye infynyte malyce & intole­rable trouble of those heretykes, for the sauegarde of good people in peace & trāquyllite. which comon peace & quyete yf the heretykes had not perturbed / they had ben them self mych more esely handeled. But as Tyndale knoweth that this is trew / so knoweth he well agayn that the heretykes haue ben those, y dyd in chrystendom begyn to fyght, kyll, and sle, before y thē selfe were kylled & slayne, or any thyng C foughten withall / and yt they began to be kylled & foughtē withall, by theyr owne importune malice, wherby y catholyke people were constrayned and cōpelled to kyll them in the necessary defence of innocentes. And y this is trew / Tindale knoweth very well, both by the storyes as well of England as of other places, and also by ye experyēce of his own dayes in Almayn, thorow the cruell insurreccyō there of his owne felowes the heretykes of his own secte. which rose there, and robbed, burned, and killed, not one noughty knaue or two in a towne as good kynges and prynces do these horryble and incorigible heretykes, and yet somtyme s [...]ant ones in tenne yere, & in some good towne not onys in tenne score yere / but hole goodly monasteries they burned [Page xcv] A vp and destroyed / and some where all the chyrches almost thorow the hole contrey, robbed, spoyled, and bare awaye all that euer they fonde / dyspyghted the sayntes images, relykes, the crucyfyx & the blessed sacramēt, robbed mayhe­med, and murthered many good vertuouse people. And by goddes good sufferaunce, they ceaced not at the clergye / b [...]t fely [...]g frute, went ferther & fell to theyr lordes landes. So that they that wynked and cared not for goddes part, were fayne to wake within a whyle & care for theyr owne part. And then they fell vpō the heretykes agayn, & kylled of thē aboue .iii. score thousand in dyuers places all in one somer. Synnes which tyme in Swycherlande euyn thys laste yere zuinglius set his heretykes in a rage agayne, to pyll & spoyle the trew catholykes of his owne countre. But B god gaue the victory to his faythfull folke, that were full loth to fyghte wyth them, sauyng y very force draue them to the felde, where they bare ouer theyr enmyes. And zuin­glius hym selfe tharcheretyke of all / was there dedely woū ded & taken, & after y burned vp. Such fayre fortune had Tindals master there, of whō he toke his heresies agaynst the blessed sacramēt. And therfore, where Tyndale speketh of kyllynge of heretykes whom he calleth his crysten bre­therne / he knoweth it well hym selfe yt his owne vnhappy felowes the heretykes I say them self, began fyrst y guyse. And as they begā it euē so they kepe it styl. And surely there is no dowte but that Tyndale hym selfe hath longed long, & yet euer loketh for, yt as the Lutheranys & zuinglianys haue begon to ryse & ruffle in rebellyon in sondry partes of C Almayne / so he myght se his disciples assay some fete here. But I trust ī goddes grace & in the kinges goodnes, theyr hartes shall all faynt ere they come therto. And yf ye deuyll were so stronge with thē as to styre them vp / I wold wyshe Tindale among them & frere Barns to. For I lytell dowte yf they dyd, but both captayns & cōpany (as zuinglius and his bushment came shortely to myschyefe) yf god syt where he sat, sholde haue lyke lucke.

Now is this a playn cōclusyō, that bothe they that trust in theyr owne workes, Lo what a parell here were, yf a frere sholde put any truste in chastyte & kepynge of his vow. But & yf he trust in lechery with weddyng of a nonne, then is he saufe inough / by­cause that wurke is not hys owne wurke but the wurke of the deuyll, and of the synne that breketh out of his mēbres. [Page xcvi] And they also that put truste in theyr owne opinyons / be falle [...] from Chryste,A and erre from the waye of fayth that is in Chrystes blode / and therfore are none of Chrystes chyrche, bycause they be not buylt vppon the rocke of fayth. Thys doth hym selfe and hys felowes that are heretykes. For the artycles that the hole catholyke chyrche put trust [...] in, be not the opynyon of any man but the sure doctryne of god. wherof the certayntye of the truth depēdeth vpon the promyse of our sauyour hym selfe, whyche hath promysed that they holy goste shall teche hys chyrche all trouth and lede it there vnto. And therfore yf it be trew as in dede it is, that the whych truste in theyr owne wurkes, and make idols of theyr owne opynyons, and breke the vnyon of the chyrche, and make sondry sectes, and kyll theyr chrysten bretherne, be fallen from Chryst & from the waye of fayth that is in Christes blode / and therfore are none of Christes B chyrche, bycause they be not buylt vpon the rocke of fayth: then must it nedes folow, that Luther, Lambert, zuinglius Huskyn, and Tyndale, and all other of theyr sondry sec­tes, be fallen from Chryste and are from the waye of fayth that is in Chrystes blode / and therfore are none of Christes chyrche, bycause they put trust in theyr owne vayne inuen­cyons, and make idols of theyr owne fals opynyons. For whyche they breke the peace and vnyte bothe of the chyrch and of the fayth, by makynge of sectes and sownyg sedy­cyon and dyssensyon to styrre vp rebellyon and insurrecciō agaynste theyr neyghbours and theyr gouernours, and therby cause the robbery, pyllage, spoyle, and murder of theyr good catholyke Chrysten bretherne. And do put also theyr truste in theyr owne workes, not in fastyng, prayeng,C almoyse, or any good wurke / but in destruccyon of mona­steryes, castynge oute of relygyon, expulsyon of chastyte, wyth weddynge of nonnes and lyuyng in lechery, propha­nyng of chyrches, pollutyng of aulters, blasphemynge of sayntes, rasshyng downe theyr images, castynge out theyr relykes, dyspyghtynge our lady, de [...]ylynge the crucyfyxe, and fynally mockynge and mowynge at the blessed sacra­ment. And thus abusynge them selfe, they declare lo very clerely that they be not buylte vpon the rocke of fayth / but wyth the breth of dampned spyrytes be blowen downe to the deuyll. I praye god amende them, and set them on that rocke agayn. And here an ende of this chapyter / in which ye se lo to what pleasaūt passe fyrst his ryall ridles of synne [Page xcvii] A and not synne, erre and not erre / & after hys ryall raylynge of makynge sectes [...] brekynge of vnite, kyllynge of chrys [...]en bretherne, trustyng in theyr wurkes, is by the perceyuyng of his owne wordes fynally brought [...]nto / and euery mys­chyefe that he layth agaynst the knowen catholyke chyrch, eche after other fall in his owne necke / wher [...] that fagotte lyeth so surely bounden on hys sholder [...] that as longe as he lyueth wyth all the shyftes he can fynde, he shall neuer well shake it of.

Faythe is euer a [...]a [...]ted and fought withall.

Tyndale.

B MOreouer this fayth whyche we haue in Chryst [...], is [...]er fought agaynste, euer assayled and bete [...] at with desperacyon / not when we synne onely, but also in all temptacyo [...]s of aduersyte, in to whiche god [...]yngeth vs, to now [...]t [...]e vs and to shewe vs our [...] hartes, the ypocrysye and fals thoughtes that here lyehydd [...] / our almost no fayte at all and as lytell loue, euyn thē ha [...]pely when we thowght our selues moste perfecte of all. For when temptacyons come, we can not stande. When we haue synned, fayth is feble. When wronge is done vs, we can not forgyue. In sykenesse, in losse of goodes, and in all tribulacyons we be impacyent. When our neyghbour nedeth our helpe that we muste departe with hym of ours, then loue is colde. And thus we lerne and fele that there is no goodnesse nor yet power to do good, but of god onely. And in all such tem­tacyons C our fayth preyshed not vtterly, neyther our loue and consente vnto the l [...]w [...] of god / but they be weak [...], lykke, and wounded, and not clene dede.

More.

THys chapyter hath Tyndale put in for no great effecte, but onely with a comely florysshe, to set out and furnysshe hys heresyes of the chapyter next before. wher­in he techeth that in the trewe membres of hys electe chyrch, the fayth doth neuer fayle but euer contynueth, and that therfore they do neuer synne dedely, how horryble dedes so euer they do as he confesseth that they do many / & yet synne neuer dedely, bycause they do them not of malice nor of purpose, but of fraylte onely & of wekenes, [Page xcviii] thorough the frute of the synne that remayneth in theyr A flesshe, & breketh out of theyr sely weke and frayle mēbres.

Now for the fe [...]ther ga [...]nysshy [...]ge of thys hys horryble heresye, hath he brought in this chapyter / in whych he ney­ther proueth any thynge therof, nor any thyng go [...]h ab [...]u [...] to proue / but onely falleth to prechyng, and telleth vs f [...]ll holyly that y fayth is euer fought [...]n agaynst, as though no man had euer herde that before. where as euery chyld well woteth, that the faith is alway assawted & fought agaynst, whyther he speke of hys owne false fayth and heresyes, or of the trew catholyke [...]yth of Chryst. For lyke as the trew catholyke fayth is & euer hath ben oppungned and assaw­ted, by the deuyll and all hys dyscyples suche heretykes as Tyndale is, from the begynnyng vnto thys present tyme: so hath euer hys false fayth and heresyes ben impugned,B assayled, and condempned, by god and all hys prophetes, by Chryste and all hys apostles, and all hys holy doctours and sayntes, and by all the hole corps of chrystēdome from the begynnynge hytherto. And thys conflycte and batayle shall neuer ceace, tyll Chryste shall fynally refourme the worlde and fynysshe it, and delyuer the kyngdome to the father.1. Corinth. 15.

And as for euery mannes fayth pryuately / who know­eth not though Tyndale tell vs not, that the deuyll dayly laboreth to quenche it, as he laboreth to destroye hope and cheryte and all other vertues.

Nor thys we nede not to lerne of Tyndale / neyther that men by temptacyons lerne to fynde and fele, that there is no goodnesse ne yet power to do good, but of god onely / yf C Tyndale mene that as the trouth is, that all goodnesse co­meth of god, & that man hath none nor none coulde haue, neyther man nor angell but by god [...]e [...] gyfte / nor coulde haue yet any power to do good, yf god wolde wythdrawe hys grace. How be it yf he mene in thys place as he sayth wyth hys mayster Marten in many places, that m [...]n hath no power by ye fredome of his wyll to do any good, in wur­kynge hym selfe wyth goddes grace, and in resystynge of temptacyon to, and wurkynge wyth god in the ke [...]ynge of hym selfe from synne / but muste nedes in all suche thynges syt styll hym selfe [...]stonyed & amased in a rechele [...]se s [...]outh, and let god wurke alone: then saye I that Tyndals holy sermon is very dampnable heresye.

[Page xcix] A Now where that in all the synnys that he reherseth, he sayth that our fayth peryssheth not vtterly, nor our loue & consent vnto the lawe of god / but that they be weke, syke, and wounded, and not clene dede: I say that his tale is to lytell purpose. For yf by fayth he mene the belyefe / then is it not of nece [...]syte loste at all in no dedely synne excepte he­resye. For the ryght bylyefe and other dedely synnes maye stand to gyther well inough. For a man may byleue trewly and do falsely, byleue ryght and lyue wronge, byleue well and be nought.

And yet maye he be an electe person and fall from the trewe fayth, that is to saye the trew bylyefe, and lese it vt­terly byleuynge lyes and heresyes / and fall from grace for the tyme, and yet after that wyth helpe of gra [...]e fynde the B fayth and fall therto agayne, and fynally dye therin.

And yf Tyndale here by the name of fayth, vnderstande hope and truste in god, as he iugleth cōtynually with that worde / for suche equyuocacyons and dyuers vnderstan­dynges of one worde, serue hym for hys goblettes, hys gallys, and his iuglynge stycke in all the proper poyntes of hys hole conuayaunce and hys lygier de mayne / but as I sayde, yf by fayth he meane hope: I graunte that it dyeth not alwaye wyth the synne, nor gothe not therwyth away. But it waxeth by Tyndals doctryne oftētymes ouer grete. For by the dredeles truste of theyr techyng, the man falleth into boldenesse of synne. In whiche when he hath ferelesse longe contynued / he waxeth forcelesse and carelesse, and setteth not by synne, tyll sodeynly the deuyll out of hys hyghe C harte & hawte corage stryketh hym into cowardouse drede and vtter desperacyō. For ye outragyouse encrease of theyr hope, is no very ryght hope, though it be a greater hope then it sholde be / no more then the hete of a feuer is a ryght naturall hete, though the body be more hote then it was in helth. And therfore in suche affeccyons the soule somtyme falleth from one contrary qualyte in to a nother / as ye body in an agew chaūgeth from colde to hete, and frō hete some tyme into colde agayne. Of whiche maner of chaunges of the soule, whom the deuyll dryueth out of one vice into his contrary / may be well veryfyed these wordes of holy scrypture, They shall frō colde water of the snowe, go into farre passynge hete.Iob. 24. And yet I say that with these synnes, a trew member may lese all hope and fall in dyspayre / and after [Page c] by grace come vnto hope agayne.A

Now where he sayth that loue and co [...]sen [...] to the lawe of god, is not lost by a trewe member of the electe chyrche: I wote not whyther Tyndals loue remayne or no / but I am sure that by synne chrysten cheryte goth away. For neyther cheryte nor grace can stande to gether wyth synne. For as saynt Poule sayth,2. Corinth. 6. what felysshyp can there be bytwene lyght and darkenes, bytwene Chryst and Beliall.

I saye also that all hys gaye goodly tale that he telleth vs here, of hys electe membres wyth theyr holy felynge fayth / to whom he wold approper some specyall pryuylege of kepynge styll fayth, hope, & cheryte, wyth all theyr heuy hepe of horryble deuelysshe dedes / I saye that as farforth as in hys wordes is any treuth, hys pryuylege is not pro­per to the membres of hys electe chyrche, but comon to the B very fynall electes, & to the fynall reprobatys to. For bothe the tone and the tother may synne and repente, and amend and synne agayne, and amende agayn of [...]er then Tyndale hath fyngers on hys handes and toos on hys feete to. But he that fynally repenteth hys synnys in a ryght fasshyon, is an electe foresene to god from the begynnynge. And he that finally dyeth impenytēt, as dyuers wedded freres dye in theyr lechery / or he that after Tyndals doctryne repen­teth without care of shryft, & dyeth in a fals heresie agaynst hys holy howsell: such folkes be fynally reprobates, fore knowen vnto god before the worlde was wrought, yt they wolde fynally for impenytence fall vtterly to nought.

And the other part of hys tale, whyche can not be very­fyed in the reprobatys, that is to wytte the kepynge of che­ryte C styll in the doynge of horryble dedes, can not be very­fyed in the electes neyther. And so is his tale on euery syde folysshe, false, and nought. For the semely settynge forthe wherof to make it appere fayre and lykely / bycause he can neyther bryng reason, scripture, nor other good authoryte: ye shall now se what ensample he bryngeth forth.

Tyndale.

As a good chyld whom the father and moder h [...]e t [...]ght nurtour a [...]d wise­dome, loueth his father and all his commaundementes / and perceyueth of the goodnes shewed hym that his father loueth hym, and that all his fathers preceptes are vnto his welthe and profy [...]e, and that his father commaūdeth hym nothyng for any nede that his father hath therof, but seketh his profyt onely / and therfore hath a good fayth vnto all his fathers promyses, [...]d loueth all [Page ci] A hys comma [...]d [...]mentes, and dothe them wyth good wyll, and wyth good wyll goeth to scole. And by the waye happely he seeth companye playe / and wyth the syghte is taken [...]d ra [...]shed of hys memory, and forgetteth hym selfe, and stondeth and byholdeth and falleth to play also, forgettynge father and mother, all theyr kyndnes, all theyr lawes, and his owne profyte therto. How be it the knowledge of hys fathers kyndnesse, the fayth of hys pr [...]my­ses, and the lo [...]e that he hath agayn vnto his father and the obedyēt mynde, are not vtterly quenched but lye hydde, as all thynges do when a man sle­peth or lyeth in a traunc [...]. And as soone as he hath played out all hys lustes, or be warned in the meane season / he cometh agayne vnto his olde professyon. Neuer the later many temptacyons go ouer his harte, and the lawe as a ryght hangman tormenteth hys conscye [...]ce, a [...]d gothe nye to persuade hym that his father wyll caste hym awaye and hange hym yf he [...]etche hym, so that he is lyke a greate whyle to r [...]ne awaye, rather then to returne vnto B his father agayne / feare and drede of rebuke, and of los [...]e of his fathers loue, and of punysshement, wras [...]ell wyth the truste whyche he hath in his fathers goodnes, and as it were gyue hys fayth afall / but it ryseth agayne as soone as the rage of the fyrste brunte is past, and his mynde more quyete. And the goodnes of hys father and his olde kyndnes cometh vnto remembraunce, ey­ther of hys owne corage or by the comforte of some other. And he byleueth that hys father wyll not caste hym awaye or destroye hym, and hopeth that he wyll no more do so. And vppon that he getteth hym home dysmayed, but not all to gyther faythlesse. The olde kyndnesse wyll not lette hym dyspayre. How be it all the worlde can not set hys harte at reste vntyll the payne be paste, and vntyll he haue herde the voyce of hys father that all is forgyuen.

More.

C I neyther haue yet euer herde nor neuer loke to here, any very wyse worde in all Tyndales workes. But yet herde I neuer a more peuisshe processe then this his holy prechynge is / nor therewith more pestilently perelouse, while he pretendeth to make this chapiter of faythe, and then iugleth it in to truste and hope / and yet wolde make vs bileue, that neither nother at any tyme faileth any man that ones hath goten them / nor that any man whiche ones hath the faythe y hym selfe describeth, & thereby is ones a true mēbre of his electe church (as euery man is by his do­trine y ones attaineth that faith) can at any tyme after lese it nor fall awaye there from, & for that cause can neuer do dedely synne, though he do neuer so many dānable dedes, [Page cii] or (to call them as hym selfe calleth them) horryble dedes.A For as for dampnable, happely Tyndale wyll saye they be not be they neuer so horryble, bycause the seed of god, that is to wytte theyr felynge fayth, can neuer suffer suche tre [...]e membres of hys electe chyrche, do those horryble dedes wyllyngly or of purpose, but onely for weykenesse and frayltye / for whyche they can be sayth he no dedely synnes in those blessed bodyes, be the dedes neuer so de­uelysshe.

And now to proue vs thys wonderfull straunge para­dox, thys opynyon inopinable, to be very playne, open, euydent, and clere / he furnyssheth it wyth samples so feble and so dymme, that the faynt syghte of our sore eyes can scant attayne to perceyue, how the samples any thynge touche the mater.B

For where he sholde to make vs clerely beholde it, put hys ensemples in greate and horryble dedes, suche as hym selfe before in another chapyter confesseth that hys holy membres do: he forgetteth here now suche horryble dedes as wolde make the reders abhorre the doers of them, and speketh fayre & easely that they be feble somtyme in temp­tacyon, and than they can not stande / and that after they haue synned theyr fayth is faynte, and when they sholde helpe theyr neyghboure theyr loue is colde, and they be not pacyent in trybulacyōs, and when they suffer wronge they can not forgyue lo, and when men take away theyr goodes they be angry, so they be lo.

Lo how angry Tyndale is wyth hys trew membres of his electe chyrche, and how sore he layeth theyr synnes to C theyr charge. And yet bycause we sholde take theyr fautes for myche the sleyghter, he mynyssheth all the mater and maketh it myche the lesse, by resemblynge and lykenynge them to a good lytell chylde, as though theyr fawtes were all but chyldyshnes / and as it were a babe that wepeth and waxeth angry wyth the kyghte, for catchynge awaye hys brede and butter, and wold complayne to hys mother, and byd her go take a rodde and bete the kyght.

But syth that Tyndale now goth aboute to playe the the mayster, and sette all the catholyke chyrche agayne to scole / and wolde haue vs lerne suche harde lessons as we neuer herde of the lyke / as that men maye comenly do myscheuouse [Page ciii] A dedes wythout any dedely synne, bycause they do them not wyllyngly where no body compelleth them: lette hym at the leste wyse syth he wyll make vs all yonge chyl­dren, teche vs our lesson as a good mayster techeth hys yonge chyldren. And let hym not teche vs our lesson in a small ragged hande, wherin a yonge begynner can scante perceyue one letter from an other / but let hym teche vs in a fayre greate letter of some texte hande, that is more easy to lerne vppon. And therfore we shall pray hym to lette passe ouer for thys onys hys longe chyldysshe ensample of hys good chyld, which for all the nurture of hys father and hys mother, and all the wysedome that he lerned of them, and all his loue to them and to theyr cōmaundementes, and all the trust in his fathers promyses, for whyche he goth with B good wyll to scole / fyndynge yet by the waye some compa­nyons that fall to playe, is ra [...]ysshed of his remembraūce / and forgetyng father and mother, and all theyr promyses, & all theyr kyndenes, & all theyr lawes, & all the wisedomes that he lerned of them, and all the nurtur turtur that they taught hym, standeth styll and loketh on them / and after falleth to wurke wyth them at some suche prety playes of lykelyhed as chyldrē be wont to playe, as chyrystone mary bone, bokyll pyt, spurne poynt, cobnutte or quaytyng: let vs leue I say thys good chylde at hys game, tyll he be fette eyther home wyth hys father, or to scole wyth hys mayster wyth thre strypes for hys taryenge and trewauntynge by the waye (whyche is more mete for suche a chylde, then after hys lustes played out, Tyndals tragycall processe of C remembraunce of hys olde professyon, wyth temptacyons ouer hys harte, and the lawe hys ryght hange man, turmē tynge of conscyence, fere of destruccyon and almoste despe­rate drede of hangyng) Now let Tyndale therfore in stede of thys chyld, take for ensample some of the trew members of hys owne electe chyrche, that hath the felynge fayth of hys owne false heresyes / and not a lytell chylde, but a great slouen slouche, that out of hys boyes age is twenty wynter stepte into hys knauys age. Then let Tyndale put in hym for ensample not as he doth here, the beynge angry wyth them that doth hym wronge, or lacke of dew loue to the ly­berall helpe of hys neyghbours nede (wyth whych mynde and softe ensample [...] of infyrmyte [...] feblenesse, imperfec­cyon, and frayltye, Tyndale couereth and kepeth a syde [Page ciiii] the hatefull herynge and beholdynge of theyr abomynable A dedes) but let hym put for ensample that hys trewe mem­ber thys Iak slouch that we speke of, is so frayle and so fe­ble in temptacyons, that thorow the frute of the synne re­maynynge in hys flesshe, and as Tyndale sayth brekynge out at his membres / he falleth into horryble dedes (for that is Tyndals worde) as into aduoutry wyth hys mother, poysenynge hys father, and murderynge hys brother, in sacryledge, and incest as frere Luther doth wyth hys nonne, fall to mockynge of almyghty god as Tyndale doth in the blessed sacrament.

Now syth we haue for ensample taken no lytell prety synnes, but great and horryble dedes / and haue also taken for ensample no lytell prety boy, but an olde greate knaue fytte and mete for the mater, as in whom may well and cō ­uenyently B be veryfyed all Tyndals tragycall termes of tempcyons and turmentry, destruccyon, hangeman, and galowes, & all to gether: let vs in thys abomynable beste now, and in these horryble crymes, as in a great text hand, loke vpō our lesson that mayster Tyndale techeth vs, & se whyther there be wryten therin the thynge that he wolde haue vs lerne / or whyther that (syth we haue now suche a boke wyth so great large letters, as we can spell vpon and do to gether or selfe) it shall peraduenture appere that he went aboute byfore wyth a smale ragged hande, to begyle vs and make vs rede false.

ye remember good reders that he sayth, that hys trewe membres vppon greate occasyons, as vppon the syghte of suche thynges as delyteth them, be rauesshed of theyr me­mory,C and forget them selfe (as hys lytell good chylde doth at the syghte of the playe) and so contynueth styll in the fo­lowynge and fulfyllynge of hys luste, as it were a man in hys slepe or one that laye in a traunce / and neyther is hys fayth loste in all that whyle, nor his loue to the law of god / but though they lye hydde, yet they contynue styll bothe twayne, and hys hope and hys truste in god also. And ther­fore though our Iak slouche do all those horryble dedes y we dyd put for ensample: yet beynge a trewe member of Tyndals electe chyrche, bycause of hys felyng fayth which so lyeth hydde in hys harte that he feleth no thynge therof / he consenteth not in hys mynde to none of those dedes, nor doth none of them wyllyngly nor of purpose, or at the leste [Page cv] A wyse not malycyously (for that worde into hys olde tale putteth Tyndale of newe in hys false exposycyon vppon the fyrste pystle of saynt Iohn̄) and therfore in hym there can none of all those horryble dedes be dampnable or dede­ly synne.

we myghte here lette Iak slouche alone / & aske Tyn­dale whyther a nother slouche of hys acquayntaunce hys owne mayster Marten Luther, not onely a trewe member but also one of the chyefe membres of hys electe chyrche, hath lyen all thys whyle a slepe by the space of so many yeres to gether, syth he fyrst ranne out of hys order in apo­stasye, and after wedded hys nonne, & yet contynueth with her styll. Thys frere and hys nonne, dranke well of lykely­hed ere they went to theyr bryde bedde, yf they lye styll and B slepe yet.

But for as myche as Tyndale wyll not agre, that frere Luthers lechery wyth hys nonne, is any euyll dede at all, but very well done & vertuously: therfore though we nede none other ensample agaynste hys frantyke heresye to the earys of any good chrysten man, yet for Tyndale hym selfe we muste leue Luther lyenge styll a slepe wyth hys lēman, and retourne agayne to Iak slouche / whose dedes Tyn­dale wyll graunte and agre to be horryble, though he deny them to be dampnable bycause of Iakkes felynge fayth / whyche though he fele it not bycause he lyeth a slepe, ke­peth in hym styll yet the loue to goddes lawe, and suffereth hym not to consent vnto the synne, nor to do any suche de­des wyllyngly nor of purpose, or at the leste wyse not C ma­lycyously.

Let euery man here agaynste Tyndals folyshe tale and shamelesse inuencyon, take testymony and wytnesse of hys owne wytte / whyther he that by the deuyls entycement de­fowleth hys mother, poyseneth hys father, and mordereth hys brother, and mocketh almyghty god, and suche other horryble and abomynable dedes oftentymes, doth delybe­rately wyth longe deuyce and studye bystowed about it, do thys gere wyllyngly and consent there vnto / or ellys doth all vnwyllyngly, as he were a slepe or in a traunce. Let Tyndale tell vs what he wyll / he shall I wene fynde no wyse man in thys poynt agre, that these bestes do theyr detestable dedes vnwyllyngly, wythout consent vnto synne.

Now towchynge Tyndals tother goodly refuge, that [Page cvi] the horryble dedes of hys trew membres of hys elect chyr­che A be neuer dedely synnes, bycause they do them neuer of no malyce: thys is be ye sure a very comely deuyce, whych euery wyse man ye wote well muste nedes alowe and com­mende. For in our ensample of Iak slouche / what indyf­ferent iudge wolde not holde the good man excused of all those abomynable dedes, yf it myghte appere to the court, that y defoylyng of hys mother was not for any dyspyght or malyce borne to hys father, but of vnnaturall affeccyon and very bestely luste. And also that the poysenynge of his father, grew not of anger or euyll wyll to hys person, but of loue and longynge for hys substaunce / and suche other excusys lyke, for all hys other detestable crymes, wherupō it myghte appere, y none of them all rose of anger or euyll wyll / but some of pryde, some of couetyce, some of lechery,B or such other rybaldouse appetyt. what coulde hys iudge in suche case saye to hym for very pytye, yf the poore man sayde onys he were sory / but stroke hys hed, and byd hym go home, and be a good sonne, and do so no more. And therfore for as myche as the same Iak slouche dothe none of those detestable dedes of pure malyce to any other body, but of some kynde of affeccyon towarde hym selfe, hys loue is not vtterly quenched / and therfore he is one of Tyndals electes, that synneth neuer how bad so euer he be.

For where as fynally Tyndale techeth vs, that his trew membres of hys electe chyrche do neuer synne dedely, by­cause that after the luskes haue played out all theyr lustes, then they repent agayne and remember them selfe & theyr fathers formar kyndenes, and be sory: thys is a fayre tale C of a tubbe tolde vs of hys electes. For euery man well wo­teth that thus do the fynall reprobates, and be by dew re­pentaunce dyuers tymes in theyr lyues restored agayne to the state of grace. And then by thys tale of Tyndale, were there no dede dāpnable nor dedely synne in any man, were it neuer so abomynable / but onely those last synnes in whi­che he dyed impenitent. And then were all Tyndals hyghe descrypcyons and dyfferences of electes and reprobates all brought to thys poynt at the laste, that theyr dedes be all one, and theyr fasshyons and theyr faythes and theyr louys to the lawe of god a lyke chaungeable thorow the remanaunt of theyr lyues, sauynge that the tone sorte dye re­pentaunt, and the tother sorte impenytent. And thys is the [Page cvii] A same thynge that we saye. And so is Tyndale after all his longe folysh varyaunce, at laste maugry his teth agaynst hys purpose, compelled to saye the same that we haue all waye sayed and he alwaye denyed.

But then saye we one thynge forther, that where as the electes be by hys owne agreement the penytentes onely and the trewe repentauntes: neyther hym selfe whyche re­penteth not his abomynable heresyes, but stuburnly stan­deth by them and sayth he wyll dye in them / nor his may­ster Marten Luther, whyche notwythstandynge that the luske hath often tymes played out his luste, wyll not yet leue his lechery, but lye styll with the nonne, and defende for lawfull matrymony theyr fylthy lyfe that is afore god and all good men a very bestely bychery / shew them selues B clerely to be any of the trewe penytentes / but vtterly to be such, as but yf they repent better ere they dye, shall elles be none of goddes fynall electes, but very wreched reproba­tes accursed out of goddes company, and myserable mem­bres of the deuyls dampned chyrche in hell.

yet sayth Tindale forther in y ende of all thys chapiter, that all be it the olde kyndenesse of the father can not let the good chylde vt­terly dyspayre, for all that he hath played at spurne poynt by the waye in goynge at scolewarde: yet all the world can not set his harte at reste, vntyll the payne be past, and vntyll he haue herde the voyce of his father that all is forgyuen.

These wordes wolde I haue Tyndale apply me well to hys gostely purpose / and turnynge the sample of hys good chylde into some olde shrewe, and the playenge at spurne C poynt into some detestable dede: let Tyndale then tell vs, where, what voyce, and by whom, hys trew member of his elect chyrche shall here that voyce of remyssyon. If he mene any worde spoken in scrypture all redy / then is he soone spedde, and shall not after hys synfull cryme cōmytted, fall at any greate conflycte in hym selfe bytwene hope and dys­payre, hys fayth almoste catchyng a fall for fere, and at last wyth myth worke rysynge agayne. All thys gere is soone done, yf the voyce of hys father grauntynge remyssyon set hys harte at reste, and that voyce be hys worde wryten in scrypture / for then he herde the worde before he dyd ye dede. And that worde beynge suche / yf it were vnderstanden as Tyndale techeth, that forthwyth at the bare repentynge without shryft or penaūce, all were forgyuē, synne, payne, [Page cviii] and all, bothe eternall and temporall, bothe in hell and A purgatory and in this worlde to: that worde were than I say all redy bifore the dede, not a forgyuenes onely of the synne passed, but a lycence almoste also of all horryble dedes to be done. And if he meane to here the voyce of his father afterwarde, not wrytten before / he muste here it by the mouthe of his goostely father vpon his humble shryfte and confessyon, whiche Tyndall calleth the crafte and in­uencion of Sathan.

And this is lo the conclusion of Tyndall in this his chapitre, of his false faithe euer assawted / whiche is as ye se nowe taken here with assawte, pece mele on euery syde wounded, spoyled, and bounden / and quycke of felyng as any blayne or botche, but vtterly dede of grace sent downe vnto the deuyll.B

Tyndale.
The maner and ordre of our election.

EVyn so goth it wyth goddes electes. God choseth them fyrste, and they not god, as thou redest Iohn̄. 15 And then he sendeth forth and calleth theym, and sheweth them hys good wyll which he beareth vnto them, and maketh them se both theyr owne dampnacion in the lawe, and also the mercy that is layed vp for them in Christes blode, and thereto what he will haue them do. And then when we se his mercy, we loue him agayne, and chose hym, and submitte our selues vnto his lawes to walke in them. For when we erre not in wytte, reason, and iudgement of C thinges, we can not erre in wyll and choyse of thinges. The choyse of a mans wyll dothe naturally and of her owne accorde, folowe the iudgement of a mans reason, whether he iudge right or wronge. So that in teachinge, onely resteth the pythe of a mans lyuinge.

More.

THis chapiter dependeth vpon the chapi­ter before, in whiche he compared hys true membres of his electe chyrche vnto his good child, whom his father taught nurter and wysedome, and sent hym to scole, & he lyke a mycher & a trewaunt plaied at bokle pytte by the way / & when the game was done, fell almoste in dispayre of lyfe for fere [Page cix] A of hangyng, yf hys father caughte hym / and yet sone after well and wysely [...]cō [...]orted hym selfe, wyth the remēbraūce of hys fathers olde goodnesse / and so came home agayne lyke a good lytle boy, & herde hys fathers voyce of forgeuen [...]sse / whych sette hys hart at reste / & than he wentte to sup­per meryly / & than the mayed put on hys byggē & brought hym to bedde / and thā he cared for no more, but was mery in the mornyng, and redy to go playe the boy agayne as he dyd before. And now therto Tyndale ioyneth thys chapy­tre / saynge, Euen [...] it w [...]th goddes electe.

yet sith he resembleth goddes electe vnto the lytle boy / he shuld haue put into the sample of his litle chyld, that his lytle chyld sometyme whan he hathe played the lytle yong trewaunt, for all hys r [...]membraunce of hys fathers good­nes, B is for fere of hys fathers angre glad to go to some o­ther frendes of hys fathers, and pray theym to bryng hym home, and helpe to skewse hym and kepe hym frō betynge. And than he shulde haue begon thys chapytre as he dothe now and say, Euen so goth it with goddes ele [...]t. For yf the sample of hys good chyld maye pr [...]ue all the remenaunte for hym / than may it preue thys one pece as well for vs, y the electe after hys offence, seketh vnto sayntes as hys fa­thers fr [...]des, and prayeth them to helpe to entreat for hym / for so do many tymes suche good chyldren ye wote well as Tyndale putteth hys sample by.

But we wyll nat now for thys tyme trouble Tyndale moche wyth that mater. I wolde that in thys chapytre all were well saue y. Forsu [...]ely thys chapytre is very nought / C and hath in hit the secrete seed of Tyndales chyefe poyson, whereby he laboreth after Luther, vnder colour & pretexte of goddes elecciō, to destroye the fre wyll of man, & ascribe all thyng to desteny. whyche thynge is natte in hyt selfe so false / but Tyndale proueth it as folysshely, as ye shall per­ceyue anone.

But fyrst consydre howe darkly the man walketh in his way styll. For yet he handeleth it of that fasshyon, that he wold nat we shuld se, whyther he mene by this [...] word elect, the man that is electe for the tyme, after the maner of any of those eleccyons that I declared you byfore in the begyn­nyng of my fourth boke / or whyther he meane of those ele­ctes [Page cx] yt are of god byfore the begynnyng of the worlde for­sene,A to be suche as by hys gyfte and grace and good wyll wurkyng therwyth, in folke of age and wytt therto, shulde and wolde dye in the state of grace and be saued, and there­fore be called some tyme small electes, sometyme eternall.

Thus whyche kynd of electes hym self [...] meneth, Tyn­dale leueth vndeclared / & wyll we shall gesse at hys mynde vppon hys vncertayne wordes, to the ende that he myghte euer haue some refuge into a startyng hole / and whanne he were playnely cōfuted and reproued, crye out vpon me thā and say that I mysse take hym.

But I am content to take hym therfore, that waye that may [...] be the strengest for hym selfe / and that way that hys wordes gathered oute of dyuers of his chapitres, some by­fore and some here after, shewe moste lykely that he shulde B mene, whan they be consydered to gyther. And that is as me semeth, that he meneth of those electes that are called ye fynall and eternall electes / all be it that the place of scryp­ture in y .xv. chapytre of saynt Iohn̄ whych Tyndale alledgeth here for hys electes, lytle ma [...]eth for hys purpose concernynge that fynall or eternall eleccyō / nat onely bycause the wordes of Chryste spokē there to hys apostles, can nat conuenyently serue for those whyth [...]wa [...] from the trew doctryne of Chrystes catholyque chyrche that the apostles taught, into false heresyes / but also for that our sauyour in those wordes when he sayed vnto them, you haue nat cho­sen me but I haue chosen you, and apoynted you that you shall go forth and bryng frute, and your frute shall abyde / he spake there not of there small eleccion to saluaciō / which C eleccion hym selfe foresawe in hys godhed byfore y world was made, and whyche eleccyon therefore is called eter­nall. But he spake there of that eleccyon onely, by whiche he chose and elected thē to be hys apostles and messengers, to be sent about the worlde to prech hys gospel / as playnly appereth by those aforesayd wordes, I haue chosen you, & appoynted you to go and bryng in fruyt / and fynally is the same eleccyon, wherof he spake whan he sayd,Iohā. 6 Haue I nat elected and chosen you twelue, & lo one of you is a deuyll. And therfore as I say, the man layeth the scrypture very farre from hys mater.

But now takyng him as he wold say if his wyt wold serue [Page cxi] A him, yt is to wyt that by his worde electes, he meneth the fynall and eternall electes: lette vs se and consider what high doctrine and before vnherde, maister Tindall techeth vs of them.

He sayeth that after that god hathe chosen them (and telleth nat whan / whither after their commynge into the worlde, or before the worlde were made / so that he leaueth it by those wordes yet in doubte which eleccion he moueth, whether vnto saluacion in the churche tryumphaunte in heuen, or onely in to the churche here milytaunte in erthe) god he sayeth sendeth forthe and calleth vpon them, and sheweth them his good wyll whiche he bereth vnto them.

Nowe here falleth Tyndall in two fautes. One is that these wordes of hys can nat be verifyed vpon all electes, B syth many dye in theyr cradelles, and many in theyr cryso­somes / but yf he teken all those for none electes, bycause they can vnderstande no prechynge. A nother faute is, y y thyng whiche he semeth here to approper vnto the elec­tes, be commune bothe to the electes and reprobates. For all this god dothe to them to, that are nat his electes, but vnto suche also as wyll be & therfore shalbe, fynall repro­bates. For god of his goodnes wyllinge as the scripture sayth all men to be saued / sent his sonne in to this worlde, to call vpon the whole worlde. And he sent his apostelles aboute the worlde as a lorde and god indifferent, without accepcyon of persones as sayd saynt Peter.

But than gothe Tyndall farther and sayth, that god ma­keth his electes see bothe theyr owne dampnacion in the lawe, and also the mer­cye C that is layde vp for them in Christes bloode, and therto what he wyll haue them do.

These wordes men wolde wene were but well & plainly ment. For they may seme to good playne meanynge men, to be well & plainly spoken, and as well and plainly ment. But yet as ye shall shortely see in these wordes, that god maketh his electes se his mercy / as playne wordes as they be, and as innocent and as simple as they seme, yet in them meneth Tyndale couertly to come forthe with his poyson of false prechynge the predestinacyon of god, with destru­cion of the fre wyll of man concernynge any maner of de­uoure of them selfe towarde the [...]eleue and faythe. For he [...]neth here, that god alway maketh the electes to se these thynges, without any wyll of theyr owne any thynge wor­kynge [Page cxii] with god towarde the syght thereof / and that all the A reprobates that shalbe dampned for lacke of the beleue, be reprobated and reiected and lefte vnchosen, and kept from the syght and perceyuynge of the thynges to be beleued, without any demeryte or euyll deserte of theyr owne, onely bicause god lyste nat to make them see.

And that Tyndale thus falsely meneth by those fayre playne wordes / ye shall farther perceyue by other wordes of Tyndals owne wrytynge, afterwarde in his answere to to the fyrste chapyter of the thyrde boke of my dyaloge. For where as I there shewed, that the very bokes of the scripture if selfe, can nat make men beleue yt scripture, nor very surely knowe whyche were the very true scripture of god, and whiche were scriptures countr [...]fete, sauyng that the catholyke churche techeth vs to knowe the scrypture / B and the spirite of god, with mannes owne towardes and good endeuoure, worketh in man the credulite and belefe by whiche we bothe beleue the churche in techyng vs whi­che is the scripture, & also by whiche we beleue the thinges that are wrytten in the scrypture: to this bycause I sayde there, that whan we here the scrypture or rede it, if we be nat rebellious but ende [...]our our selfe to beleue, & captyue and subdue our vnderstandyng to serue and folowe fayth, prayenge for goddes gracious ayde and helpe, god than worketh with vs, and inwardely dothe inclyne our harte in to the assent of the thynge that we rede / and after a lytell sparke of our faythe o [...]es had, increaseth the credence in our incredilyte: Tyndale to this in mo [...]kage of mennes endeuour towarde the belefe, and in scornynge that we C wolde captyue our vnderstandyng into ye seruyce of fayth, answereth me with an [...] as exclamacion / and cryenge out vpon my fleshe [...]es and foly, [...]o [...]eth out his hyghe spirituall sentence in this [...] o [...].

Tyndale.

O ho [...]e betlebly [...]de is flesshely reason. The wyll hath none operacion at all [...] the workynge of faythe in my soule, no more [...] the chylde hathe in the begettynge of his fathe [...]. [...] (sayeth Paule) it is the gyfte of god and nat of vs. My [...] s [...]ewe [...]e [...] or an appatent cause why, yer my wyll haue any workynge at all [...]

More.

Nowe perceyue you good christen reders, what an vn­christen mynde this euyll christen man hathe in those wor­des, [Page cxiii] A that seme so fayre and playne in this present chapyter. For thoughe he speke nat out so plainly in this chapyter, as he dothe after in his answere to my thyrde boke as ye haue here herde: yet that he falsely meneth in eyther place alyke, ye may yet more plainly perceyue by hys wordes y in this chapiter immedyatly folow / which are such sa may be as well ioyned to his foresayde wordes of his answere vnto my thyrde boke, as to the wordes vnto whiche they be knytte in this present chapyter. In whiche whan he hathe sayed that god maketh his electes se theyr dampna­tion in y lawe, and also the mercy that is layed vp for them in Christes bloode, and therto what he wyll haue them do / it foloweth than forthwith,

Tyndale.

B And then when we se his mercy, we loue hym agayne, and chose hym, and submytte our selues vnto his lawes to walke in them. For when we erre not in wytte, reason, and iudgement / we can not erre in wyll and choyse of thyn­ges. The choyse of mannes wyll doth naturally and of her owne accorde, fo­low the iugement of a mannes reason, whyther he iudge ryghte or wronge, so that in techyng onely resteth the pyth of a mannes lyuynge.

More.

Now trust I good reders, that it is inoughe that we perceyue and se, what Tyndale entendeth in thys chapitre of the ordre of our eleccyō / and that for all hys great excla­macyon, we be nat yet so betle blynd, but that we spye well inough whyche way this wyly serpēt walketh / and that he goth about vnder colour of the prayse and commendacyon of goddes predestinacion [...] and ordynaunce vtterly concer­nyng C fayth, to put a way the wurke of mānes fre wyll / and yet ouer that though [...]om what more couertely, of trouthe concernyng all other good workes to.

And all be it that he seme here to gyue mannes wyll in maner lyke place, in the acte of our loue toward god, as he gyueth god in the worke of our belyefe and fayth in vs: yet whan he is well perceyued, he bryngeth all to suche in­euytable necessyte, that both in the tone and the tother, and in all maner of good workes, he taketh vtterly away all manes of meryt from the good men and electes / & gyueth vnto the euyll peple and reprobatys an excuse for thē selfe, and an occasion to lay the wight of there iuste dampnaciō, to the vniusty [...]e of goddes eternall ordynaunce and moste ryghtuouse predestynacyon. And yet are all hys reasons [Page cxiiii] in thys greate mater so small, that a man may nat well wyt A whyther they be more wykked or more wyttelesse.

Nowe all be it that I shall purpose to treat of thys mat­ter more at longe wyth Tyndale, whan I shall come to the cōnfutacion of hys fond answeres made vnto the thyrde & fourth bokes of my dyaloge: yet can I nat presently for­bere som what to shewe you of hys abomynable errour in thys poynt. And yet in good fayth me semeth no very great nede / hys folyes after hys wordes of bothe the places bro­ught forth and layde togyther, be now so playne and euy­dent of them selfe.

For who is so betle blynde, that seeth nat clerely y darke deuelysh heresye of thys hyghe spyrytuall heretyque, that sayth it is a betle blynde fleshely reason, to thynke that the good endeuour of the mannes parte in wyllyngly confor­myng B hym selfe towarde the fayth, and captyuyng and subdewyng hys reason and vnderstandyng in to the obsequy and obedyent seruyce of belyefe, shulde be no maner helpe nor furtheraunce towarde the gettyng of any [...]rysten fayth but y the wyll hath none operacyon at all in the workynge of fayth in mannes soule, no more than the chylde hath in the bygetting of his father. For here ye se wel that we speke of suche as are of age and haue the vse of reason.

If mannes wyll had no more part towarde the attay­nynge of the belyefe, than the chylde hath in the bygettyng of hys owne father / I se nat wherfore our sauyoure shulde call vppon the people and byd them do penaunce, and be­leue the gospell,Marce. 1. as he dothe in the fyrste chapytre of saynt Marke.C

For though it be very trew, that wythout goddes helpe and goddes grace preuentyng and foregoyng, no man can beleue: yet yf there were nothynge in the man hym selfe, wherby he myght receyue it yf he wolde wyth grace whych god of hys goodnesse o [...]reth apply hym selfe towardely to the receyuing therof, & wherby on the tother syde he myght frowardly refuse it, or of slouth and necligence so sleyghtly regarde it that he were worthy to lese it: yf there were I say no suche thyng in the man whe [...]by he hym selfe myght som what do therin wyth god, our lorde wolde nat call vppon men, and [...]xhort them to beleue, and prayse them that wyll beleue, and rebuke them that wyll nat byleue, as he doth in many playne places of the scrypture.

[Page cxv] A But now agaynst god and hys holy scryptures, it is a worlde to se what slēdre thynges Tyndale alledgeth. Fyrst he sayth that it is a betle blynd fleshely foly, to reken that y good endeuour of man shuld be any thyng worth towarde the atteynyng of fayth, because that [...]aythe is the gyfte of god. Is nat here an hygh reason? who denyeth that faythe is a gyfte of god. But what letteth that, that a man maye nat by hys towardnes, endeuour hym selfe to receyue the gyfte of god by goddes goodnes frely offred vnto hym / or by hys [...]rowardnes slougth or neclygence, lese and forgo y gyfte of god. Is it any thyng agaynst the nature of gyfte, to be as wyllyngly receyued and taken as it is offered and gyuen? If a man wolde gyue Tyndale a cuppe of golde / wolde Tyndale call it no gyfte, yf hym selfe dyd with good B wyll put forth hys hand to take it. Doth the willyng byhauyour of the taker, chaunge the name and the nature of the gyfte, or any thyng mynyshe the fre lyberall mynde of the gyuer. In good fayth I muste nedes confesse my selfe so betle blynde, that I can se no reason at all neyther fleshely nor goostly in thys reasō of Tyndale / nor as I wene Tyndals owne sharpe egle yien neyther.

what good thynge is there that is nat the gyfte of god? hoope, charytie, coutynence, pitye, lernyng, wysedome, or any thynge in this worlde y ought is. For as sayeth saynt Iames, euery good perfyte gyfte is frome aboue discendynge from the father of lyghtes.Iacobi. 1. And saynt Poule sayth,1. C [...]rm [...]. 4. what haste thou y thou haste nat receyued? And of whome ment he all thinge receyued, but of goddes gyfte. Nowe C shall euery man than in Tyndals hyghe spirytuall iudge­ment, be taken for flesshely and betleblynde, that wyll be so folysshe to put any endeuoure of his owne to laboure and worke with god, in the gettynge of hope or charytie, pyte­full affeccion or chastyte, lernynge, iustyce, wysedome, or any other good thynge. Bycause they be all gyftes of god, a man muste therfore sytte euyn styll and do nothynge to­warde it, tyll god come and gyue hym all thynge vnware. For if he may beware before / than muste he by Tyndal, do nat so m [...]che as be willyng to receyue it. For he that by his wyll receyueth it, and whiche shulde els for his frowarde­nesse and contrarye wyll go without it: he dothe ye wote well somwhat more in gettyng therof, than doth the sonne in the begettynge of his owne father / wherein the sonnes [Page cxvi] wyll that is yet vnb [...]goten, can nothinge make nor marre.A where as in the gettynge, attaynyng [...], and receyuynge of these vertues / the wyll of the man conformable & toward, worketh with god [...]d doth somwhat / not as a dede vesel, where into Tyndale putteth and powreth hys bere / but as a quycke instrume [...]t as the hand of ye man that wyttyngly and wyllyngly receyueth a gyfte of a nother mannes ly­berall offer.

Now yf Tyndale wolde here labour to make vs betle­blynde wyth hys bl [...]nte soteltees, and tell vs that we can do thyng tyll god [...]reuent vs wyt [...] his grace nor nothyng but as hys grace goth on forth wyth vs: these tales when they be all tolde, be n [...] worth a whystle. For ye maye tell hym agayne, that we saye not that mannes endeuoure can any good do wythout god. But we saye that when men en­deuoure B them sel [...]e towarde so good a thynge / they maye then make them selfe sure, that god hath preuented theym wyth hys grace, for elles they coulde not so do / and that he is redy wyth hys grace to walke forwarde wyth them. And syth theyr endeu [...]re [...]owarde good is good: therfore yf they wyll styll perceyuer and walke on styll wyth god, he wyll walke on styll wyth them. And theyr endeuour shall not be a voyde folysshe thynge as Tyndale calleth it / but a frutefull worke towarde the attaynynge of fayth, though Tyndale wolde saye nay therto.

I wolde also very fayne wytte of Tyndale / yf hym selfe were as ferme and as faste in the trewe chrysten fayth, as he is in hys heresyes / and then shulde happen to fall in cō ­pany wyth eyther Paynyme, Turke, Saracen, or Iewe, & C wolde exhorte them to the chrysten fayth / and that all be it they graunted hym the bylyefe of one almyghtye god, yet for aught that he sayd vnto them, he founde them farre of from the bylyefe (not onely of the sacrament of the awlter, from whyche hymselfe is now as farre of as any of them) but also farre of from the bylyefe of the sonne & holy goste, and fynally from the takynge of our scryptures for holy or for wrytynges worthy credence: what aduyce and coun­sayle wolde Tyndale gyue them? wolde he not aduyse and counsayle them to pray vnto god, and to call ayde of hym, that it myght please hym to helpe to lede them in the waye of the ryght bylyefe / and that he wold with his grace helpe theym to inclyne theyr hartes in to the folowynge of that [Page cxvii] A thynge, that shulde be vnto hys pleasure and the saluacyō of theyr owne soules / whych kynde & prayour they myght assente vnto wythout any preiudyce of theyr owne fayth. wolde he not also counsayle them to faste and forbere wo­men, to the entent theyr prayour myghte be the more clene and pure / and aduyse them also to gyue good almoyse for goddes sake, as dyd Cornelius whō saynt Peter was sent vnto hym therfore. wolde he not also counsayle them to be not wylfull nor obstynate, but conformable and wyllynge to here and lerne the trouth and vpon the herynge therof gladly to prente in theyr hartes those thynges that moste make towarde the mouyng and inclynacyon of theyr myn­des, toward the credence therof. And wold he not tell them that thorow suche towarde and wyllynge demeanure on B theyr parte (in the doynge wherof, theym selfe not lackyng nor beyng slouthfull, god wolde not fayle to preuent them wyth hys grace, helpe, & fauour, and be before them) god wolde lede them and go forth with them, & neuer leue them nor forsake them, tyll he wolde wyth theyr owne good en­deuoure walkynge and workynge with hym, brynge them fyrste into the ryght bylyefe and good hope and godly che­ryte, with other many vertuouse and good wurkes proce­dyng therupon / & fynally by that meane, after thys transy­tory lyfe, into ye perpetuall blesse & eternall ioyes of heuen.

whyther wolde Tyndale aduyse them thus? whyche yf he dyd / then sholde he teche them that mannys endeuoure towarde fayth, is not a thynge to be mocked as hym selfe mocketh it now / but that mannes own wyll doth somwhat C more towarde it, then doth the chylde to the bygettynge of hys owne father. Or ellys wolde Tyndale forbydde them all suche thynges in any wyse, & tell them that theyr owne endeuoure wolde rather hynder, and make theym ascrybe the fayth that is ye gyfte of god vnto the meryte & goodnes of theyr owne wyll, theyr owne towardenesse, theyr owne prayours, theyr owne cōtynence, almoyse dede, & fastynge, and all theyr other endeuoure. All whyche thynges yf Tyndale take for nought or peryllouse / then is it lykely that he wolde of consequence aduyce those dyscyples of hys to be well ware of all suche thynges, & do none of thē in no wyse, for the counsayle to such thynges coulde come but of betle blynde flesshely reason. And therfore Tyndales dyscyples, [Page cxviii] towarde the gettyng of the fayth, to the entent they shulde A take therof no parte vnto theyr owne prayse, but gyue the hole glory to god / sholde I saye by hys aduyse vse none en­deuoure at all, nor do no thynge, nor saye no thynge, nor thynke no thynge, but sytte euen styll sadly, and gape by daye agaynste the sonne, by nyght agaynste the mone, tyll eyther some blynde betle or some holy humble bee come flye in at theyr mouthes, and buzze in to theyr brestes an vnholsome hepe of flye blowen errours and motthe eten heresyes.

And thus good chrysten readers, the reason that Tyn­dale maketh vs agaynste the endeuoure of man towarde the attaynynge of fayth / whyche endeuoure he mocketh & calleth it a counsayle of betle blynde reason, bycause fayth is the gyfte of god: I dowte not I saye but that hys rea­son B is suche, that a man that were betle blynde in dede, may perceyue well inough that Tyndale for lacke of good en­deuoure, hath had of the gyfte of god lytell wytte and lesse grace, in makynge of that feble and vnlawfull reason.

Tyndals other reason agaynst the good endeuour of mannes wyll is thys.

Tyndale.

My wyt muste shewe me a trewe cause or an apparent cause why, yere my wyll haue any workynge at all.

More.

Lette Tyndale set hys consequente and conclusyon to thys antecedent made of thys reason, and saye, My wytte muste fyrste shewe me some cause eyther trewe or somwhat C semynge trewe, before that my wyll can any thynge do at all: ergo none endeuoure of my selfe in conformynge and applyenge of my wyll, can any thynge do at all. And now when hys argumēt is all made vp / ye shall fynde it as full of reason as an egge full of mustarde.

For what though my wytte and reason muste fyrste set my wyll a wurke / can yet my wyll when it is ones moued dyuersly bytwene two reasons, no thynge do at all in remouynge an obstynat le [...]ynge to the tone syde, or a conforma­ble inclynacyon towarde the consent of the tother.

If all the fayth of suche trewthes as are taughte, were in suche wyse inspyred into euery mannes harte that is a [Page cxix] A faythfull man, as he by that inwarde inspyracion had such a full perfayt and clere perceyuynge therof, in the inwarde syghte of the vnderstandynge, as the bodyly eye hath of y thynge that it playnely seeth and loketh vppon / or as the syghte of the soule hath in suche euydent and open conclu­syons, as it dothe playnely and openly byholde / suche I meane as are the generall petycyons in the fyrste boke of Euclidis geometry, as that euery hole thynge is more then hys owne halfe or suche other lyke: then wold I well agre wyth Tyndale, that when the thynge were so shew [...]d vnto my wytte, I coulde not but agre therto wyth my wyll. But I say that all be it god is able in suche wyse to inspyre and infounde the fayth yf that hym lyste: yet I saye that ordy­naryly into hys faythfull folke, neyther fynall reprobates B nor fynall electes (for faythfull are at sundry tymes of both the sortes) he gyueth not the bylyefe or fayth on that fas­shyon. For yf he dyd / then were it not fayth nor byly [...]fe, but very syghte and knowlege. And suche kynde of so cer­tayne and open reuelacyon, were vnto the man occasyon of bylyefe and credence necessaryly, surely, and ineuytable / but therfore as it semeth, neyther thankworthy nor rewar­dable.

Now dothe god wyth hys chrysten folkes ordynaryly take that waye in the gyuynge theym theyr bylyefe and fayth, that though they do not meryte wyth any forgoyng good dedes, nor deserue the gyfte of byleuynge / yet maye they wyth good endeuoure and obedyente conformyte, de­serue and meryte in the beleuynge.

C And therfore syth god wyll for that cause bynde vs to the bylyefe, bycause he wyll that we meryte and be rewar­ded for our bylyefe (the reason of whyche deserte and meryt on our parte, standeth in the respecte and regarde that god hath to our obedyence, by whyche we wyllyngly submytte our selues to the credence of goddes worde wryten or vn­wryten, tellynge vs any thynge agaynste oure owne rea­son tellynge vs the contrary) then yf our bylyefe loste hys meryte (as that holy pope saynte Gregory sayth it shulde) yf reason playnely proued vs the thynge that we byleue: so were the meryte of our bylyefe loste in lyke wyse, yf the thynge were in suche wyse gyuen vs as we more perfytely perceyued it then we perceyue any suche as reason maye moste perfytely proue vs.

[Page cxx]And therfore I say, that god dothe nat ordinaryly gyue A into men the faythe in suche maner / bycause he wyll nat vtterlye take awaye the meryte fro man / for as moche as he hathe ordayned hym to ioye by the meane of some meryte, some conflycte, passyon, or payne vpon his owne parte,Roma. 8. though nat sufficient & worthy (for as saynt Poule sayth, all the passyons and sufferaunces of this worlde, be nat worthy the glory that is to come that shalbe releued in vs) yet suche at the leste wyse as his hyghe goodnes ac­cepteth and rewardeth for worthy, thorowe the force and strength of those merytes yt are in dede sufficient & worthy / the merytes I meane of y bytter payne and passyon of his alone onely begotten and tenderly beloued sonne. Than say I nowe, that syth y faythe is nat ordinaryly with suche open ineuitable and inuincyble lyghtsomnes inspyred in B to the soule, that the man muste of necessyte and very fyne force clerely perceyue and agree it / but by god prouyded so sufficiently to be shewed & taught, as he that wyll be con­formable and walke with goddes grace, may fynde good cause inoughe to captyue his reason to the belefe / and yet nat so great and vrgent causes, but that he whiche wyll be yll wylled and frowarde, may let grace go, and fynde him selfe cauellacyons prowdely to test vpon his owne reason agaynste the worde of god / eyther sayenge that his reason seeth it nat sufficiently proued for goddes worde (as Tyn­dale sayeth in all goddes wordes vnwrytten) or elles that goddes worde is nat so ment as all Christes churche vn­derstandeth them (as Tyndale sayeth touchyng y playne scriptures agaynste the maryages made bytwene freres & C nonnes) the poyntes of the faythe are nat I saye in suche wyse shewed, nor the wytte in t [...]em so thoroughly and so clerely instructed / but that the thynge whiche in the wytte lacketh and remayneth imperfyte, may by the wyll be per­fyted and made vp / and in stede of sure and certayne sight, be from distruste or doubtefull opinyon broughte by god workynge with mannes wyll into sure faythe and vndou­ted belefe. And this I say for the tyme of this presente lyfe / and in the lyfe to come, than turned into full syghte and ineuitable contemplacyon.

And that thys is the ordynary maner of the fayth geuen by god into the soule, wyth the plyable and cōfortable wyll of man / and not an ineuytable syght of the trouth inspyred [Page cxxi] A into the man whyther he wyll or not, in suche maner wyse that he can not chose but bileue it / the scryptures be playne and euydent.

Doth not saynt Poule vnto the Hebrewes in the dyffy­nycyon of fayth,Hebrae. 11. openly and clerely declare, that the faythe is an argument or mater of thynges that appere not. Now yf the resurreccyon of our owne body were in thys worlde in suche maner apperynge vnto vs, as it shall after the re­surreccyon when we be in heuen / it were now no fayth at all but a sure knowlege. And therfore sayth saynte Poule also, that we se now as it were but in a glasse, & perceyue & beholde but as it were in a darke rydle / but in the tother worlde shall we se face to face.

To shewe also that god geueth not ordynaryly ye faythe B to folke, but wyth some maner of towardnes and confor­myte of theyr owne good wyll / our lorde sayth hym selfe vnto the cytye that he so sore longed to conuerte,M [...]tth. [...]. Hierusa­lem Hierusalem, how oft haue I wylled to gather thy chyldren to gether, as an hēne gathereth to gether her chykēs, and thou woldeste not.

No man here dowteth, but that our lorde yf he wolde haue vsed some suche wayes as he coulde / it was in hys power to inspyre the knowlege of hym selfe into theyr har­tes, and of all thynge that he wolde haue them byleue / and that in suche wyse, that they sholde not chose but byleue, for they sholde not chose but knowe it / & that in suche wyse that they coulde not haue thought the contrary. But god had determyned to brynge man to saluacyon, not in suche C ineuytable wyse, nor wythout some wyllynge conuersyon and turnynge of man towarde hym / though man can not turne vnto hym without preuencyon & concurraunt helpe of goddes especyall grace. But syth the goodnesse of god prouydeth, that his grace is euer redy to hym that wyll vse it / therfore though the wyll of man maye no thyng do with out grace, yet wythout any spekynge of grace we comenly let not to saye, man maye do thys, and man maye do that, as byleue, and hope, and loue, and lyue chast, & do almo [...]se, and faste, & many such other thynges / not menyng though we make no mencyon of grace, that man can therfore do them wythout grace. Lyke as we saye that a man maye se to threde a nedle and speke no thyng of the lyght, and yet mene we nat that he can threde it in the darke.

[Page cxxii]And therfore let nat Tyndale loke to bryng vs in dar­kenesse A / and because mannes wyll can nothynge do with­out grace, therfore tell vs that mannes wyll can nothynge do, nor tell vs neyther that mannes wyll hath no parte in belefe and faythe / and make vs wene it were so, bicause the wyll can nat as he sayeth go before the wytte / wherof expe­ryence proueth many tymes the contrary, and sometyme with Tyndale to. But thoughe a man can nat haue any wyll at all in that thynge wherof he hathe vtterly nothyng knowen nor herde tell of, nor hadde imagynacion in hys mynde, nor any thynge thought vpon: yet when ye mynde with dyuers reasons and argumentes is ones moued of a mater, the wyll as it happeth of other occasyons at ye tyme to be well or euyll affectionate, so may gyue it selfe into the consent and agrement of the tone syde or of the tother / ye B and that somtyme on that syde for affection, vpon whiche syde he seeth leste parte of his wytte and reason. And ther­fore it is nat alwaye true that Tyndale sayeth in these wordes,

Tyndale.

And than whan we se his mercy, we loue hym agayne, and chose hym, and submytte our selfe to his lawes to walke in them.

More.

Here semeth he to gyue as moche to the workynge of mannes wyll concernynge charyte, as he before toke from it concernynge faythe. For here he sayeth that we chose god, and submitte our selfe to his lawes / where as of truth without his grace, bothe preuentyng vs and concurraunt with vs, we can in these thynges neyther, do nothynge C at all.

Nowe meneth Tyndall ferther for all this, that mannes wyll in these thynges yet dothe nothynge worke at all but of necessyte. For he sayeth ye god maketh thē to se his mer­cy by fayth, without any maner working of their wylles, as ye haue herde. And than he sayeth that vpon the sight thereof / they loue god, and chose hym, and submytte them selfe to his lawes. But yet sayeth he, that their wylles do this of ineuitable necessyte. And than can no man if Tyn­dals lye be trewe, neyther in faythe nor charyte haue any meryte at all. For what can a men deserue, in beleuynge ye thynge that he thoroughly seeth, or in doynge a thynge whan he can do none other. Nowe that Tyndale so saieth, [Page cxxiii] A is open and playne by these wordes that he consequentely sayeth.

Tyndale.

For whan we erre nat in wytte, reason, and iu [...]ement / we can nat erre in wyll & choyce of thynges. For the choyse of mānes wyll doth naturally and of her owne accorde, folowe the iudgement of a mannes reason whether he iudge ryght or wronge / so that in techynge onely resteth the pythe of a mannes lyuinge.

More.

Here ye se that Tyndale in louynge and chosynge by whiche man loueth and cheseth god, putteth a playne ne­cessyte that mannes wyll can none other do, bycause he seeth the mercy of god by faythe / whiche as Tyndall fayde before, man seeth also of necessyte, and so consequently no B meryte in neyther nother.

But Tyndale sayeth vntrue in bothe. For man neyther of necessyte seeth the tone, nor of nece [...]syte dothe the other, but may do the contrary bothe in the tone and the tother / and therfore in doynge bothe, meryteth in bothe what so euer Tyndale saye.

But yet sayeth Tindale vntrue in these other two thin­ges also / that is to wytte bothe where he sayeth, that whan a man seeth the mercy of god, than he loueth and choseth god, and submytteth hym selfe to walke in goddes lawes / and also where he sayeth for the profe of that poynte, that whan we erre nat in wytte, we can nat erre in will / but that the choyce of the wyll dothe euer folowe the iudgement of the reason. For fyrste what question is there, but that C many whiche ryght surely beleue the mercy of god, do nat yet loue god in suche wyse as is requisite vnto saluacyon / that is in the preferrynge his pleasure before theyr owne, and to forbere synne for the loue of his lawe, and for the re­garde of his goodnes to fulfyll hys commaundementes. But we fynde it many tymes farre contrarye, that the ouer great regarde of his mercy, turneth truste into presump­cyon, and maketh men the more bolde in synne / so forsothe that neyther loue of god, nor desyre of heuen, nor drede of hell, is able to pulle them backe.

Nowe as touchyng the tother point, that whan we erre nat in wyll and iudgement, we can nat erre in will & choyce of thynges / but that the wyll alway doth naturally accorde and agree to folowe the iudgement of reason, whether it [Page cxxiiii] iudge ryght or wronge: we shal differ the sotletees of that A disputacyon, tyll we come to the place in hys answere vnto my thyrde and fourthe boke of my dyaloge, where I pur­pose god wyllyng, to touche this matter more full / & wyll at this tyme nothynge els obiecte agaynste hym, than the playnest profe that can be, that is to wytte euery mannes owne experyence and expresse perceyuinge of the contrary. For many a wretche that dothe an abominable dede, seeth and perceyueth full well that he dothe very noughte, and that he shulde nat do so / and his wytte and his reason for­bideth hym. But his wyll fallynge from the folowynge of his reason, to the fulfyllyng of his fleshely desyre & beestly luste and deuelysshe appetite, accomplyssheth his detesta­ble dede / nat for any lacke of wyt and reason, but thorowe faute of the frowarde wyll wyttyngly workynge for plea­sure B agaynste reason.

Many a man that hathe a great wytte and a great rea­son to, and moche lernynge ioyned vnto them bothe, dothe yet more folysshely and more vnresonably, than doth some other whose wytte and reason is very farre vnder his, and as for lernynge hathe vtterly none at all. And wherof cō ­meth this? but in that the tone with no lernynge & no great wytte, hath great good wyll to worke with goddes grace and do well / and the tother with moch wytte and lernyng, lacketh the wyll to worke well after his reason / & therefore letteth grace go by, and wylfully foloweth affeccion.

And yf Tyndale in this beleue nat me, nor all the wyde worlde besyde / he wyll I truste at the leste wyse beleue him selfe. Nowe than sayeth he in mo places of his boke than C one, that I se the truthe well inoughe, and that I se well inoughe that I shuld nat do as he sayeth I do, wyttingly and wylfully wryte agaynste the truthe. wherin if he wyll nowe confesse that he sayeth vntrue / lette hym reuoke hys lye and call it backe agayn, and than god forgyue him and I do. And if he wyll abyde styll by that worde that he said than / than muste he go fro this worde quyte that he sayeth nowe. For yf I wote well I do nat well, and yet for all that I do it / than is there one man at the leste wyse whose wyll foloweth nat his wytte. And than if I be suche one, I shall nat I truste lyue all alone / but shall rather than fayle, fynde Tyndale hym selfe so good a felowe, as to fal­cefye his owne wordes here and bere a pore man company.

[Page cxxv] A And that his wordes here be very false in dede / dothe yet farther appere by hys conclusyon that he concludeth theron, if his conclusyon do necessarily folowe. For hys conclusyon is this, that in teching onely standeth the pythe of a mannes lyuynge. For if this be false as in dede it is / than if it necessarely folowe vpon hys other wordes, hys other wordes must nedes be as false as it / for vpon a truth nothyng can there folowe but truthe, as euery man lerned well knoweth.

But nowe knoweth euery man very well, that all the pythe of a mannes lyuynge standeth nat in onely techyng. For many be full well taught howe they shulde lyue, ye & so well taught that they be able to teche it other full well / & yet lyue them selfe full nought. we shall nat nede to seke B longe for ensample, syth no man douteth but that Iudas Scariothe had so good a scole mayster, and was with him so longe, that if he had any wyt he was metely well taught howe he shulde lyue. And that he was nat all wytlesse, thoughe by defaute of good wyll [...]e waxed in conclusyon gracelesse / appereth well, in that so wyse a mayster as oure sauyour was, sent hym forthe amonge other for one of hys vsshers, to teche in his owne tyme.Matth. 1 [...]. And yet as well taught as he was, and as well as he taught other to / yet was hys owne lyuynge nat very good, whyle he was bothe a the [...]e and a traytour bothe to god and man.

And yet that we shall nat nede to seke so farre as fyftene hundred yere ago / I wene it wyll be no great difficultie to fynde folke inoughe euyn nowe in our owne tyme, that can C preche and gyue good counsayle to theyr neyghbours, a­gaynste the vyces in whiche they lyue them selfe. So that thoughe to good lyuynge, good techynge be necessary / yet may euery fole se that in good techynge, standeth nat all y pythe of good lyuynge, as Tyndale sayeth it dothe / sythe many men haue ben well taught, and yet lyued nought.

But this wyse reason amonge many lyke, lerned Tyn­dale of his mayster Luther / whiche at wormes in Almayne at his beynge there before the Emperour sayd, that yf the gospell were well taughte, there shulde nede none other lawe. And this sayd he there, & this sayeth Tyndale here / bycause they and theyr felowes wolde fayne take away all lawes, and leaue nothynge but sermons. And than after that theyr vngracious he [...]esyes myght be frely preched for [Page cxxvi] the gospell of god, & no lawe to let them / when after many A soules sent vnto the deuyll by theym, they shulde as they haue done in Almayne all redy, begynne sedicion and re­bellyon, and fall to ryflynge, robbery, murdre, and man­slaughter / who so shulde than without force of punysshe­ment onely, teche and preche vnto suche vnruly rebelles, shulde (ye wote well) haue a deuoute audyence.

But Tyndale in this matter whā he hath tolde vs this tale, that the pythe of mannes lyuynge standeth all to ge­ther in techynge / he addeth thervnto by and by & sayeth,

Tyndale.

Howe be it there be swyne that receyue no lernynge but to defyle it / and there be dogges that rent all good lernynge with theyr tethe.

More.

If there be suche swyne and suche dogges as in dede B there be, as our sauyour hym selfe wytnesseth in the gos­pell / if this I say be truthe as it is,Matth. 7. that Tyndale telleth vs nowe / than is it false that Tyndale tolde vs afore, that is to wytte that all standeth in techynge. For those swyne & those dogges will be nought for all the good techyng. And than to kepe suche from doynge harme, we must nat onely teche and preche / but vnto suche as wyll be lyke swyne, we muste yoke them for brekynge hedges, and rynge them for wrotynge, and haue bande dogges to dryue them out of y corne with bytynge, and leade them out by the eres.

And yf there be suche dogges as in dede there be, that rent all good lernynge wyth theyr teth / then standeth not all the pyth of good lyuynge in good teachynge. For what auayleth to tech them that wyll not lerne but rent all good C lernyng wyth theyr teth. And therfore to such dogges men may not onely preche, but muste with whyppes and battes bete them well, and kepe them from terynge of good ler­nyng with theyr dogges tethe / ye and from barkyng both / and chastyce them and make them couch quayle, tyll they lye styll and herken what is sayde vnto them. And by suche meanes be bothe swyne kepte from doynge harme, & dog­ges fall somtyme so well to lernynge, that they can stande vp vppon theyr hynder fete, and holde theyr handes afore them pretely lyke a mayde, ye and lerne to daunce to after theyr maysters pype / suche an effectuall thynge is punys­shement, where as bare techynge wyll not suffyce.

And who be now more proprely suche dogges, then be [Page cxxviii] A these heretykes that barke agaynste the blessed sacramen­tes, and tere wyth theyr dogges tethe the catholyke chrystē fayth, and godly exposycyons of the olde holy doctours & sayntes? And who be more proprely suche hoggys, then these heretykes of our dayes, of such a fylthy kynde as ne­uer came before / whyche in suche wyse defyle all holy vo­wed chastyte, that the very pure scripture of god they trede vppon wyth theyr foule dyrty fete, to drawe it from all ho­nest chastyte, into an vnclene shamefull lybertye of frerys to wedde nonnes. And therfore vnto these hogges & these dogges ye pyth of good lyuyng standeth not all in techyng. For no good thynge wyll they lerne wythout bytynge and betynge.

yet goeth Tyndale forther and sheweth mo kyndes of B folke / to whom for all his other wordes all ye pyth of good lyuynge standeth not in techynge.

Tyndale.

And there be popeholy / whyche folowynge a ryghtuousenes of theyr owne faynynge, resyste the ryghtuones of god in Chryste.

More.

These wordes lo good reder, expowne very well & very playne declare, what techynge it is that Tyndale all thys whyle so bosteth, wherin he sayeth all the pyth of good ly­uynge onely standeth / that is as he taketh it, the techynge of hys abomynable heresyes, in whyche he techeth vs that onely fayth suffyseth, and that neyther good workes haue reward in heuen, nor that any euyll workes shall haue any punysshement eyther in thys worlde or in purgatory [...] no C nor in hell neyther, yf the synner be but a bare penytent & onely byleue and repent, and be well ware in any wyse that he go to no shryfte nor do no penaunce for hys synne. For all those that do, they be those of whom he rayleth here and calleth pope holy, & sayeth they make them self a ryghtu­ousnes of theyr owne faynynge / and resyste the ryghtuousnes of god in Chryste, bycause they resyste Tyndals vn­ryghtuouse heresyes / whyche vnder pretexte of goddes onely mercy, taketh awaye goddes ryghtuousnes / and not onely that, but vnder the same pretexte of praysynge and settynge forth a more mercy, couertely and craftely depra­ueth and dysprayseth the very trewe mercy it selfe, that god of hys godnesse ordynaryly vseth towarde vs.

For Tindale maketh as though it were no mercy at all, [Page cxxviii] after a lytell penaunce in thys worlde done by the partye A for many great mortall synnes / or after a temporary payne endured in purgatory, to set the mery [...]es of Chrystes pas­syon for the remanaunt, whyche wolde ellys be infynytely tenne hundred thousande thousande tymes longer. Thys taketh Tyndale for n [...] mercy, whyche is in dede the very mercy that our lorde ordynaryly vseth. But thys order the beste blasphemeth / and as well in thys deuelysshe wurke of hys, as in dyuerse other, calleth it expresse tyrānye.

yet goeth he fynally forther to a nother kynde of suche folke, as techynge can not for a whyle helpe, and yet after doth / and of them thus he sayth.

Tyndale.

And there be that can not attende to harken vnto the truth for rage of lustes / whiche when lustes abate, come and obaye well inough. And therfore a chrysten B man muste be pacyente, and suffer longe to wynne his brother to Chryst, that he whiche attendeth not to daye maye here to morowe. We se some at theyr very latter ende when colde fere of deth hath quenched the hete of theyr appetytes, lerne and con [...]ente vnto the trouth / wherunto before they coulde gyue none [...]are, for the wyld rages of lustes that blynded theyr wittꝭ [...]

More.

Lo good reders here ye maye se, what constaunce is in thys man, here he sayth (and sayth trewe) that men wyll at some tyme not lerne nor harken to the trouth, though it be neuer so well taught them. And yet in a nother chapyter before, he sheweth that the electes as soone as euer they be taughte the trouth, assente forthwyth and wyll neuer re­syste / so he that hath a false parte to defende, neuer woteth where to holde hym.C

But at the leste wyse, thys that he now sayth is trewe & more to. For not onely when the rage is passed then men harken / but also when the rage cometh agayne, then many fall nought agayne and into dedely synne / and that of such as after waxe good agayne and fynally shalbe saued. And lyke wyse some good faythfull folke, when false shrewys come, and false heretykes / do by [...]alse doctryne fall fro the [...]rewe fayth agayne, though they hadde it before ryghte ly­uely. And yet of suche, some turne agayne by grace from theyr dedely heresyes into the lyfe of fayth / and some be so sore nowseled in the fal [...]e heresyes, and in theyr obstynate frowardnesse take suche a deuelysshe delyght, that fynally they dye therin / as dyd Bayfeld, Bayn [...] and Tewke [...]b [...]ry. [Page cxxix] A And yet in some as Tindale here telleth vs, euen in y very latter ende when the colde fere o [...] deth hath quenched the hete of theyr appetytes / god worketh wyth them towarde the consent of the trouth, wherunto before they wolde gyue none eare / as he dyd in dede in that good and contryte pe­nytent & open confessour both of hys fayth and hys fawte, M. Tho. Bylney. whiche [...] beynge onys good, faythfull, & vertu [...]use, dyd after by the false delyght of Luthers & Tyndales bokes, fall in to theyr false heresyes, and helde on in them thorow the delectacyon and vayne glory that he toke in the prayse of that secrete sect and scatered congregacyō / tyll fynally at hys deth god of hys goodnesse opened hys eyes / and he loked vppon him selfe, and considered that all those vayne praysours he muste go from them by fyre / and B sawe that yf he dyed in those heresyes he sholde neuer mete wyth them more but in the fyre of hell where he shold neuer fro them / then turned he to the trewe fayth agayne, and ex­horted them all vnto the same.

And thus good reders ye se that of hys order of eleccyō Tyndale hath in thys chapyter hytherto sayed no thynge to purpose / & now shall ye se that as lytell he sayth to pur­pose in thys that after foloweth.

Tyndale.

And though goddes electe can not so fall that they ryse not agayne, bycause that the mercy of god euer wayteth vp [...]n them to delyuer them from euyll / as the care o [...] a kyn [...]e father wayteth vppon his sonne, to warne hym and to kepe hym from occasyōs, and to call hym backe agayn yf he be gone to farre: yet they forgette them selues oftymes, [...]nd synke downe into traunces; and C fall a slepe in lustes for a season. But as soone as they be awaked they repent and come agayne without resystaunce.

More.

Here maketh Tyndale as thoughe he sayde a greate thynge. And whan his wordes are well examyned / he both meneth very falsely, & speketh folysshe wylyly. For where he sayeth, that an electe can nat so fall, but that he shal ryse agayne / he meaneth that of necessyte the electe muste ne­des ryse agayne, thor [...]we the mercy of god that euer way­teth vpon him / whiche is very false.

For all be it that of trouthe the electe shall aryse agayne by meane of goddes grace and mercy / yet myghte he if he wolde lye styll in synne, whan goddes grace and mercye calleth vpon him and byddeth hym ryse / as many repro­bates [Page cxxx] do vpon whome goddes grace and mercye wayteth,A and calleth as faste as he calleth vpon hys electes, and is as redy to helpe them vp agayne as y tother, if they wolde ryse, and that the malyce or slouthe of theyr owne wylles letted them nat to take holde of goddes grace, and made them nat lye styll in synne lyke swyne.

Nowe that Tyndale thus meneth, appereth playne by the whole processe of his worke. wherin as concernynge saluacyon and dampnacyon, he laboreth to make vs wene that the wyll of man dothe nothynge wyllyngly, but were vtterly forced and ineuitably necessytat by the eternal elec­cyon of god vnto glory and his eternall reprobacyon vnto payne / whiche is as moche, as to say that the wyll of man is no wyll at all, any more than as he myght saye that the wyll of, a tre were to growe and brynge forthe frute & lea­ues,B and that the wyll of an axe were to hewe downe the tre whan a man smyteth the tre therwith.

And that [...]e thus specially meneth in thys chapyter of the ordre of our eleccycon, appereth as well in generall by the hole progresse therof, as by this also that he assigneth that thynge as the onely difference betwene the electes and the reprobates / alledgynge that the electes can neuer so fall but that they shall ryse, by the reason that mercy way­teth euer vpon them. wherby it well appereth that Tyn­dale meneth, that no reprobate, that is to wytte none that finally shalbe dampned, hathe goddes mercy whyle [...]ely­ueth waytynge vpon him to call vpon him, and styrre him to ryse out of his synne. For excepte he ment so / he shulde put electes & reprobates all in one case, if he sayde that the C mercy of god which onely thinge he sayeth waytyng vpon the electe, reyseth hym out of synne, wayted vpon the re­probate to / but if he shulde put some dyfference bytwene them by reason of y different workyng of theyr fre wylles, whiche Tyndale wyll none of in no wyse.

Now menynge falsely thus / he vseth yet in hys speche a folysshe wylynes, as doth a cony that couereth her hed, and weneth all were well when all her loynes be open.

For he sayth that the electes can not so fall but that they shalbe so saued, bycause mercy wayteth vppon them. And therin he sayth truth. For yf god had not foresene that they wolde fynally turne agayne to hym, and wyth helpe of hys grace deserue to be parte takers of the mer [...]tes of Chry [...]tes [Page cxxxi] A passyon, and so to be saued / he wolde not haue elected thē to saluacyon. But he meneth that they shall necessaryly be sa­ued, so that they shall not mow other then repent & amend, as soone as god of hys mercy calleth vpon them to repent. And thys though he thus mene, yet doth he dyssymule it / and sayth not, that bycause mercy wayteth euer vpon̄ them, therfore they muste nedes ryse after theyr fall / but bycause mercy wayteth vpon them, therfore they shall ryse. But thys poynt he layeth so open in many places of his worke, that it is but a folysshe wylynes of hym to wene it well couered thus.

wherfore he were as good to speke out playnely, & tell vs whyther he mene, y after a fall mercy wayte any more vpon any reprobate or not. If he say nay, he sayth agaynst B the scryptures playne. For as in the begynnyng god of his greate mercy calleth vppon all people bothe electes and reprobates to come to hym / so doth he after bothe twayne cō ­men and receyued, and gone a waye by synne agayne, call ordynaryly vppon them bothe of hys lyke mercy styll, as longe as they lyue in thys worlde here, and wolde yf they wolde assente therto them selfe and obaye, be as gladde to fynde them agayne as euer he was to wynne them before / as the wordes of holy wrytte be playne in the Apocalyps, I stande at the dore and knocke.

And yf Tyndale wyll auoyde thys / he muste then sayeApoca [...]. [...]. that all the wordes of holy scrypture by whyche god called vppon the people to repentaunce, be spoken onely to the electes. And thē must he tell euery man, how he may know C hym selfe for electe / leste he maye wene that they pertayne not to hym. And then shall he by the same reason saye, that all the cōmaundementes be wryten vnto the onely electes to / and then the reprobates can not be reproued for the not obseruynge of them, yf they were not wryten for them.

But surely if Tyndale tell vs that the mercye of god wayte vpon the onely electes, and onely calleth vpō them / he telleth vs a vayne folysshe tale. And so he dothe in dede / for so he meneth in dede agaynste the playne scripture and all the olde interpretours of the same, and agaynste all the olde holy doctours of Chrystes churche, and agaynste the catholyke faythe of all christen nacyons this .xv. hundreth yere, from the tyme of our sauyour hym selfe & his blessyd apo [...]telles, euen vnto lowsy Luther dayes.

[Page cxxxii]And yet natwithstandinge that he semeth to assygne the A cause of the rysynge of his electes out of theyr synne, to be by the mercy of god alwaye waytyng vpon them / yet han­deleth he the mater so, that a man may nat well wytte by these wordes of his, whether he meane that whā his electe is sonken downe into his traunces, and fallen a slepe in his lustes as he calleth it for a season / whether he meane I say that mercy calleth vpon hym in his traunce, & shaketh hym out of his slepe, or els let him slepe styll in hys lustes, and the deuyll rocke the cradle tyll the babe awake by him selfe. And surely he rather semeth to say, that god nat awaketh hym out of his luste / but letteth hym slepe in his luste vntyll his luste haue lefte him. As though goddes callyng of men from glotony, were nat to put them in mynde and call vpon them besely, and inspyre good thoughtes of tem­peraunces B whyle they be at theyr mete / but lette them than alone as in a traunce and a slepe, tyll they be so wery of eatynge, that the grefe and gryndyng in theyr belyes stan­dynge a strutte with stuffynge, call theym vp and awake them. And that is a good easy waye to / for than be they the more easy to entreate, to faste and forbere / but nat moche lenger than tyll they waxe an hungered agayne. And as it fareth in the traunces and slepes that folke fall in by the bely / so fareth it lykewyse in the traunces and slepes that folke fall in by those partes that are benethe the bely. For whan the rage is thereof (as Tyndall sayeth) ouer passed, and that they haue in theyr traunce and theyr slepe played out all theyr luskysshe lustes / than they awake. And than as sone as they be awake / they repent as Tyndale sayeth,C ano come agayne to chastyte without resystence. But euer more I wold that Tyndale shulde remembre, that all this tale whiche he telleth vs here, is for his purpose of electes a tale of very lytell effecte. For this tale of suche slepynge and awakynge of electes, is nothing propre to the electes / but a thynge commune bothe to the electes and to the re­probates to. And these rages, and these traunces, & these slepes in synfull flesshely lustes, into whiche folke fall, and out of whiche they wake agayne and repent / the thynge that Tyndale telleth vs here as a thynge farre fatte and sought, and serched out of the very botome of his depe di­uinite / ye same thyng in a maner as for thus farforthe, doc­tour Ouide descrybeth vs well & plainly, in his pleasaunte [Page cxxxiii] A poetry entytled the remedy of loue. where he declareth af­ter Tyndals fasshyon full clerkely, how some wanton lo­uers after theyr rages passed and theyr lustes played out, lye then wakyng, and haue medytacyons of amendement, and of leuyng of theyr lecherouse loue euyn lyeng by theyr lemmans sydes, and thynke they wyll come there no more, and wolde wyth good wyll that they hadde not come there than neyther.

In thys chapyter whyche Tyndale entytleth the order of eleccyon / I loke alwaye that he sholde as reason is, tell vs those thynges that properly pertayne vnto the electes / & the thynges that contrary wyse appertayne properly to the reprobates / by whyche maner of handelyng of ye mater, we myght clerely perceyue & vnderstande what he meneth, B and what order of goddes wurkyng or of the wurkynge of mannes owne wyll, he putteth in the course & progresse of the tone sorte and the tother towarde theyr fynall ende, the tone of euerlastynge lyfe, the tother of eternall dāpnacyon,

And alway whyle I loke for this / Tyndale, besyde that hys conclusyons be false heresyes in the ende, telleth vs no thynge almoste by the waye (excepte onely peraduenture yt laste repentaunce before the deth) but that they be comune as well to the fynall reprobates as to the fynall electes / as thys is also that in hys chapyter foloweth, where he wry­teth in thys wyse.

Tyndale.

God now and than withdraweth his hand, and leueth them vnto theyr owne strength, to make thē fele that there is no power to do good but of god onely / leste they sholde be proude of that whiche is none of theyrs.

C More.

Tyndale maketh these wordes for a grounde of a great mater, concernynge the order of god vsed towarde the elec­tes. And vpon thys fundacyō he specyally rereth hys byel­dynge, of the traunces, and the slepes, and slydinges of the electes into synnes and errours / in whyche synnes yet they synne not, and in whyche errours yet they erre not, bycause of theyr felynge fayth. From whyche though they fall yet they fal not, bycause they fele it still though they fele it not.

But what is there good reder in these wordes of hys y he speketh of the electes, that is not veryfyed bothe in the electes and in the reprobates to. Now yf he say that he spe­keth here specyally of the electes, bycause at somtyme god wythdraweth hys hand from them, & that from reprobates [Page cxxxiiii] he wythdraweth his hande of helpe and grace alwaye. If A he saye thus, he sayth vntrewe. For doeth not god, as he of hys goodnesse calleth them, and at theyr comynge recey­ueth them / so when they fall awaye by false fayth, or faynte harte, or flesshely delectacyon, calle vppon them agayne, as he doeth vppon hys electys, wythout accepcyon of per­sons or parcyall fauour indyfferently / tyll he eyther some tyme for theyr immesurable outrage, or comenly for theyr fynall impenytence, fynally reiecteth and refuseth them? Amonge whych fatherly cure and care for them, as well as for hys electes before theyr fynall fall / he vseth the same wayes to wynne & saue them, that he vseth to the other. ye and doth somtyme peraduenture gyue more of hys gracy­ouse ayde & helpe in this world toward saluacyon in heuen vnto some reprobate wretche, that wyll for all that be dam­ned B / then to some of hys electes, that wyll so wurke wyth hys grace that he fynally shall be saued. As I dowte not but some two soules haue ben saued and now syt in heuen, wyth the tone halfe of the grace that Iudas had, and caste of, and fynally fell into hell.

And therfore thys that Tyndale here telleth vs of elec­tes, that god somtyme wythdraweth hys hande and leueth them to theyr owne strength / he maye as well tell vs of the reprobates as of the electes.

Now the cause why god wythdraweth hys hande and hys helpe, is not alwaye the cause that Tyndale here alledgeth, bycause he longeth alway to make a glaunce agaynst all the meryt of mannes fre wyll / but to auoyde the pryde of the mynde, and the farre lesse boldnes presumynge vpon C the surtye of hye holy lyuynge or fayth / whyche many men maye fall in by takynge them selfe for god almyghtys my­nyons, though they gyue all the thanke to hym selfe, and ascrybe no thynge to theyr owne strength at all, nor wene they haue no fre wyll at all neyther. For the proude pha­rysey that dyspysed the pore publycane,Lucae. 18. though he were proude of hys dedes, yet ascrybed them not vnto hym self, nor sayd not all thys haue I done good lord of myne owne strength. But he sayd, I thanke the therof good lorde that I am suche / and that thou haste made me better, and gyuē me the grace to lyue more holyly then thys publycane / and sayed not, I thanke therof my selfe. And therfore as I say, god wythdraweth hys hande to shewe hys electes and [Page cxxxv] [...] [Page cxxxvi] [...] [Page cxxxvii] [...] [Page cxxxviii] [...] [Page cxxxix] A the dede all thynge rekened from the fyrst to the laste, came onely of god hym selfe. And saynt Poule sayeth, what hast thou that thou hast nat receyued / and than what gloryeste thou,1. Corin [...]h. 4. as thoughe thou haddest nat receyued it. He sayeth nat as thoughe it were thyne owne. For whan I haue re­ceyued it, it is than myne and so may I call it.

Another false entent wherfore Tyndale telleth vs thys tale of withdrawynge of goddes hande somtyme from his electes, is bycause he wolde haue it stande with his heresye that he gothe so faste about / that is to wytte that the electes do not sinne dedely in theyr dedely synnes, bycause they do it nat wyllyngly but of infirmyte for lacke of power. In­pursuynge of whiche purpose he wolde make it seme, that god withdraweth his hāde from them without their faute, B and than leaueth them no power to resyste, & so no blame in them nor no synne, thoughe he be cōtent to call it synne, after ye maner yt the mocyon toward synne which rymayne of origynall synne be called synne. This is Tyndalles en­tent in this matter, by whiche he excuseth the synne of the electes by the withdrawynge of goddes hande from them / nor for any defaute of theyr owne, or any synne that they haue done,Matt [...]. [...]. but to kepe them onely from the synne that they wolde els do at another tyme. And where as god dothe for this poynt bothe for electes and reprobates all after one, that is to wyt neuer withdraweth his grace from the tone nor from the tother, tyll they begynne theym selfe to with­drawe theyr wyll from hym / he dissymuleth that poynte, & goeth forth in his mater that he byeldeth vpon that foun­dacyon, C and sayeth.

Tyndale.

God sayed so so [...]e a wayghte of persecucyon vppon Dauides backe, that pas­sed hys strength to beare. So that he cryeth o [...]te out in hys psalmes, sayenge that he had lyued well and folowed the ryghte waye of god in vayne. For the more he kepte hym selfe from synne, the worse it wente with hym as he thoughte / and the better with hys enemye Saul, the worse he was. Yet god lefte hym not there, but con [...]orted hym and shewed hym thynges whych be­fore he wyste not of [...]ho [...] that the sayntes must be pacyent and abyde goddes heruest, vntyll the w [...]y [...]enes of vngodly synners be full rype, that god may repe it in dewe season. God also suffred occasyons stronger then Dauid to [...]ail vppon hym, and to carye hym clene out of the waye. Was he not redy for a chursysshe answere to haue slayne [...] [...]bell, and all the males of hys howse, so myche as the chyld in the cradell. How be it god withhelde hym and kept [Page cxl] hym backe from that euyll, thorowe the wysedome of Abegall. How longe A s [...]ombred he, or rather how harde in slepe was he in the adultery of Bathseba, and in the murder of her husbonde Vriah. But at lothe tymes as so [...]ne as he was rebuked and hys faute tolde hym / he repented immedyately, and turned agayne mekely. Now in all that longe tyme from the adultery of Baths [...]be vntyll the prophete Nathan rebuked hym, he had not lost his fayth, nor yet his loue vnto the lawes of god no more then a man loseth his wyttes when he is aslepe. He had forgotte hym selfe onely / and had not malycyously caste of theyr yoke of goddes commaundementes from of his necke. There is no man so good, but that there cometh a tyme vppon hym, when he fealeth in hym selfe no more fayth or loue vnto god, then a syke man of tymes feleth the taste of his meate whyche he eateth.

More.

Lo good reders, here ye se that by Tyndales doctryne, Dauid dyd no dedely synne / but was euer out of faute and B nat blame worthy, neyther by impacyence drawynge nere to dispayre in persecucyon, nor by ye purpose of moch man­slaughter at an angry worde, nor by auoutry conceyued at the sight of another mannes wyfe, nor by the trayterous destruccyō of his frendely seruaūt in recompence of truthe & amendes of his mysdede. All this was no dedely synne in hym, bycause he was an electe.

But yet is Tyndale ashamed to confesse and say bolde­ly, that to be electe is inoughe, and that he may do what he lys [...]e and synne at his pleasure, and that god will gyue him leaue to do it, & cause hym to be repentaunt whan he hathe done it, and forgyue hym forthwith whan he repenteth, & and so forth totiens quotiens a pena et culpa, so that he be­leue it well and surely truste thereto, leste for faynte hope & C feare he fall the lesse to synne. This tale is Tyndale (I saye) somwhat ashamed to tell vs euen well and playnely forthe / and therfore he deuyseth another waye, and wolde make vs beleue that they be so preserued by the fayth, that they do neuer any dedely synne. But theyr dedes be suche, as men may well se that they be nat to be blamed for them be they neuer so bestely, but very babis [...]he and veniall / and suche as god can do no lesse of very ryght and reason than remytte and forgyue / and that for thre great causes here specifyed by Tyndale.

Fyrste for they neuer synne but vpon greate occasyōs farre aboue their strength. Secondely, for after theyr hor­ryble dedes done, they repent vpon rebukyng without re­systence. [Page cxli] A And thyrdely (whiche mooste is of all) all the whyle that they be in doynge, the poore babes wote nere what they do, but be all the whyle a slepe, as he putteth here his ensample by Dauid. And therfore lette vs con­sydre Dauid his dedes with Tyndals wordes, & examyne in them these thre godly reasons.

Fyrste he sayeth that Dauid synnes arose vpon great occasyons aboue Dauid his strength / whiche great occa­syons god suffred to fall vpon hym and cary hym awaye. For whan he wolde haue slayne Naball and all his sonnes euen to the childe in the cradell, he fell nat into that mynde without great occasyon ye wote well. For the rude felowe had as Tyndale well reherseth, gyuen hym a churlyshe answere. And what man were there so vnreasonable, yt wolde B not thynke that a kynge or a great man had cause inough to kyll twenty paysans & vyllayns, for a churlysh answere of one of them? Now when he fell to aduoutry & therby to manslaughter / had he not a great occasyon to it & importable to bere? For he saw y woman as he loked out at his wyndow. And therfore who so euer haue ones the syght of a womā, is excusable yf he take her when he can catche her / & no man greatly to blame, but eyther a blynde man, or he that taketh one in y darke whom he neuer saw in y lyghte.

But we must here yet remēber lest we mystake Tyndale, that these great & stronge occasyōs were not so very greate & stronge of thē selfe / but they were as Tyndale sayth strō ­ger then Dauyd, and able to cary hym awaye [...] whych [...] he sayth, to shew vs yt they were of y strength in cōparison of C y person, not so mych by the force & strength of theyr owne nature, as by ye lyghtnes, fraylty, & feblenes of Dauid / as a small burdē is a great wayght vpō a child, & able to bere hī downe / & a lytell wynd able inough to blow away a fether.

Then wolde ye wene that he accuseth Dauyd and the electes, bycause they be so lyght and so frayle to falle vpon suche occasyons as be stronge to them, by reason of theyr owne feblenesse. Nay forsoth. For here ye muste remember that to prouyde theym theyr excuse in thys poynt, was the cause for whyche as I tolde you before he layed for a fun­dacyon / that god at soche tymes fyrste wythdraweth hys hande of hys helpe, & then muste they nedes be weke, feble, and frayle. And so theyr fall cometh of the occasyons / & the occasyons be myghty to them, by reason of theyr feblenesse. [Page cxlii] And theyr feblenesse cometh of the wythdrawynge of god­des A hande. And he wythdraweth it wythout any desert and defawte of them, onely to kepe them from the synne of ta­kyng their good workes for theyr owne. And so is there in all the progresse of theyr dede, n [...] dedely synne in them self / syth the occasyons that bryng them to it, be wythout theyr owne fawte strenger then they / and by reason of theyr faw­teleste feblenesse, cary them clene awaye.

And thys is as ye se the fyrste goodly cause, for whiche Tyndale wyll make vs wene, that the abomynable dedes of electes be no dedely synnes bycause of the greate occasy­ons. Agaynste whyche yf the mater were worth the argu­ment, we wolde prece vppon hym sore wyth the synnes of the reprobates / and bere hym in hande that some of theym haue as greate occasyons of theyr synnes somtyme, as is B a churlysshe answere to the kynge of a man, or the syght of a naked woman out at a wynddwe for aduowtry. And we wolde then aske hym suche questyons forther, eyther of holdynge of goddes hande ouer them, or wythdrawynge hys hande of helpe from them, wyth other dyuerse dependaun­tes theruppon, whyche euery ler [...]ed man may some fynde out hym selfe and almoste vnlerned to [...] whiche when Tyn­dale sholde answere to / he sholde soone make euery wyse man se, that in thys chapyter of the order of theyr eleccyon, he hath elected and chosen a very folysshe order.

But for as myche as the foly therof is open and playne of it selfe / we shall let the forther dyspycyons of thys poynt passe,1. Corinth. 10. as agaynst which saynt Poule playnely speketh and sayth vnto vs, God is faythfull whyche suffereth you not C to be tempted aboue y that ye maye bere, but maketh wyth the temptacyon a way out also, that ye maye well weild yt. By whyche wordes thys poynte of occasyons aboue our power is clene caryed awaye / and it is clerely determyned, that god suffereth no suche temptacyon to come vnto vs, but suche as we maye bothe reprobates and electes be able to wythstande if we wyll, thorow the assystence of goddes gracyous hande / whiche he neuer wythdraweth but in the fawte of our owne wyll, and neuer denyeth to put it forth vnto vs yf we call therfore and wyll take holde vppon it. And therfore syth as I saye the reprofe of thys fyrst poynt is playne / I wyll now passe it ouer and se what substaunce is in the seconde.

[Page cxliii] A The seconde thynge is, that as soone as they be rebu­ked and theyr fawtes tolde them, they repente immedya­tely and turne agayne mekely. For thys he sayd .ii. or .iii. tymes in two or thre chapyters / and now he confermeth it wyth hys ensample of Dauyd, whyche dyd so as he sayth at bothe tymes.

But yet is thys but barely layed forth for the order of y electes. For of trouth thus do some reprobates to amōge repente, not onely when they be rebuked, but also before to / and be forgyuen at theyr repentaunce and penaunce as well as be ye electes as longe as they do so repente, tyll they be dampned bycause they dye at laste impenytent.

And also thys is not proued to be alwaye trewe, that euery electe repenteth at the fyrste rebuke, and mekely re­turneth B wythout resystence, though Dauyd so dyd twyse. There is I truste many a man in heuen, that was rebuked thryes of some one fawt, and defended it full styffely before he repented, and yet amēded after full well. And for ensam­ple we nede no ferther than the blessed apostles / and specyally saynt Thomas of Inde,Ioh [...]. 26. whyche lefte not hys dyffy­dence and dystruste, neyther at the fyrste spekynge nor the seconde, nor tyll he put hys fynger in god almyghty hys syde. But Tyndale excuseth all that by beynge amased, as he doth all the electes horryble dedes, by beynge in traun­ces and slepes, as he doth Dauyd here. For that is ye thyrd poynt and the moste specyall excuse of all electes from all dedely synne, in that they be a slepe all the whyle they do it. For thus sayth he of Dauyd, as ye haue herde.

C How longe slombred he, o [...] rather how harde in slepe was he in the adultery of Bethsaba, and in the murder of her husbonde Vriah.

More.

Dauyd was here in a very longe slomber & a very depe dede slepe in dede, yf he dyd all those deuylysshe dedes in hys slepe. Tyndale of lykelyhed laye nere hym and herde hym all the whyle snorte and [...]owte. And yf he so saye that he dyd / then is hys tale as full proued as is any parte of all hys heresyes. And except he saye it of hys owne certayn knowlege, he shall ellys neuer make me byleue, y Dauyd dyd spye her, and sent for her, and talke wyth her, and gete her wyth chylde, and sent for her husbande, and deuyse the murder, & wryte ye leter, & sent the man to hys deth, and all these dedes in dyuers dayes, & all thys whyle styll a slepe.

[Page cxliiii]But Tyndale wyll haue hym a slepe nedes, for the de­fence A of hys owne folysshe heresye, wherby he techeth vs y the electe is by fayth borne of god, and therfore doth neuer synne wyllyngly, nor consent to synne, nor caste of the yoke of the lawe, nor the loue to the lawe of god. And therfore he sayth,

Tyndale.

Now in all that longe tyme from the adultery of Bethsabe vntyll the pro­phet Nathan rebuked hym, he had not loste his fayth nor his loue vnto the lawes of god, no more then a man loseth his wyttes whyle he is a slepe.

More

Lo bycause he was all this whyle a slepe / therfore in all thys whyle he loste neyther fayth nor loue to the lawe, no more then a man loseth hys wyttes when he is a slepe. Is not here a wyse tale trowe ye? excepte that Tyndale hadde eyther loste hys wyttes, or els were hym selfe a slepe whyle B he wrote thys / he coulde neuer for shame tell vs thys tale. what calleth he losynge of fayth or loue? no thyng but such departynge therof, as he neuer cometh to it agayn? If that be so / then Tyndale setteth our sauyour Chryste to scole, and techeth hym to speke. For he sayth in the gospell, that a man loste one of hys hundred shepe,Lucae. 15. and lefte the rema­naunt and soughte the loste shepe, and founde it. And that the woman had lost her money, though by ransakynge vp her howse and sekynge she founde it at laste agayne. Now Tyndale is not so madde I suppose, as to saye that yf a man lette fall hys rynge in the mayne see, though he fynde it fyue wekes after in a fishes maw, that therfore he neuer loste it bycause he fyndeth it agayne. The comon peple say amonge, that nothynge can be founden tyll it be loste / sa­uynge C yt of a thefe they saye in sporte, he can fynde a thyng ere it be loste / and so they prayse hym in hys cunnyng, that he can do suche a maystry as no trew man can.

Now yf a thyng may be loste in dede for a season, though it be after founden agayne / how proueth Tyndale here, yt Dauyd in all thys longe whyle bytwene the fyrste syght of Bethsabe and the rebuke of Nathan, neuer loste neyther fayth nor loue.

He proueth it vs in this wyse by ensāple. A man yt lyeth a slepe leseth nat his wyttes / and therfore in likewyse Da­uid lyenge in lechery, loste neyther faythe to god nor loue to his lawe. Is nat this well lykened? yes by my she [...]he. Lesse lyke than Poules steple to a dagger sheth [...], tyll he [Page cxlv] A proue vs thorowly that Dauid was that whyle in a very slepe in dede.

For god hathe naturally prouyded slepe for mannes reste from laboure, and for his refresshynge agayne to la­boure. And the withdrawynge of the vse of our wyttes is there nat forbeden by goddes ordinaunce, excepte we slepe whan we shulde nat. And so is neyther aduoutry nor suche maner of manslaughter / but [...]e thynges of god forbeden & of theyr nature abomynable. And in the slepe also there is onely a suspendynge of the vse of the wyttes, and no con­trary wylfull doynge agaynste the wytte / as there was a wylfull workynge of Dauid, agaynste the faythfull loue of goddes lawe in his horryble dedes.

For as for his faythe, as farforthe as concerneth onely B the nature of faythe, that is to wytte of belefe / I wyll well agre with Tyndale that he lost it nat in all the whyle. And in Tyndals faythe for one poynt, in yt he [...]ugleth faythe in to hope / I wyll well agree also that Dauid had all that whyle inoughe therof styll, and peraduenture a lytell to moche to.Ga [...]a. 5. But surely as for the lyuely faythe that worketh as saynt Poule sayeth by loue / that kynde of faythe had he loste for that whyle in which he wyllyngly wrought euyll / except Tyndale say that all his lechery & his manslaugh­ter to, was wrought by loue, bycause all that euer he dyd was done for the loue that he bare to Bethsabe. And if Tyndale tell me so / than dryueth he me to the harde wall. For than can I go no farther in that poynte, but as for as concerneth his faythe I muste nedes gyue it ouer.

C Howe be it yet as touchynge his loue vnto the lawe of god / very fayne wolde I here howe Tyndale can defende it, that he loste nat that loue in no poynte of all that longe whyle, in whiche he wyllyngly wrought agaynste it, fyrste his foule aduoutry, and after myscheuous manslaughter to. Thys shall I (sayeth Tyndale) defende you well inoughe. For ye touched your selfe ryghte nowe, the very poynte at whiche I wolde my selfe haue you / whan ye said that in the naturall slepe the wytte is onely suspended, and the wyll therwith in lykewyse, so that a man dothe nat wit­tyngly nor willyngly any contrary acte agaynst the wytte, as ye sayde that Dauid dyd in his dedes. But nowe say I that Dauid dyd none of these thynges wyttyngly nor wyllyngly, but vpon those occasyons his wyttes were ra­uisshed [Page cxlvi] awaye / and bothe his wytte and his wyll suspen­ded A as it is in the naturall slepe, so that he had forgotten hym selfe, and for the whyle neyther had wytte nor wyll. For if his wytte had shewed hym hys faute / his wyll muste nedes haue folowed. But his wytte was all that whyle though nat loste, yet caryed away clene with the rage of the luste. And whan the wytte is awaye, the wyll is gone therwith. For it can nothy [...]ge do but as the wytte sheweth it as I haue sayd before. And than was the wytte a slepe and the wyll folowed the fumes that he fell into the fante­sye, and so no consentyng to synne / but as the man was in maner all a slepe, so were all his dedes in maner but a dreme.

Here is Tyndals profe pyked out vnto the beste that I can perceyue of his wordes. But nowe this reason of his,B neyther defendeth Dauid agaynste the losse of loue, and yet vtterly loseth hym by Tyndals doctryne the most espe­ciall faythe. For Tyndale as ye shall here after rede, cal­leth the faythe of the electes a felyng faythe. Nowe if Da­uid were in a slepe, all that whyle & had thereby forgotten his faythe and hym selfe to / than though his faythe had all the whyle the lyfe, yet at the leste hit loste for the whyle the felynge. For so dothe the man ye wote well in the slepe.

But lette this passe this ones as for thys tyme / and se howe he proueth that Dauid was fallen to suche a dede slepe, that he had in all that whyle neyther wytte nor wyll / and therfore consented nat vnto synne agaynste the lawe of god. Profe layeth he none ī this worlde, but onely sayth it was so. Nowe myght he lye by possybilyte, though his C tale were likely. But yet am I content if his tale be lykely, let hym be belyued. But nowe if his tale be very farre vn­lykely, reason were he brought one wytnesse wyth hym at the leste.

Nowe than whan Dauid firste began to spye her, lette that be chaunce and occasyon of one rysynge in his slepe / but whan he lyked her and longed for her, and stode styll & loked on her, and kyndled his hete hym selfe, and set hym selfe sore a fyre / was he all that whyle a slepe? whanne he thought he wolde haue her, whan he sent his messinger for her; whan he stode and talked with her, whan he brake the matter to her, whan he wanne her assent to the synne, whā he fulfylled his fowle fles [...]hely luste, whan he sente for her [Page cxxxv] A husbande to coloure and cloke theyr offence, whan he com­passed and contryued to kepe her for hym selfe and kyll her good husbande his owne faythefull seruaunt, whan he de­uysed and wrote the trayterous dedely lettre, and delyue­red that innocent man his owne dethe in his hande, to de­lyuer ouer to hym that shulde sette hym where he shulde be slayne / dyd Dauid in all this whyle amonge all these euyll thoughtes, all these vngracyous wordes, all these abomynable dedes, neuer fall from the loue of the lawe of god / but was all thys whyle a slepe, and neuer consented to synne, nor dyd none of all these thinges wyllyngly? No sayeth Tyndale. I say no more but it is lykely yes. And therfore let Tyndale tell vs whereby he proueth the con­trary. I proue it sayeth he by that that he was an elected B persone that fynally shulde be saued / and therfore bycause of that felynge faythe with whiche he was borne of god, he coulde nat consent vnto synne. Uery well. Than if a reprobate had done the lyke vpon the like occasyon or greatter / he had synned dedely, for lacke of felynge faythe, onely by­cause he was nat elected. And if he repented alyke vpon lesse occasyon, yet he shulde nat be forgyuen, for lacke of ye felynge faythe which was neuer gyuen hym, but euer kept from hym, onely bycause he was nat elected.

If I aske Tyndale here howe he knoweth or why he beleueth, that Dauid was elected to saluacyon / what wyll he answere. He wyll nat say I am sure, bycause the church so techeth hym, leste I shulde aske hym agayne whyche churche. For than were he forced to graunte that he bele­ueth C the techyng of this comen knowen catholyke churche of ours, sythe that his owne vnknowen churche can teche hym nothyng to be the better beleued vpon the credence of that churche, nat beynge knowen for the churche. Nowe shall he nat fynde as farre as I remembre, any playne eui­dent scripture prouing his finall saluacion. Than if Tyn­dall answere that he fyndeth in scripture of his faythe and his repentaunces, and nothynge of hys fynall dampna­cyon, and therfore he beleueth of these lykelyhedes that he was electe to the fynall saluacyon, and shall come to heuen at the day of dome (for Tyndales secte beleueth nat that he shall come thyther afore) I wyll nat here preace vpon hym with ye samples of suche as he hath sene here lyue well & beleue well after his owne opinyon, bothe whyle he be­leued [Page cxlviii] well hym selfe and syns he beleued wronge, of whose A saluacyon yet he maketh nat him selfe so sure as of the sal­uacyon of Dauid / but holdynge my selfe for this tyme sa­tisfyed that he beleue it so well vpon good likelyhedes, that he shulde nat beleue a man that wolde without good profe tell hym the contrary / I shall no more but praye hym to be so resonable and so indifferent agayne towarde vs, as to gyue vs leaue in lykewyse to beleue vpon good lykelyhe­des that Dauid consented to synne, and nat to beleue him, that without good profe wolde with his bare worde make vs wene the contrary, and boldely bere vs in hande that whyle he wrought so moche wyckednes he was all ye while a slepe.

In whiche poynte, as I haue before proued in another chapyter by lyke mater, if he were so a slepe, his very fyrste B fallynge into suche a slepe was hys owne wylfull necly­gence / whyle he beginnynge to be moued vnto leudenes at the fyrste syght of Bethsabe, stode styll and fedde hys de­uelysshe delyte in beholdynge her, and thereby wyllyngly suffred the dethe of synne to entre into his hart by the glas wyndowes of his eyen [...] wheruppon all that euer he dyd after pursuyng therupon, all had he bene in such rage that he neyther wyste what he dyd nor where he were shulde haue bene imputed vnto hym / as he that synfully drynketh hym selfe dronke dedely synneth, and shall dye also yf he kyll a man in that dronkenesse.

Nor it excuseth nat Dauid nor no man elles that Tyn­dale sayeth, There is no man so good, but that there cometh a tyme vppon hym, in whyche he fealeth in hym selfe no more fayth or loue vnto god, then C a syke man oftymes feleth the taste of his meate [...] whyther thys happe­neth vnto the best men or nat, god wote I can nat tell / I wote nat what affeccions they fele / for I am none of them, nor I fere me Tyndale neyther, as wyse and experte as he maketh hym selfe of theyr felynge. wolde god we were bo­the of the beste, so the beste were neuer the worse, nor waxen as euyll as we, and we made theyr matches in that maner wyse. But this dare I surely saye, that whan so euer the best is in such case / it excuseth nat Dauid fro dedely synne. For than is the [...]este very nought.

And fynally for conclusyon of Dauid his dedes, where Tyndale sayeth he coulde nat synne dedely bicause he was an electe / for whiche cause god kepte hym thorowe the fe­lynge [Page cxlix] A fayth from consentynge to the seruyce of synne, and fro the malyciouse castynge of / of the yoke of goddes com­maūdementes from hys necke: it appereth wery well that of hys necke was it ones, whyther hym selfe caste it of, or Bethsabe toke it of bycause he shulde not come yoked to bedde. For well we wote it hylde hym not wythin ye hedge of goddes commaundementes, but that he thruste hys hed thorow and brake a couple of them, and ranne vnyoked a good whyle. And it wyll I wene well appere also, that he caste of the soke hym selfe / & then wyll all the dowte stande vppon thys onely worde malycyously. whyche worde how Tyndale taketh, that can I not tell / but excepte he take it for no malyce, by cause it was all for loue. Ellys yf he agre that the contempte and dyspysynge of goddes lawe maye B be called malyce, and a malycyouse castynge of of the yoke of goddes lawe bothe fro loue and drede, as I wene it is expouned in god almyghtys vocabulary: then drede I no thynge but that it wyll well appere agaynste Tyndale all the hole mater / bothe that Dauyd agreed and consented to synne, & wylfully caste of goddes yoke & malycyousely to. This wyll well appere I say by p [...]ayne & euydēt scrypture.

For after those horryble synnes so comytted by Dauid, hys dedely dedes so dyspleased god, as it is wryten in the xii. chapyter of the seconde boke of kynges,2. Reg [...]m [...] 12 that he sent Nathan the prophete vnto hym. whyche by the cōmaundemēt of god, after y he had put vnto hym the parable of the rych man that toke away the pore mannes shepe, & therby made hym gyue sentence vnware agaynst hym selfe / he sayd for­ther C vnto Dauid as in the person of almyghty god, in this maner wyse as foloweth.

why haste thou then set my worde at nought, and done euyll in my syghte? Thou haste kylled wyth swerd Uryah Hetheus, and hys wyfe hast thou taken to thy wyfe, & hym hast thou slayne wyth the swerde of the sonnes of Ammon. And therfore the swerde shall neuer be taken awaye from thy howse, bycause thou hast despysed me, and taken to thy wyfe the wyfe of Uryah Hetheus. And therfore thus sayth our lord: Byholde, I shall reyse vp euyll agaynst the, euen out of thyne owne howse / & I shall take awaye frō the thy wyues before thy face, & gyue thē vnto one yt is nyghest vnto the, & he shall lye with them in y syght of this sonne. For thou haste comytted thys dede pryuely / but I wyll accom­plyshe [Page cl] this my worde in ye syght of all Israell & this sonne.A

Lo good reders, here se ye very clere, that where as Tyndale sayth that Dauid in all those horryble dedes dyd yet no dedely synne, bycause he sayeth he consented not to synne, nor dyde none of these dedes wyllyngly, nor cast not of the yoke of loue towarde the lawe of god / god here sayth that Dauyd dyd in those horryble dedes dyspyce bothe his lawe and hym selfe to. And how dyd he then kepe styll his loue to the lawe of god, in the whyle in whyche he dyspysed both the lawe of god and god hym selfe also? Or how sayth Tyndale that Dauyd cōsented not to the synne, when god hym selfe that beste knewe hys thoughte layed hys synnes so sore to hys charge, that he appoynted an endeles plage for the punisshement therof? tyll by hys repentaunce & his humble confessyon, god as he forgaue the dedelynesse of B the synne, and translated it from mortall in to venyall, so chaunged the punysshemente from endeles in to endynge.

For where as the prophete, had before hys repentaunce and confessyon sayed vnto hym by the byddynge of god, The plage shall abyde in thyne howse for euer world with ende / forthwyth after hys repentaunce and hys confessyon made, he sayed vnto hym, Our lorde hath translated thy synne that was, from dedely to venyall / that is to wytte the punysshement from eternall to temporall. And therfore the prophete sayed, that yet the chylde that he bygatte vp­pon her in that auoutry, sholde dye as it dyde after in dede. And yet was not Dauyd out of hope wyth other penaunce (whyche he hadde leuer sustayne) to purge and redeme ye punisshement to / and therfore fasted and prayed to saue the C chylde, vntyll the tyme that it was dede in dede.

And thus good chrysten reders ye maye clerely se, that all Tyndals proper processe of kynge Dauyd, concernyng the order of hys eleccyon, that he was therby preserued for euer frome all dedely synne, ys clerely comen to noughte / and all hys wordes reproued by the very playne wordes of scrypture. And yet by the same scrypture for aduauntage, is there a nother of Tyndals heresy destroyed / by whyche he teacheth that after repentaunce all is forthwyth forgy­uen vnto the electe, bothe synne and payne and all / so farre fo [...]th that for the synne passed, the partye shall neuer after be punusshed nor suffer any payne, neyther in thys world; purgatory, nor any where ellys. The playne reprofe wher­of [Page cli] A of appereth euydentely / the dedely synne translated, and y temporall punysshemente reserued by thys open place of scrypture. By whyche is reproued Tyndales other here­sye that we now go aboute / in whyche he techeth vs that Dauyd dyd none of hys horryble dedes wyllyngly, nor consented to synne, nor malycyously caste of the yoke of loue towarde the lawe of god, and therfore synned not dedely. wherin as ye se agaynste Tyndale tellynge vs thys / very god hym selfe telleth vs the contrary / and that Dauyd synned so dedely, that he synfully despysed bothe goddes lawe and god hym selfe therwyth.

And now that Tyndale hath of kyng Dauyd tolde vs hys wyse processe of not synnynge, suche as ye se it proued / he procedeth forth from Dauyd, and telleth vs as wyse a B tale of Chrystes blessed apostles. Of whom thus he sayth.

Tyndale.

And in lyke maner the apostles of [...]hryste at his passyon were astonyed and amased / and in suche a storme of temptacyons, for the soden chaunge from so greate glory into so vyle and shamefull deth, that they hadde forgotte all the miracles & all the wordes which he had told thē before, how that he shuld be betrayed and delyuered on the same maner vnto deth. Moreouer they neuer vnderstode that sayenge of his deth, bycause theyr hartes were alwaye heuy and ouer ladde with erthly thoughtes. For though they sawe hym reyse vppe othe [...] / yet who sholde reyse hym vp when he were dede they coulde not com­prehende. Rede what thou reder canst / and thou shalte fynde no temptacion lyke vnto that from the creacyon of the worlde, or so greate as it by the hun­dred parte. So that the wondrefull soden chaunge, and the terryble syghte of hys passion, and of hys most cruell and moste vy [...]e deth, and the losse of whom C they so greately loued that theyr hartes wolde fayne haue dyed with hym, and the feare of theyr owne deth, and the impossybylyte that a man shulde ryse agayne of hys owne power / so occupyed theyr myndes and so astonyed them and amased them, that they coulde receyue no comforte, eyther of the scrypture or of the myracles whiche they had sene Cryste do, nor of the monycyons and warnynge wherewith he had warned them before, neyther of the women that brought them tydynges that he was rysen. The swerde of tem­ptacyons, with feare, sorowe, mornynge, and wepynge, had so depely perced theyr hartes, and the cruell syghte had so cumbered theyr myndes / that they coulde not byleue vntyll Chryste hym selfe came, deth put of and ouercome [...] ye and when they fyrste sawe hym, they were astonyed for wonderynge and ioye to gyther, that thoughtes arose in theyr hartes, Alas is this he, or dothe some spyryte mocke vs / he was fayne to lette them fele hym and to eate with them to strength theyr faythes.

[Page] [...][Page] [...][Page] [...][Page] [...]
More.A
[Page clii]

Here haue ye herde good deuout chrysten people, a pece of Tyndals deuout godly collacyon, in whyche the man is not so farre fallen into deuocyon, but he is mych forther fallen from hys wytte / wherby he neyther perceyueth y poynt that he sholde proue, and ouer that seeth not that hys ser­mon sayth more agaynst hys mater then we that impugne hys purpose.

For hys purpose is to proue vs that none electe can at any tyme synne dedely. And now forgetteth he that poynt, & telleth vs that the apostles neuer loste theyr fayth. which yf it were graunted hym, yet wanne he not hys purpose. For they myghte kepe styll the fayth in theyr harte,Roma. 10. and yet syn [...]e dedely by the denyeng therof wyth theyr mouth. For as holy saynt Poule sayth, In harte byleue we for our iu­styfycacyon B / and wyth the mouth we confesse it for our sal­uacyon. Shewynge by those wordes, that neyther are we ryghtuouse by sayeng wyth our mouth that we do byleue, but yf we byleue in our harte / nor shal be saued by the by­lyefe of our harte, but yf no fere can let vs to cōfesse it with our mouth. wherto consenten the wordes of our sauyour hym selfe,Matth. 10. where he sayth, who so denye me before men, I shall deny hym to before my father, whyche is in heuen. And thus for the fyrste poynt Tyndale in hys holy sermon is so depe in deuocyō, yt he forgetteth where about he goth.

Now for the seconde poynt, where I sayed no more but that they loste the suffycyent fayth, that is to saye the lyfe of theyr fayth / he goth about as I tolde you, to proue vs that the apostles suche as were electe neuer loste theyr fayth at C all, nor at any tyme fell therfro. And thys poynt handeleth he so properly, that euer he telleth vs that they loste it not, and euer he proueth vs that they loste it. And by the selfe same wordes by whyche he sayeth that they kepe it alwaye styll, by the selfe same I say alwaye styll he proueth yt they kepte it not styll in dede, but were very farre fallen therfro.

For fyrst rede me all those wordes of hys agayn / and as gayly as they be cowched, wyth astonyed, and amased, & stormy temptacyons, terryble syghtes wyth theyr hartes perced, and theyr myndes cumbred, with syght of his deth, and fere of theyr owne, that ere they coulde byleue hys re­surreccyon, he was fayne to eate and drynke wyth them & to lette them fele hym / is not all thys tale excuses of theyr [Page cliii] A faythe fallen from them, and no profe of the kepyng? what was that in them, but the lacke & losse of the faythe yt Tyn­dale telleth vs, that they thoughte it impossyble that he shulde ryse agayne, bycause they thought he coulde neuer of his owne power, and coulde nat thynke or deuyse who shulde rayse hym elles?

Nowe where he sayeth that all this happed theym tho­rowe tēptacyon / that wyll we well agre. But yet is that no more to saye, but lyke as Dauid dyd auoutrye thorowe temptacyon, and kylled his good frende thorowe tempta­cyon / and as Eue ete the forbeden frute thorowe tempta­cyon, and Adam ete hit also thorowe temptacyon / and Iudas bytrayed Chryste also thorow temptacyon: so tha­postels fell from theyr faythe, and l [...]ste it, and all thorowe B temptacyon. Let Tyndale excuse euery synne that cōmeth of temptacyon / and whose synne shall he leaue vnexcused, excepte peraduenture the deuyll.

But the synne of men standeth in thys, that they breke the commaundement of god, in that they do nat as he byd­deth them, stryue and resyste the temptacyon. whyche tyll they cease to do, if they truste in god and call helpe of hys grace / there can no temptacyon be so great that it can ouer come them / as wytnesseth our lorde by the mouthe of saynt Poule: God is faythefull,1 [...] Corinth. [...]. whiche suffreth you nat to be tempted aboue that ye may bere / but gyueth with y temp­tacyon awaye out that ye may well wyelde it.

But let Tyndale say for excuse of their synne what him lyste / whyche thoughe thoccasyons and circumstaunces C may minysshe or aggreue, and so may theyrs be lesse gre­uous than the synnes of some other / and the synne of some one of thē selfe also lesse than another of his owne felowes: yet shall Tyndale neuer make it good, but that whan he sayeth they coulde nat beleue, if he saye true, the lacke of theyr belefe was a greuons synne.

For where as Tyndale wolde seme to saye well for the apostels, in that he sayeth they wold fayne haue dyed with our sauyour, sauynge for the feare of theyr owne dethe: Christe had before forbyden them suche feare of temporall dethe vpon the payne of eternall dethe, whan he sayd vnto them, feare ye nat them that kyll the body / whiche whanne they haue kylled the body haue nothynge that they can do more. But I shall shewe you whom you shall feare. Feare [Page cliiii] you hym whiche whan he hathe kylled the body, hathe the A power to caste the soule into the fyre of hell. And in ano­ther place he tolde them accordyng to the same, who so will saue hys soule in this worlde,Iohā. 12 shall lese it / And who so shal lese hys soule in thys worlde, kepeth it styll for the euer­lastynge lyfe. And fynally to shewe theym that all these wordes moost proprely perteyned to the puttynge away of that fere of dethe, by whiche folke for feare of dethe wolde forbere and refuse to dye for hym and his faythe: he [...]ayde the wordes whiche I before remembred, who so denye me before men,Matthei. 10. I shall denye him also before my father whiche is in heuen.

And therfore Tyndale in vayne goeth about to excuse the synne of Christes apostels, which they rather will haue knowen, and the great mercy of god therwith / and ther­fore B they wryte it them selfe. & the rebukes therewith that our sauyour gaue them therfore / to thende that we shulde bothe beware of fallynge in the lyke, and yet if it in oure owne defaute misfortune vs to fall, nat dispayre therfore, but repent and aryse with goddes helpe as they dyd / and than shall he forgyue vs as he forgaue theym. And thys wolde rather Christes blessed apostels y Tyndale shulde tell vs truthe, than vnder pretexte of theyr excuse, teche vs false heresyes / and make vs wene that vpon temptacyon to forsake our sauyour for feare of temporall dethe, were no dedely synne. wherof oure sauyoure hym selfe as ye se techeth vs playne the contrary / and wyll nat admytte for vs I feare me, the excuse of Tyndale for thapostles, if we come and say, By my faythe good lorde I was a ferde and C so forgate all that euer thou taughtest me.

Howe be it that they synne nat in lesyng of theyr fayth, I lette no man to beleue Tyndale, whan sa euer he proue hym selfe more credyble than Christe. But here ye se that as I tolde you that they loste theyr faythe in dede / Tyn­dale proueth vs after his maner in his fore rehersed wor­des, wherein he sayeth nay.

And yet is the man of so good remembraunce, and so good hede taketh where aboute he goeth, that forthwith in his nexte wordes after he sayeth very playnly more and more, that they coulde nat beleue the resurrection / and ex­cuseth them thus, that for all that they hated hym nat in theyr harte. Lo thus he sayeth.

A Tyndale.
[Page clv]

Howe be it there was none of theym that was fallen in hys harte frome Christe.

More.

who can more plainly say that they were fallen from the faythe and lacked the belefe, than Tyndale sayeth here? For thoughe he sayeth that none of them was in his harte fallen from Christ / yet he sayeth they coulde nat beleue the substancyall artycle of the fayth of Christ, that is to wytte the belefe of his resurreccion / without the belefe wherof all the remanaunt wolde nat than serue them to saluacyon.

And that they beleued nat that artycle, Tyndale here sayeth expressely. For he sayeth that thoughe they ran to the sepulchre, and wolde fayne haue beleued that he was B rysen / yet they coulde nat beleue it / the wounde of theyr temptacyon was so greate, that they coulde nat beleue it at the prechynge of a woman, without any other myracle. Than aske I no more but thys tale of Tyndale. For if they coulde [...] nat beleue, than dyd they nat beleue / and so lacked they than the belefe. For as for that they came therto agayne, and that Iosephe of Arimath [...]a,Iohā. 19. and Ny­chodemus, and the wo [...]en came afterwarde to strength & boldenesse,Lucae. 24. and that hys two discyples towarde Emaus burned in theyr brestes to here speke of hym: all this ma­keth to Tyndales purpose in this poynte nat the value of a poyntes ende. For we speke of his apostels, in the tyme in whiche him selfe sayeth here they beleued nat, nor coulde beleue it. At that tyme say I, y syth they than beleued nat, C as they dyd nat if they coulde nat, they than had for that whyle the lacke of the faythe.

And also to what purpose telleth Tyndale vs, that they coulde nat beleue at the bare prechynge of the woman? As thoughe they were nothynge to blame for that, bycause they were but women / whan the apostels them selfe kn [...]we these women for suche, as they were worthy more credence some one of them than some many men.

And for to excuse the apostels in the lacke of belefe, by­cause the messyngers were but women / Tyndale dothe therein no more but lay lacke and ouersyght in oure sauy­our, that in a thynge that he wolde haue beleued, sent out suche women on his myssage.

But Tyndale woteth well if he beleue the gospell, that [Page clvi] no more they dyd whan they sawe the myracle of hym selfe A commyng in before them the dores beynge shette, and spe­kynge vnto them / but were so farre fro the belefe of his re­surreccion at the fyrste, that they had went that he had ben some spirite, tyll he nat onely preched to them, but also rea­soned with them there vpon.

Nor yet saynte Thomas, whiche as Tyndale sayeth coulde nat beleue tyll he sawe Chryste / neyther dyd beleue the woman nor all his awne felowes, nor our sauyour him selfe vpon the syght neyther, tyll he felt him fully, and put hys fynger in his syde. And this he dyd of stoberne stan­dynge in his mysse belefe / in that after his belefe lackinge, he went nat about to seke the truthe, and endeuoure hym selfe to beleue them that tolde him the trouthe / but as it se­meth by the gospell, obstinately stode in his distruste, and B sayd tyll he dyd (that he thought of lykelyhede he neuer shuld) that is to wytte tyll he felte hym and put his fynger into his woundes, he wolde neuer beleue it.

And I saye plainly, who so euer beynge enfourmed of any artycle of the faythe whiche god byndeth vs to beleue, beleueth it nat / the cause why he beleueth nat is nat by­cause he can nat, but bycause he wyll nat. For if he wolde do the thynge whiche Tyndale taketh for foly, that is to wytte nat resyste but endeuour hym selfe to submytte hys reason vnto faythe, with askynge helpe of god for the for­theraunce of his imperfeccion / he thus doynge hys parte, god wolde I say nat fayle on his parte agayne, but wolde effectually worke with hym to perfyte in hym the faythe in whyche he preuenteth hym by g [...]ace / whyche preuencyon C was whan he gaue hym the grace and occasyon to be fyrst tolde of the mater.

But euer cometh Tyndale by degrees / & euer he seeth hym selfe lykely to be dreuen fro steppe to steppe. And therfore where he sayd yt the elec [...]e can nat synne dedely / fyrste he alledgeth for the cause therof that he synneth neuer, but vpon great occasyons. And seynge that a man may therto say what than? He goeth to another steppe, and saieth that he neuer consenteth to synne. And than seynge that steppe wyll nat be defended / he goeth to another, and sayeth he consenteth nat to synne to serue it. And perceyuynge that he can nat stande sure there / he steppeth downe to ye nexte, and sayeth that he casteth nat of from his necke the yoke of [Page clvii] A of loue toward the law of god. And yet perceyuynge y that steppe wyll not holde hym neyther / he cometh at laste vnto a nother steppe, and sayth he casteth it not of malycyously / trustynge bycause we can not loke into the mannes breste, to se whyther he bare any malyce therin, we shold neuer be able to conuycte hym of that worde, when he put on ys ther to malycyously. And yet from ye steppe haue I dreuen hym / & therin haue I begyled his hope, as ye before haue herde in the synnes of king Dauid, by the wordes of god spoken by the mouth of Nathan the prophete.

Now as he played there / so playeth he by the apostles here. For fyrste he sayth they lost neuer the fayth, bycause they were amased, & then astonyed, and then aferde, & th [...]n bycause they coulde not perceyue the thynge for poss [...]ble. B Ans yet at last he cometh so nere to the grauntynge yt they lacked it, yt by playne wordes at length he sayth the same thyng hym selfe / affermyng yt they byleued not nor coulde not byleue. And yet wolde he now make vs wene, that though they byleued not, yet had they no lacke of the fayth / bycause in the lacke of theyr bylyefe they hadde no malice. And that thynge he proueth thus.

Tyndale.

There was none of them that euer [...]aysed on hym, and came so farre f [...]rth [...]o say he was a deceyue [...], and wrought with the deuyls cra [...]te all this whyle, & se wherunto he is come in the en [...]e, we defye hym false wret [...]he that he was and his false doctri [...]e also. And therunto music they haue com [...] at the las [...]e, when feare, sorow, and wonderynge had ben pas [...]e, yf they had not [...]en p [...]e­uented and holpen in the meane season.

C More.

Lo good chrystē reders, here hath Tyndale taught vs, yt who so byleue not ye resurreccyō of Chryst / yet all y whyle he rayleth not vpō hym & calleth him wrech, & defieth him, he is saue inough. For all ye whyle though they byleue not, yet lacketh he not hys kylyef. And then if he be an [...]lecte [...] he shalbe preuented of god, & holpen before, ere euer he fall in to suche blasphemy. But & yf he be a reprobate / then whan he cometh onys into ye case that ye apostles were in as Tin­dale sayth / he shall for lacke of suche preuencyon & helpe, fall i [...]to suche raylyng and blasphemye / & then is he reme­dylesse he sayth. And therfore sayth he bothe here and in dyuerse places, that the seed of god preu [...]nteth alwaye, and kepeth & preserueth the electes from fallynge into ye case.

[Page clviii]Here is a goodly tale be ye sure. But now wherby shall A Tyndale of thys doctryne make vs sure?

The gospell to begynne wyth for one pece, maketh vs sure of the contrary.

For therin we fynde that the traytoure Iudas, whyche was I wene as farre from the bylyefe of the resurreccyon as euer was saynt Thomas of Inde / came neuer yet vnto suche raylynge and blasphemynge of Chryst / as Tyndale sayth that the apostles bycause they byleued not, had they not ben by grace preuented, must nedes haue comen vnto.

For when he went about to make his bargayn, & bytray hym and sell hym / we fynde not that he called hym false wretche, nor no suche vylanouse word. And after we fynde that when he repented and brought agayne the money, he was farre from raylynge vppon hym, and sayed I haue B offended god in bytrayenge the ryghtuouse blode. And su­rely though he had at the sellyng rayled as mych vpon him toward hys passyō, as Tyndale in hys bokes now rayleth & iesteth vpon hym in the blessed sacrament after hys resurreccyon: yet dare I be bolde vpon hys mercy to say, that yf that olde Iudas in his repentaūce, had with the loking vppon hys own synne loked also vpō the great mercy of god / and also that yf Tyndale now thys new Iudas wyll repēt hys raylynge agaynst Chrystes blessed body the sacramēt of the awlter, & aske our lord mercy therfore: both the tone sholde haue had, & the tother shall haue, remyssyon and forgyuenes of that dedely synne wyth chaūge of hell into pur­gatory / into whych the tone in vayne now fayne wold, and the tother except he mende herafter shall as mych in vayne C wysshe to come.

Now Tyndale wyll peraduenture stycke vppon some sotle coniecture of hys owne and styffely bere vs in hande, that though it be not wryten in the gospell, yet dyd Iudas when he solde Chryste, speke of hym some blasphemouse wordes, & had opprobrouse lauguage agaynste hym / and that the blasphemy therof was the very cause why that he coulde neuer after by any repentaunce be forgyuen hys synne, and receyued agayne to grace.

If Tyndale thus tell vs, and wyll wene by thys waye to wynde out / we wyll for thys ones forgette to putte hym in mynde of hys owne rule, that we nede not byleue hym forther then he fyndeth in playne and euydent scrypture. [Page clix] A But we wyll tell hym then, that there is as great lyklyhed and somdele more to, that saynte Poule when after the re­surreccyon of Chryste, and the stonyng of saynt Stephen,Ac [...]uū. 9. persecuted and punysshed so cruelly the chrysten people / dyd rayle [...]nd blaspheme the name of Chryste, and hys doctryne, and myracles, and all that he taughte and dyd. And yet for all thys was he receyued after to grace & forgyue­nesse / & was after elected, ye and for the foresyghte of his repentaunce, chaunge, and penaunce, was a chosen vessell before god byfore the worlde was made / and hadde ones the ryghte bylyefe of lykelyhed, as myche as he was bounden to before the gospell preched, and then stode in state of grace / and yet was suffered thorow his owne fawte to fall therfro, by refusynge the gospell of Chryste, and after fell B in hatynge and persecutynge of hys name and doctryne / and not as it semeth wythout blasphemynge of hys name, his lyuynge, hys deth, hys doctryne, and his resurreccyon, and all that euer he dyd / and yet by repentaunce and pe­naunce receyued to fayth and to forgyuenesse agayne. And therfore nedeth not Tyndale to dyspayre, but that as euyll as he is, he maye yet repente and be forgyuen yf he wyll.

But by thys one ensāple of saynt Poule, are in ye meane whyle vtterly destroyed, not onely Tyndals wordes laste aboue rehersed / but ouer ye all this his hole chapyter of the order of our eleccyon / wherof the hole purpose is in effecte, that god kepeth them euer from all dedely synne.

And thus good reders ye se how well he defendeth the C apostles fayth, whyche he sayth they neuer lost at no tyme / and yet confesseth hym selfe that at one tyme they neyther byleued nor coude byleue. And yet whyle they byleued not, they lost not theyr bylyefe bycause they rayleth not / and bycause that after they came agayne to bylyefe, therfore they lacked it not at any tyme before it came.

Is not here good reders a wyse and well tolde tale? It is inough for me, that how so euer Tyndale excuse theyr mystruste and vnbylyefe / I se them selfe wryte, that our sauyour him selfe accused it,Maici. 16 and rebuked thē sore of theyr incredulyte and harde harte, for that they had not byleued them that they hadde sene hym ryse. And now that Tyn­dale hath so wysely defended them all / he cometh partyca­larly to saynt Peter and sayth.

Tyndale.A
[Page clx]

Ye and Peter as soone as he had denyed Chryste / came to hym selfe imme­dyately, and went out and wepte bytterly for sorowe. And thus we se that Peters fayth fayled not, though it were oppressed for a tyme.

More.

Tyndale euer laboreth to lede vs a myle fro the mater. For well ye wote the chyrche techeth not, nor no man was there euer any where so madde to saye, that the chosen and electes do dye in dedely synne / but that they somtyme do dedely synnes / that is to wytte, such synnes as yf they dyed in them wythout repentaūce of them, they sholde be damp­ned for them.

Agaynste thys doctryne of the catholyke chyrch / taketh Tyndale in hande to proue vs, as well by dyuers other tytles of thys boke, and by hys exposycyon vppon the fyrste B pystle of saynt Iohn̄, as by all the processe of thys hys pre­sent chapyter of the order of theyr eleccyon / that the electes neuer do no dedely synnes. That is ye wote well as myche to say, as that they do no suche synnes / whych done in such maner as they do them, be of theyr nature dedely / that is to saye suche as yf the person that doth them dye before he re­pent them, he sholde be dampned for them.

Now good chrysten reders the poynte consydered that is in debate bytwene vs / ye perceyue very well that eyther muste Tyndale take and vnderstande dedely synne, for some other thynge and in some other maner then all other men do, and otherwyse then it is taken and vnderstanden by ye catholyke chyrch of Chryst agaynste which he dyspu­teth / whych maner of hys dysputacyō yf he otherwyse toke C it then hys aduersaryes do, were on hys parte to shamefull and folysshe, as euery man well seeth y any lernyng hath / for then dysputed he but vppon the worde and not vppon the mater, whyche he wyll not I wene for very shame be so madde to do: or ellys yf he take I saye thys worde dedely synne as in dede he must nedes do, thā do you good reders I dowt [...] not very well and clerely se, that Tyndals tale of saynte Peter hys repentaunce and sorowe after hys deny­nyenge of Chryste, nothynge proueth Tyndales purpose / whyche is and muste be that saynt Peter before hys repen­taunce, synned not dedely at the tyme when he forswore Chryste.

For Tyndale yf he wyll proue that he dyd therin no de­dely [Page clxi] A synne at the tyme / it is nat inoughe for hym to tell vs that he repented after, and was by repentaunce restored to the state of saluacyon. But he muste proue vs that his for­swerynge of our sauiour, yet shulde nat haue letted hym from saluacyon, all thoughe he had forthwith vpon that dede deceased without repentaunce, or any remembraunce after of that synne.

This shulde he proue vs ye wote well / & this ye se well he dissembleth. And to proue that saynte Peter synned nat dedely before / he telleth vs that he repented after. whyche is the very thynge wherby it is declared in holy scrypture, that his synne was greuous. For what was the thinge he so repented / but the synne of his denyenge. And therfore ye more sorowfully that he repented it, the more bytterly that B he be wepte and bewayled it, the more payne that he toke for it / the more hym selfe sheweth vs the sore offence a [...]d heynous dedelynes therof.

And nowe commeth Tyndale on the tother syde / and by the selfe same sorowe, wolde make men wene it was no dedely synne / by whyche it specially dothe appere the con­trarye.

And than thus handelynge the matter, he is nat asha­med to tell vs in conclusyon, that we nowe se by this wyse reason, that saynt Peter his faythe fayled nat. whereof he hathe as ye se proued vs nothynge / but hathe hym selfe tolde vs by playne expresse wordes the contrarye, whan he tolde vs that thapostles coulde nat for all ye womens wor­des, beleue that Christ was rysen / nor well in a good while C after, at the syght of our sauyour hym selfe.

Howe be it all thys he sayeth was no faylynge of Pe­ters faythe, but an oppressynge for the whyle / as thoughe I or any man elles had any tyme sayde that Peters fayth feyled for euer.

I say that it fayled for the whyle, not for euer. And yet sayd I no ferther in my dialoge therof, but that his liuely faythe fayled for ye whyle, bycause it wrought nat by loue. But if his belefe stode styll / it was a bare belefe, barayne of the frute of charyte / with whiche it wroughte nat in the harte, whan it brought nat forthe the confessyon of Christe by the mouthe.

But mary Tindale hath sayd yet more / and hath taken away from hym boldely bothe quicke fayth and dede faith [Page clxii] and all as for the whyle.A

In whyche poynt whan Tyndale hath all done / he can neuer whyle he lyueth auoyde it, but that in sayenge that there was a tyme in whyche the apostels coulde nat byleue that Christe was arysen agayne, he is agreed with vs as for the matter. For in those wordes he confesseth, that in that tyme theyr faythe was fallen from them. But he stry­ueth styll with vs vpon the worde, & wyll in no wyse haue that fall called faylynge, but amasyng and astonyenge vp­on great occasyons, & with the great burden oppressynge.

well than sythe we be metely well agreed together, Tyndale and I in the matter / we wyll for thys ones no lenger debate about a worde, and styll dyspute all daye, whether fallynge may be called fayling. But I am content to gyue it ouer, and lette Tyndale haue hys wyll, & abyde thereby B styll / that thoughe saynt Peter dyd fall and his faythe to, yet shall nat Tyndale be bounden to call that fallyng fay­lynge / but amasynge yf he lyste, or estonyenge vpon great occasyons and by sore burden oppressynge.

And in lyke wyse am I content, that yf vpon great oc­casyon of a longe wery way, with a depe myre and a great blocke in the botome, Tyndals horse happen vnder hym fyrste to snappre and stumble, and after that faynt and fall downe in the myre and tumble, and his mayster & he there lye to gether and iumble, tyll some good felowe helpe them vppe and brynge them to an inne, where they tary together tyll the horse be with mete and reste better growen in hart: let Tyndall for me whan he rydeth agayne, call his fall no faylynge nor no fallynge neyther. But yet shall he neuer C let other men to call it as it is.

Nowe Tyndale yet after hys fowle falle, dissymulyng hys ouerthrowe as thoughe no man sawe it / ryally tryum­pheth and bosteth in this matter, that he hathe in hys cha­pyter of the ordre of eleccion, so wel and wysely quytte him selfe so lyke a pretye man. For ioye and glorye whereof, he fynyssheth hys chapyter with a pleasaunte proper taunt, wherin he taunteth me.

Tyndale.

Therfore we nede to seke no gloses for the texte, that Chryst sayde to Peter howe that hys faythe shulde nat fayle. Yes sayeth mayster More, it fayled in hym selfe, but was reserued in our lady. But lette vs se the text and theyr glose together. Chrys [...] sayeth Luke the .xxii. Symon Symon, [Page cliii] A Sathan seketh you to sy [...]te you as men syfte whete. But I haue prayed for the that thy faythe shall nat fayle. wherfore whan thou arte come vn­to thy selfe agayne, strengthe thy bretherne. Nowe put thys wyse glose therto, and se howe they agre to gether: Symon, Sathan seketh to sy [...]te you as [...]hete / but I haue praye [...] for the that my mothers faythe shall nat fay [...]e. wherfore whan thou arte come to thy selfe agayne, accordynge as my pray­our hathe obtayned for the that my mothers faythe shall nat fayle, strength thy bretherne. Howe say ye is nat thys a proper texte and well framed to gether? do ye nat thynke that there is as moche wytte in the hede of madde Colyns, as in the braynes of suche expositours.

More.

Tyndall here good reder felynge his matter very fayn [...] and feble, and that by reason, scrypture, or other good au­thoryte, he neyther can impugne his aduersary nor defēde B him selfe / wolde very fayne walke away thus without any pece of his purpose prouyd, and make men wene all were wonne with his mery scoffe.

Howe be it if Tyndale had here rehersed you my very wordes of my Dyaloge, as I am in suche cases wonte to reherse his / it wolde (and that he sawe well) haue made his quycke mery scoffe waxe very dulle and more thanne halfe dede / as ye shall well perceyue I truste, whan I come to that place in the replyenge to hys seuerall answeres made vnto the chapyters of my sayde worke. whervnto I shall reserue the substaunce of myne answere to thys wyse cauellacyon of hys, agaynste myne exposicyon and bettre mens to than myne, of those wordes of our sauiour spoken vnto saynte Peter, I haue prayed for the that thy faythe C shall nat fayle.

But where as he can in no wyse beare the comen opy­nyon of good Chrysten people, that the faythe abode at any tyme onely in our lady / and therfore mocketh and ma­keth a gaye game, that saynt Peters faythe shulde be pre­serued in our lady, and that her fayth shulde be his faythe: I wene it wyll be no very great sotell thynge to perceyue, that the faythe whyche saynt Peter confessed, may bothe be his owne in that he confessed it, and yet our ladyes to in y she beleued it / and the thynge also beleued, is all one bothe in hym and in her / sauynge that it is hers in that she bele­ueth it, and hys in that he byleueth it. And yet if he loste y belefe therof, it may be called styll his / vnderstandynge by that spekynge, that he fyrste confessed it. And therfore in [Page clxiiii] good faythe I can nat well se, wherfore we may nat saye A saynt Peters faythe was in our lady, as well as we maye say wyclyffes heresyes are in Tyndall.

And therfore, where for the saltynge and seasonynge of his vnsauery scoffe, he chaungeth and mysse reherseth my wordes, and the very wordes of Chrystes gospell to / and hathe a pleasure to playe betwene our lady and saynte Peter, and to tosse the faythe lyke a tenys ball frome the tone to the tother, with fonde wordes of hys owne folisshe framynge, nothynge nere to the matter whan the place in my dyaloge shalbe as it shall ones be by goddes grace, surely sene and examyned: I truste to make you than se, that all his propre sportynge wherin he playeth his page­aunte betwene saynt Peter and our lady, may for any wyt hit hathe, serue hym for a pastyme, if he satte saddely by B frantycke Colyns and pyked rysshes in Betheleem. And happy were Tyndale, yf he were as well recouered of his fransyes, as I truste in god Colyns is at this day of hys.

But yet reseruynge as I say y farther answere to myne other place, to which this mater moche more apꝑtayneth: yet syth Tyndale sayeth here hym selfe that the cause why no suche glose nedeth to those wordes of oure sauyour, is bycause that saynt Peters faythe neuer fayled in his owne persone / he confesseth thereby that if it euer at any tyme fayled in his person, than at the le [...]te wyse some glose there nedeth. And than dare I be bolde to say, that if there any nede / the glose thā that he mocketh let him reherse it right, is suche as he wyll nat thys fyue yere fynde a better.

But leauynge that glose as I say, tyll I come to my C dyaloge: yet to se in the meane whyle whether any glose neded or none, syth Tyndale agreeth that there neded if y faythe at any tyme fayled in saynt Peter / I shall nat lette for his pleasure ones agayne to serche, whether the faythe at any tyme fayled in saynt Peter or no.

And to thentent that we may deale well and playnly to gether / let hym & me fyrste agre to gether, what the thinge is whervpon we dispute. For he vseth often whan he is conuycted, to say that he toke thys worde or that worde o­therwyse than we take hym therein.

Let vs therfore fyrste, bycause we speke of faythe, here hym declare what hym selfe calleth faythe.

To thys after that he sawe hym selfe shamefully con­futed, [Page clxv] A concernynge hys heresye of fayth alone suffycyent for saluacyon / he sayth that he calleth not a dede fayth any fayth / but he meaneth all waye by fayth, a very chrysten fayth that hath the loue therwyth, by reason wherof it can not but worke well.

Now shall ye se how courteysely that I shall handle Tyndale. For all be it ye se well that I myghte by many meanes and many playne authorytees,Iacobi. 2. as well of saynte Iamys as saynte Poule, and the very gospell to,1. Corinth. 13. conuycte hym in that poynte / as I haue often done all redy:Gala. 5. yet shall I for hys pleasure lette all that passe for thys tyme,Matth. 2 [...]. and take fayth as he sayth he taketh it hym selfe.

But then aske I Tyndale thys tyme, whyther that in the tyme in whyche Peter forsoke and forswore Chryst, B he dyd byleue wyth suche a bylyefe, that then wroughte well wyth loue. If he saye ye / then syth the worke that he then wroughte was the forsakynge and forswerynge of Chryste, it muste nedes folowe that he sayth, that the for­sakynge and forswerynge of Chryste was a good worke. And then wyll it theruppon folow, that syth saynte Peter wepte sorowfully therfore, he was vere sory and sore repented hym that he hadde well wroughte wyth loue, and done a good worke. So that I se no remedy, but that Tyndale muste nedes, be he neuer so loth, confesse and graunth vs, that saynt Peter in that tyme dyd not byleue wyth loue y wrought well.

Now thynketh me than that bytwene Tyndale and me there lacketh now but one thynge / and that is what we call C faylynge. For the better perceyuynge wherof I wyll aske Tyndale thys.

If saynt Peter had holde on styll in that forsakyng and that periury styll all hys lyfe, & so fynally dyed therin, and had yet for all that all the whyle byleued in hys herte all the artycles of ye trew fayth, & the cōtrary of all yt he sayd, & not onely rayled no thyng all ye whyle agaynst Chryst, but also loued hym to, sauyng not so well but yt he wold rather for­swere yt euer he sawe hym, then to suffer payne & sorow for hym: I aske I say of Tyndale, yf saynt Peter had conty­nued his lyfe & dyed in this state, had not then at no tyme in his lyfe his fayth yt Tindale calleth fayth, yt is to say his bylefe with well workyng loue fayled hym? yf he say no / thē wyll it folow vpō Tindals word, yt there may be many [Page clxvi] faythfull folke wyth a well workynge loue, eternally A dampned in hell / excepte it be false that our sauyour sayth, He that denyeth me before the worlde, I wyll denye hym before the angels of god / and he that wyll saue hys lyfe,Lucae. 12. in thys worlde shall lese it.Ma [...]ci. 8.

The moste parte I suppose that of the chrysten people shall be dampned / the cause of theyr dampnacyon shall be, that where as they byleue ryght and loue god also, so farre forth as he wyll let them liue as they lyst and make mery, and bynde theym to nothynge that they haue no lust to do / loue hym not yet so suffycyentely, as for the loue that they bere hym, they wyll rather forbere the pleasours of theyr lyfe / and also rather dye then dedely to dysplease hym, by the doynge of any suche thynge as he wyll rather that they shall dye then do it.B

Now se I therfore no remedy, but that Tyndale muste nedes agre, that yf saynt Peter had in such state lyued and dyed / hys fayth well workynge by loue had fayled hym.

Then syth it hadde then in sometyme at the leste wyse fayled hym / lette vs deuyde that tyme of that state of hys from hys fyrste denye [...]ge and forswerynge, vnto the very minute of hys dyenge, supposynge to contynue styll and dye to in the same state, into fyue egall partes yf it please hym / and then haue we fyue tymes all of one fasshyon / to whyche fyue tymes Tyndale yf it please hym maye gyue names to, and call them A, B, C, D, E.

Now saye I than, syth Tyndale muste nedes agre yt n [...] some of these fyue tymes Peters fayth fayled / I aske in whyche of them. wherto syth they be all fyue of one fashyō C concernynge hys fayth, he muste nedes graunte that in all fyue it fayled hym.

Let vs now then somwhat chaunge our case, from that that myghte haue ben in to that that was in dede. And af­ter that Peters fayth had fayled in the thre fyrste tymes, that is to saye those that are named ABC partes of the hole tyme, wherof ABCDE were all the partes / lette vs put, that in the fourth parte [...]hyche we called D, Peter re [...]ented by helpe of goddes gr [...]ce, thorow ye meane of Chry­stes foresayde prayoure / and th [...]t hys l [...]ynge bylyefe so came to hym agayne in that [...]yme why [...]h we [...]lled D / and that he wolde euer after [...]ather suffer tenne tymes to dye, then onys to forsake god agayne.

[Page clxvii] A Now aske I Tyndale whether y not faylynge of his fayth now in the latter partes of hys tyme, yt is to wyt in D & E / doth now make it trewe that hys fayth fayleth hym not be­fore, whyle it fayled hym in dede in the thre formar tymes ABC the thre partes of hys hole tyme ABCDE.

Now what Tyndale must nedes answere vnto thys, he can tell well inough I warraunt, when he loketh in hys carde vpon those letters in hys crosse rowe. For there he muste nedes se, that though hys fayth fayleth neuer after whyle it fayled not / yet before whyle it fayled, it [...]ayled ꝑde. wherof the prefe is so playne vppon hys crosse row that he muste nedes se it.

Now yf Tyndale wolde wynk at these letters lyke a wanton ladde that no man coulde make hym loke vp: yet B shall I shew you that he hath redde them all redy, & spyed full well that Peter synned dedely / & lyke a shrewed wyly lad hath scraped it out of hys boke.

For ye wote well that in those wordes of our sauyoure vnto saynt Peter, he sayth vnto hym: And thou after that thou shalt be conuerted, conferme thou and make stronge thy bretherne. As though he myght say, I haue prayed for the that thy fayth shall not fynally fayle. But though it [...]ayle for a tyme by forsakynge of me, as I tell the tru [...]ly thou shalt thryes do ere the cocke crow / yet shall it come in to the agayne, by the meane of my prayour. And therfore when thou shalt be conuerted agayn, that is to wytte after that thy lyuely fayth fallen and faylynge for the tyme, and thou therby turned fro me to my enemy thorow forsakyng C & forswerynge me, for dedely synfull drede of bodyly deth / after this [...]en thou shalt I say by myne helpe and meane of my prayour, wyth applyenge of thyne owne wyll there­wyth, haue gotten grace and repented, and attayned they fayth agayne, and be thy sel [...]e conuerted and turned from myne enemye vnto me agayne / then do thou conferme and strength thy bretherne.

Now se for goddes sake where Tyndale hath scraped out and altered one worde / in whyche one worde standeth the makynge and marrynge of all the hole mater.

For where as our sauyour sayed, when thou arte onys conuerted, then strength thou thy bretherne / Tyndale put­teth out cūuerted, and maketh our sauyour say, when thou art come to thy self agayn, then strength thou thy brethern.

[Page clxviii]And [...]here as he in hys translacyon hadde put in thys A worde conuerted / yet bycause he sayed here before in thys chapyt [...]r, that the apostles we [...]e not by faylynge of theyr fayth, nor by any dede [...]y synne turned in any wyse at any tyme from god / but were onely a [...]sed and astonyed and paste all remembraunce: therfore he [...]w hath put out here thys worde conuerted, whyche syg [...]yfyeth a turny [...]ge to god, and therin doth euer imply a turnynge awaye fro god before / & hath putt [...] in the stede ther [...]f these wordes, comen agayn to thy selfe / to make it agre wyth his other wordes, ama [...]ed, astonyed, an [...] forgettynge of them selfe, whyche hym selfe sayed of them before.

Now thys ye s [...] good reders very well, that though we g [...]aun [...] vnto Tyndale that a man may be turned to good, & turned to be bad, and turned to vertue, & turned to vice,B turned to god, and turned t [...] the deuyl to / yet where so euer in the scrypture that worde turned standeth so alone, it is euer taken for turnynge vnto god. And specyally the word conuerted, whyche is the worde yt he hath chaunged / wher so euer in scrypture it so standeth a lone, is neuer taken for turnynge of a man vnto hym s [...]lfe but vnto god. For in turnynge to hym selfe, he maye turne from god vnto y deuyll / as Lucyfer by turnynge to hym selfe, turned to the deuyll.

And now ye se that Tyndale to make the gospell seme to agre wyth hys heresye, chaungeth in his exposycyon the very chyefe effectuall worde, wherupon the pyth of all the mater hangeth. I wyll not therfore aske ye now y question that Tyndale doth, whyther ye thynke not as myche wytte in the hed of madde Colyns as in the bray [...]es of suche an C exposytour. But oat of questyon, I wene [...]wyse men thynke that the same deuyll or his mate that made Colyns madde / hath sucked out the bray [...] of thys exposytoure, & blowen hys empty scalpe full of bysy frantyke heresyes.

For elles wolde he neuer for shame speke of that folyshe heresye, that none electe at any tyme dothe dedely synne / whyche thynge he seeth so playnely reproued by the scryp­ture / and excepte a very [...]ew heretykes, ellys, by the agre­ment I wene of all the hole people of the worlde both chry­sten and hethen to, as many as byleue the soule to be im­mort [...]

And yet is it a better sporte to se, howe in the very point in whyche he weneth hym selfe to deale the mooste wylyly, [Page clxix] A therein vttereth he hys foly moste folysshely.

For where as all hys purpose of thys chapyter of the ordre of our eleccyon, is onely to proue that none electe at any tyme synneth dedely: euen in the very laste ende there of [...] where he weneth leste, where he weneth him selfe to sytte surest in the chayre of his gloryous tryumphe, and mooste merely mocketh and scoffeth at hys aduersary / euen there in his false exposicyō of this text of scrypture, And thou be­ynge ones conuerted confirme and strength thy bretherne / by hys vnwyse wyly chaunge of this worde conuerted in to, comen to hym selfe / he is fallen from hym selfe and per­ceyued nat that he that chaunge hath made euery man wel perceyue, that hym selfe whan he so chaunged that worde perceyued very well, that the worde conuerted, that is to B god turned agayne, proued clerely that saynte Peter was o [...]es from god auerted, and synfully turned away. And therfore hathe he by that wylye chaunge, euen in the very laste ende of hys chapyter, with hys owne wytnes agaynst his owne purpose, all his whole matter peruerted, & quyte ouer turned and ouer throwen hys tryumphant charyotte / and with the very wordes of his mery mocke, layed all his matter in the myre.

¶ The recapitilacyon of all Tyndalles processe con­cernynge the churche, from the be­gynnynge hytherto.

C FOr nowe shall you good reders vnder­stande, that as concernynge hys decla­racyon what is the churche, here hys whole processe endeth. And wyllynge that we shulde nowe wene, that he had well declared and proued vs whyche is the very churche: he nowe begynneth after this chapiter another newe mater / that is to wytte to proue that the comen knowen catholyke churche, is nat the churche.

And therfore sythe here is an ende of his owne part / it is necessary that we brefely gather to gether and consyder, what thynge he hath proued vs therein, or at the leste (for proued hathe he nothynge) what thynge he hathe tolde vs therein from the begy [...]nynge hytherto.

[Page clxx]Remembre fyrste good reders, that the occasyon of hys A boke, is for answere of my dyaloge / wherein I speke of the churche, by whiche we be and muste be taught and en­formed. And I shewe there that it is the comen knowen catholyke churche of all christen people, neyther gone out nor put out / and that the doctryne of this churche is sure, & can nat erre in any thynge necessary to saluacyon. whyche thynge I there sufficyently do proue.

Nowe commeth Tyndall, to teche vs that the churche is another churche whiche he wyll shewe you, and nat the churche that [...] I tolde yo [...]. And whether the churche that he sheweth you can erre or nat, he wyll tell you. And therfore he maketh the tytle of thys boke, what is the churche, and whether it may erre or nat / wherein harken well nowe what he hathe hytherto taught you.B

Fyrste he tolde vs in the begynnynge, that thys worde churche hathe dyuers significacyons / amonge whyche at laste he bethought him vpon twayne. One a generall sig­nificacyons, by whiche it is taken for all that embrace the name of Chryste, though [...] theyr faythes be noughte, or thoughe they haue no faythe at all.

A nother, by whiche it specially signifyeth onely the e­lectes / in whose hartes god hathe wrytten hys lawe with his holy spiryte, and gy [...]en them a felynge faythe of the mercy that is in Christe Iesu our lorde.

All hys other signifycacyons I lette passe, as thynges nat properly pertaynynge to this present questyon of the catholyke churche / excepte onely that whyche he hathe also diffined false, that is to wytte the pertyculer churches of C euery chrysten countrey / whiche be nat as Tyndall there taketh them, all the people in the towne or the countrey chrysten or hethen or open professed heretykes, but onely suche as are the partes of the catholyke churche.

But in all his declaracyons of all the signifycacyons / he hathe as ye haue sene in my fyrste parte of thys worke, neyther rehersed them all, nor taken [...]yght almost any one of these that he hathe rehersed.

For lettynge as I say the remenaunte passe as nowe nat pertinent proprely to this matter, & reproued in myne fyr [...]te parte [...]f this worke: of these two laste significacions hathe he done hys parte in neyther nother / but hathe as I there shewed, lyfte out the chefe significacyons of all, [Page clxxi] A and whervpon all the matter moste especially dependeth / that is to wytte the catholyke church of Christ of all trewe christen people.

For as touchynge the fyrste of hys two laste, if he wyll say that he ment that for the catholyke churche, than I say that he defamed it false. For the generall catholyke chur­che is nat the nombre of all y embrace the name of Christ, whether they haue faythe true or false, any faythe or none.

For heretykes suche as Luther is, and zwinglius, and wyclyffe, and hym selfe, that fyrste wylfully leaue and for­sake the catholyke church and the catholyke faythe therof, and be therfore after precyded and cut of there fro, and cast out therof / neyther be nor neuer haue bene accompted, ey­ther in the churche or of the churche / thoughe they styll call B them selfe christen men, and embrace hys name, castynge of the truthe of hys faythe and fyghtynge agaynste good workes by sectes dissoluynge the vnyte, and beynge sepa­rate from the socyetie of the catholyke churche.

Than as touchynge the seconde signifycacyon of the onely electes, whiche is the churche wherof he [...]abereth in all this worke / and wolde haue it onely taken for the chur­che of Christe milytaunte here in erthe: let vs consydre or­drely from the begyn [...]ynge to the ende, what he telleth vs therof, and to what wyse ende at laste he bryngeth all hys purpose.

Aft [...]r his defence of his translacyon very fondely de­fended, to proue vs that the churche is onely the nombre of electes / in whose har [...]es god hathe wrytten his lawe, & C gyuen them a felynge faythe of the mercy that is in Christ Iesu our lorde: he fyrste moueth a ques [...]yon of hys owne [...]euysynge, whether the worde were [...]efore the churche or the churche before the worde / as though that questyon had in suche wyse benne pu [...] by vs, and that we had affyrmed the churche to be before the word [...].

There with scoffes and mo [...]kes he concludeth agaynst vs, that the worde was before the churche / whereof neuer no man sayd the contrary.

But that the wrytten worde was before the churche, whiche was the thynge that him selfe had sayd and mente, and whiche e [...]er was an [...] is his princypall grounde and foundacyon, wherof we had sayd and yet say the contrary therof / in all that chapyter neyther any thyng proueth he, [Page clxxii] nor any thynge so moche as speketh. And so that chapyter A nothynge at all to purpose.

More ouer, sythe he bryngeth forthe that chapyter, for the profe that the onely electes be the churche, for there a­bout goeth all his matter / and well ye wote the worde of god bothe wrytten and vnwrytten, may be and is beleued bothe of the electes and of the nat elected: therfore is also that chapyter nothynge at all to purpose.

Fynally syth he speketh of the lawe wrytten by the spy­ryte of god in the harte / nowe sythe that lawe so wrytten there, is rather y worde of god vnwrytten, than his worde wrytten in the bokes of the scrypture that we haue / of whi­che wordes onely, Tyndale maketh all his matter, and ab­horreth euery worde that god wolde eyther speke or wryte besyde the scrypture that we haue all redy: this chapyter B of Tyndals nat onely nothynge maketh for his purpose, but also rather semeth greatly to make agaynste it.

Than goeth he forthe with his other chapyter, wherein he laboreth to proue that the apostels lefte nothynge vn­wrytten that were necessary to saluacyon / meanynge that we be bounden to beleue nothyng, but onely that that they haue wrytten / & that (as Tyndals mayster Martyn Lu­ther sayeth) euidently and plainly wrytten. wherin who so consyder what I haue answered hym / shall I truste well perceyue that it had bene better for hym to haue lefte that matter vntouched.

For bothe is his purpose on hys parte vnproued, and the contrary to hym proued / besyde that it is in many pla­ces proued, that the sacramentes whiche he reproueth be C wrytten in the scrypture in de [...].

Howe be it he cor [...]ecteth and amendeth therfore his doctryne of that chapiter, [...] another chapiter after. For where as in the former chapiter, he t [...]c [...]eth that we be bounden to beleue nothinge of necessyte, but onely that that is wrytten in the scrypture: yet [...]este we shulde be thereby concernyng our belefe, ouer [...]tely re [...]rayned of our euangelycall lybertie / he bethynketh hym selfe better / and in hys other chapyter after he techeth vs that we be nat of necessytie bounden to beleue all that neyther / but so that we beleue the promyses, we may be saued well inoughe he sayeth, be­leuynge nat other thynges wrytten euen in the very go­spell it selfe.

[Page clxxiii] A This is hys doctryne in his chapyter / where he techeth vs that the churche may erre and that yet it can nat erre / sauynge that sodeynly vnware he confesseth euen there the contrary.

Thanne commeth he forthe in hys chapyter with thys questyon, whether the churche can erre or nat. And there he fyrste sayeth, that thys comen knowen catholyke chur­che bothe may erre and dothe erre / and proueth it by hys bare worde. And than he sheweth what hym selfe calleth the electe church / and sayeth that it is the whole multytude of all repentynge synners that beleue in Chryste, and put all theyr truste and confydence in the mercy of god / felyng in theyr hartes that god for Christes sake loueth them, and wyll be or rather is mercyfull vnto theym, and forgyueth B theyr synnes of whyche they repente, and all the mocyons vnto synne, of whiche they feare that they shalbe drawen into synne agayne / and this they beleue and fele withoute any respecte of their owne deseruynge and onely for the re­specte of goddes trouthe and promyse.

Than goeth he forthe, and bosteth hyghly thys maner of felynge faythe that is heresyes in stede of faythe, as I haue in myne answere proued / and therein he spendeth vp that chapyter.

But yet thoughe he thus descrybe the electe churche: yet dothe he nat proue that this is the churche whyche we muste here and obeye. For god hathe commaunded vs to complayne to the churche, and here the churche, and obey the churche. And therfore though we agreed euery thyng C that he sayeth in his chapyter / he had yet sythe his electes are vnknowen, proued thereby no pece of hys pryncypall purpose, that is to wytte whiche is the churche.

Also where hys tytle of that chapyter is, whyther the chyrche maye erre: Tyndale sayenge that the catholyke chyrche maye erre / whyther the electe chyrche whyche hym selfe taketh for the chyrche maye erre or not, he sayth not in all that chapyter any one worde. And so is hys chapyter neyther any thynge towarde hys pryncypall purpose / nor yet, whyche is more shame for hym, any thynge conteyneth in it belongynge to the mater of the tytle.

Then cometh he forth wyth hys other chapyter that a trewe member of Chrystes chyrche synneth not, and is yet [Page clxxiiii] for all that a synner. whiche chapiter besydes that it is but A a fonde rydle, with nothynge but a hepe of folysshe here­syes as I haue proued: yet is it also towarde the mater, that is to wytte whiche is the churche, nothyng to the pur­pose at all / for as moche as thoughe he sayeth that they can do no dedely synne, yet he confesseth that they may do suche horryble dedes as muste nedes make them be taken for the chyldren of the deuyll.

After commeth his other goodly rydle, that a chrysten man can nat erre and howe he may yet erre. And therein he telleth vs as I haue before shewed you, yt the electes can nat erre in ye promyses of god / & as for all other errours, none can (he sayeth) be dampnable to theym, thoughe the contrary of theyr errour be wrytten in the very gospell.

By whiche doctryne of hys ye may se, that errours of B doctryne in maner of liuynge Tyndale taketh for a small matter, bycause they be no promyses of god. And therfore is Tyndale nat greatly to be beleued, whan he techeth vs that freres may wedde nonnes / bicause it is no promyse of god, but a promyse of the frere to the nonne, & of y nonne to the frere, eche of them wedded and bedded with other, and bothe twayne wedded and bedded with the deuyll.

yet ye se well that thys chapyter yf it were all as trew [...] as it is all false / proueth yet no thynge whyche is the chyr­che. where as he sholde fayste haue proued that the electes onely be the chyrch, and then after serche whyther they can erre or not.

Then cometh he forth wyth hys other chapyter [...] that the fayth whyche he hath before descrybed, is euer foughten C wythall. But in y electes it is in suche wyse inexpugnable, y whē they ones haue it, it cā neuer at any tyme after fayle.

Now this great conclusyon wherof he maketh this chapyter is such, that as ye se well therupon dependeth many greate maters. yet doth he not in all thys chapyter brynge forth any maner thynge for the profe, eyther reason, scryp­ture, or other authoryte / but onely by hys owne bare word, telleth vs that it is so. Now yf he tolde vs a thynge well knowen or comenly byleued, I sholde not blame hym. But now to tell vs suche a thynge so straunge, and vnto euery man saue hym selfe so inopynable, & such as no man wold wene were lykely to be trew, & byd vs so boldely byleue it, [Page clxxv] A and saue his owne bare wurshypfull word tell vs no cause why: it is eyther a poynt of a man more authorysed then an apostle, or ellys lesse wytted then a very fole.

Fynally cometh he forth at laste wyth hys chapyter, of whyche he calleth the maner & order of our eleccyon.

Therin he telleth vs concernynge electes, and y order of theyr chosyng, that god doth fyrste chose them, and after calleth them, & techeth them, & maketh theym se theyr dāp­nacyon in the lawe & mercy layed vp for them in hym, and what he wyll haue them do. And thē they chose god agayn & submytte them selfe to hys lawes to walke in them. And that thynge he sayth the man doth of necessyte, bycause his wyll can do none other / but hys wytte muste nedes se the thynges that god maketh hym se, & his wyll muste nedes B agre to folow so the thynge that hys wytte s [...]eth.

Then he telleth vs that the mercy of god allwaye way­teth vpon the electe / by reason wherof he can neuer so fall, but yt he shall ryse agayne. But yet he sheweth vs forther, that for all thys the electe synketh downe somtyme, & [...]al­leth into traunces and slepes, by whyche he forgeteth hym selfe, and then doth dyuers horryble & abomynable dedes in hys slepe. But yet in all hys horryble dedes he doth no dedely synne, bycause he doth them all of fraylte and infyr­myte, and none of them of purpose or wyllyngly. For wyl­lyngly can he not do them, bycause he lyeth a slepe / nor in all y whyle hys fayth neuer fayleth at any tyme. And thys he proueth vs by thensamples of kynge Dauyd, and saynt Peter, and saynt Thomas of Inde, and the other apostles. C For there was he sayth none of these that in all y euer we rede in the scrypture reproued in theyr dedes, as aduoutry manslaughter, not byleuyn [...], forsakyng, or forsweryng of god / y euer was any dedely synne yet, or any faylynge of fayth at any tyme whyle they dyd it. And thys he nothynge proueth but telleth, and loketh that for the wurshyp of hys bare worde, we sholde byleue it.

And here is all Tyndals hole tale, that he hath from the begynnynge hytherto tolde vs / wherby we sholde lerne of hym whyche is the chyrche, and whyther the chyrche maye erre or not. In all whych who so loke it thorow & myne an­swere therwith / shall well perceyue y he hath not in all his hole processe halfe a lefe to gyther nor almost halfe a lyne, without one great foly at y lest, or els a lye and an halfe.

[Page clxxvi]Consyder nowe that of hys electes, whyche is of hys A wordes mych a do to perceyue, they be so darke and so in­tryked of purpose wythout any dependence or order / yet in the ende when all is gathered to gyd [...]r and aduysed well, thys is the hole somme, that god choseth a certayne whom he lyketh. And when he choseth them Tyndale telleth not, whyther before the worlde made, or after them selfe borne. But vnto them he sendeth forth, & calleth them, & theym he gyueth a felynge fayth, wherby they fele surely that they shall be saued, wythout any regarde of good workes / and then they chose hym agayne, & agre to walke in his lawes. But before theyr felyng fayth had, they neuer ones thynke vppon hym.

For as for any endeuour of theym selfe at goddes good mocyon towarde the fayth, they do no more he sayth then B doth the chylde towarde the gettynge of hys owne father. And hys mercy wayteth euer vppon them. And theyr fayth doth neuer at any tyme fayle them / nor they do neuer sinne dedely, what horryble & abominable [...]edes so euer they do.

And syth these folke that are Tyndals electes, haue or wene they haue, suche a felynge fayth, that therby they fele or ellys wene they fele that they can not be dampned / but haue here lerned of Tyndale now, that what horryble de­des so euer they do, they can neuer do dadely synne / and be also very sure to repente, and the [...] to be neuer punyshed in hell, purgatorye, nor in thys lyfe neyther. (For so farre sayth Tyndale now) but wyth a shorte repentaunce after longe lyenge in synne, sayenge ones Chryste helpe for the maner sake, as it were after a snesynge / the fre [...]ys may frō C y nonnes beddes stye euen vp strayght to heuen: they may therfore be [...]olde & hardy & hardly so they be, to fall to what workes they wyll. For syth theyr fayth is both full of false heresyes, & also can neuer fayle them / they may make them selfe sure you se well, that they shall be no worse parde, not when they be at the very wurste, then faythfull harlottes, faythfull auo [...]trers, faythfull vowbrekers, faythfull the­uys, faythfull murdres, faythfull traytours to men, and faythfull heretykes to god.

And these be as ye se nowe Tyndalys specyall electes / whyche onely nomber by hys hygh spyrytuall doctryne, he wolde we sholde take for the chyrche.

Now good Chrysten reders yf we wolde graunte vnto [Page clxxvii] A Tyndale, that all hys lyes were trew that he hath made in all thys hole proce [...]se of his vnto the ende: yet were he farre from the prouynge of hys pryncypall purpose, that is to tell vs and teche vs whyche is the chyrche / towarde the techynge wherof he hath no thynge ellys done, but onely gyuen vs two dyffynycyons. Of whyche so declared as they be, neyther nother is suffycyent for hys purpose / and yet the secunde mych lesse then the fyrste.

For where as in the fyrste he defyneth it to be onely the electys, in whose hartes god hath wryten hys lawe wyth hys holy spyryte, and gyuen them a felynge fayth of the mercy that is in Chryste Iesu our lorde: afterwarde in the secunde he sayth that it is the hole multytude of all re­pentynge synners, that byleue in Chryst, and put all theyr B truste and confydence in the mercy of god / felynge in theyr hartes that god for Chrystes sake loueth them, and wyll be or rather is, mercyfull vnto them, and forgyueth them theyr synnes of whyche they repente, and all the mocyons vnto synne, of whyche they fere that they shall be drawen into synne agayne / and thus they byleue and fele wythout any respecte of theyr owne deseruynge, ye and for none other cause, then that the mercyfull trouth of god the fa­ther whyche can not lye, hath so promysed and sworne,

Now ye remember that Tyndale hath put you by the waye, two specyall greate heresyes. One that who so euer after baptysme [...]ynneth ones of purpose and wyllyngly, shall neuer haue remyssyon after. The tother, that who so haue onys hys felynge fayth, can neuer synne dedely C after.

Lette vs now se in the ende, besyde that these heresyes of hys be all redy otherwyse impu [...]ned and reproued: let vs yet forther se how hys dy [...]fy [...]ycyon of the chyrche and hys heresyes, wyll iumpre and agre to gyther amonge theym selfe.

And fyrste I aske Tyndale, whyther he that haue ones after hys baptysme synned of purpose and wyllyngly, and sette malycyousely therto / maye after by goddes helpe re­pente agayne that euer he s [...] dyd / and byleue therwithall, that he is bounden to byleue and loue god and hys neygh­bours as god byddeth [...]ym to do. Maye he after suche a synne done, do thys by go [...]des helpe o [...] not?

[Page clxxviii]Tyndale wyll peraduenture say he maye not. Then I A aske hym how he proueth that. Therto peraduenture he wyll saye that the wordes of saynte Poule,Mat [...]hei. 17. Hebr [...]. 6. It is impossy­bl [...] that they whyche haue ones ben illumyned &c. and the wo [...]des of oure sauyoure hym selfe spoken of the synne of blasphemye agaynst the holy goste, do prou [...] it / whyche I wyll then denye. For those places takynge them as falsely as any heretyke can construe theym, saye yet at the vtter­moste no more but that hys synne shall neuer be forgyuen hym / and sayth not that he shall neuer agayne repente, nor that he shall neuer well byleue, nor that he shall neuer after loue god nor hys neyghbour.

wherunto yf Tyndale wyll saye, that yf he myght come to very repentaunce and very bylyefe and loue, he n [...]des muste haue hys synnes remytted and be saued / and syth B god sayeth he shall neuer be forgyuen, and so neuer sa­ued, he sayth he shall ne [...]er so repent and byleue and loue: to that I answere Tyndale two thynges. One that god in all hys threttes reserueth hys specyall prerogatyue of hys mercy, by whyche hys absolute power is neuer bounden vnder any rule of his ordina [...]y iustyce. Secundely I say, that for as myche as those wo [...]des be [...]ynatory and thret­tes they be all of trouth none [...]herwy [...]e to be vnderstan­den, then excepte he repent. As god hym selfe playnely ex­pouned [...] suche wo [...]es by the mouth of hys owne holy proph [...]te Ezechiel / saynge [...] Thoug [...] I sholde saye to a synner,Ezechiel. 33. thou shalte dye / and the same [...]ynner repent hym of hys synne, and deale iustely and ryghtuousely, and de­lyuer agayne the pledge, and make restytucyon of the [...]o [...] ­bery C th [...] he hath commy [...]ed, and walke in the commaun­dementes of lyfe, and [...] vn [...]yght [...]ouse thyng: he shall lyue in lyfe, [...] shall [...]. Of all hys synnes none shall be layed to hys charge [...] He [...] delte iustely, and ryght [...] ­ously he shall lyue in lyfe.

[...]

[...] [Page clxxix] A ye, he destroyeth hys heresye / for then he graunteth that he whyche after baptysme sinneth malycyousely, maye for all that be saued. If he saye nay, then he destroyeth hys dyffy­nycyon / for then maye there be some repentaunte synners wyth all that euer in hys dyffynycyon foloweth, and yet they shalbe none of the chyrche of hys electes.

And thus muste eyther his heresye distroye hys diffini­cyon, or his diffinicion muste destroy his heresye. Of wh [...] ­che twayne yet it wyll be more honestie for hym to kepe his diffinicyon styll, whervpon all his whole mater hangeth / and let his heresy go to the deuyll yt gaue it to hym / & than vnderstande those places of scripture whervpon the deuill taught hym to grounde it, that eyther the blasphemye a­gaynste the holy goost is finall impenitence, and the tother B no restytucyon by the penaunce to the reuocacyon of bap­tysme / or els that the sore wordes of the both places after a certayne vehement maner of speche vsed in holy scripture, somtyme signifyeth onely great hardenes and difficultie, & nat as hym selfe techeth vs, an vttre impossybilyte of re­myssyon. But nowe let vs se howe hys diffinicyon wyll stande with his seconde heresye.

you se well and perceyue, that in his seconde diffinicion he restrayneth his electe churche, vnto onely repentaunte synners that beleue as hym selfe sheweth you.

And than hathe he confessed vnto you, that his chosyn electes plainly do somtyme abominable dedes / whiche de­des yet they repent nat alwaye, tyll the rage be paste / and tyll as Tyndale saieth yt they ha [...]e played out their lustes / C ye and somtyme to, tyll the [...]olde feare of dethe turne them to gyue an eare to good counsell. Nowe se you than very well, that they be by Tyndals seconde diffinicyon, all this whyle expressely put out of [...]he churche, tyll they repente agayne. And than consyder ferther, howe farre agaynste all reason.

ye remembre very well I wote well, that he techeth vs playnly, that none of hys electes dothe at any tyme synne dedely, thoughe theyr dedes be neuer so horryble and abo­mynable, bycause of theyr felynge faythe whiche can ney­ther at any tyme fayle, nor suffre any of theyr horryble de­des, to be dedely synne. And therfore are they consequent­ly neuer out of the fauoure of god, nat euen in the tyme [Page clxxx] wherein they do theyr horryble and abom ynable dedes,A and before the repentynge of them, whiche may be ye wote well many tymes longe betwene. In all whiche tyme they be by Tyndall out of all dedely synne / and therfore good folke and faythefull and goddes good chyldren styll.

And therfore syth they be so / wherefore dothe Tyndale that is in some places so angery with yt catholyke churche, for the puttynge out of euyll folke by excommunicacyon / excōmunicate good folke now & put out of his elect church hym self & faythfull / and finally suche as thoughe they be fallen a slepe in lechery, thefte, sacrilege, inceste, & murdre, stande yet hyghly styll in goddes especiall grace & fauour.

Nowe the fautes that are commune to bothe hys diffi­nicyons, and yet more open in the seconde than in the first / I shall nat nede to reherse you. For bothe haue I touched B some of them before, and also many of theym be to euery good christen man so open at his eye, that he can nede none other way to gyue hym warnynge of them.

For where all hys electes depende vpon his felynge faythe and hys repentaunce / whyle hym selfe sheweth what false artycles he techeth his electes for theyr faythe euery good faythefull man very well feleth, that the more that Tyndals electes fele his false faythe, the lesse faythe haue they, and the more faythlesse be they.

And whan he techeth them to repent the ryght belefe of Christes sacramentes, and therein the right rule and ordre of repentaunce: euery true repentaunte persone well per­ceyueth, that Tyndals repentaunte electes, abhorrynge from shryfte, and reiectynge the sacrament of penaunce [...]but C if they mende and repente better, wyll in stede of pur­gatory whiche they nowe mocke and ieste at, wepe and re­pente in [...]ell this folysshe frutelesse fassyon of theyr impe­nitent repentaunce.

But nowe suppose that all were very well that Tyn­dale here hath sayd / yet howe hath he with all that proued hys purpose? He hathe tolde vs that the whole multytude of his fassyoned electes is the church. But what one worde hathe he tolde vs towarde the profe? neyther reason nor one authoryte of any olde holy saynt, nor any one texte of scrypture / but onely one or twayne suche as nothynge ma­keth for his matter, but vtterly clere agaynste hym.

[Page clxxxi] A And therfore thoughe we graunte vnto hym, that the whole multitude nat of his false framed electes, but of the very fynall electes, be a churche of Christ / as he dothe and muste graunte vnto vs, yt the whole multytude of christen people nat gone out nor put out is a churche of Chryste / of whiche the churche of very electes be, though the better parte, yet a parte and but a parte, and peraduenture the lesse parte / and Tyndals electes, eyther no parte or but a parte, and the very worste parte: yet that the onely electes thoughe they be a churche, be the churche (whiche is the thynge that he shulde proue) that hathe he neyther proued nor any thinge brought effectuall towarde the profe, no more than if he neuer had ment it nor thought it.

And therfore nowe hathe he nothynge proued whyche B is the churche / thoughe we wolde yet of our courtesye fer­ther graunte hym, that all hys whole heresyes were the very faythe / and that the very electes were onely those, in whose hartes the deuill hath wrytten his lawe / or els (whi­ [...]he were yette farre worse) that the very electes were onely those, in whose holy hartes god hadde hym selfe so wrytten his wyll with hys holy spiryte, that they shulde thereby fele that spirituall folke shulde please god with waxynge flesshelye, and freres with weddynge nonnes / and that if they wolde be saued, they [...]ulde haue therein no respecte vnto good workes, but thinke that onely fayth in the promyse and bare repentaunce withoute shryfte or penaunce shall sufficiently saue theym / so that they beleue sure that all the seuen sacramentes serue of nothynge, but C be but bare signes and tokens, and vtterly as gracelesse as them selfe are wytlesse / and specially, so that they be­leue that the blessyd body nor blode of Christ be nat in the sacrament of the auter, nor that they do none other honour in no wyse therto, but onely beleue & remembre that there is nothynge but a me [...]yall of his passyon in a cuppe of wyne and a gobbet of cake brede / and yet in doubte and questyon whether it be brede or sterche. And than that with this godly belefe they se surely to theym selfe, yt they serue no sayntes, but rayle vpon theyr reliques, and dispyce theyr ymages, and there with the crucifyxe to, and the holy crosse it selfe also / and than leste they myght happe to lese an hole day in goddes seriuce, kepe them selfe well & ware­ly [Page clxxxii] frome all holy dayes, and specially (for so these here­tykes A in theyr bokes call it) from the folisshe faste of lent. And thus lyuinge, and therewith beleuynge these afore­sayde heresyes, so fermely that they thynke verely they fele theyr false faythe with theyr very fyngers endes / be bolde than hardely, and beleue verely that theyr felynge faythe shall neuer fayle them / but at all tymes so preserue them, that they can nat onely neuer be dampned, but ouer that can neuer do dedely synne, thoughe they do neuer so many deuelysshe dedes / but for all theyr falshede, thefte, auou­try, vowe brekynge, treason, murdre, inceste, & periurye, shall for theyr onely felynge faythe be good and faythfull false faythlesse wreches, and therfore god almyghtye hys owne mynyons styll.

And thus good christen reders, syth ye nowe playnly B perceyue, that Tyndale hathe here for his owne parte no thynge proued vs that hys false framed electes, nor yet that onely the very trewe electes be the churche of Chryst in erthe, nor hathe nothynge shewed vs whiche is / & ther­fore onely with all his longe processe, vttred and taughte his errours and his heresyes / and lefte the mater nat vn­proued onely, but vntouched to, which he toke vpon him and professed to proue, that is to wytte wh [...]che is the chur­che / but as though he had well and playnly proued it whi­che he hathe nat so moche almoste as spoken of, leaueth of his owne parte nowe and turneth hym to impugne ours: I shall leaue hym for his parte a whyle in the myre, in whiche him selfe hathe ouerthrowen his mater / and shall shewe you shortely howe angrely he ryseth vp, and ryally C rayed in dyrte, bycause he can nat proue the churche of Christe here in [...]rthe to be a congregacion vnknowen, layeth hys myry handes vpon the knowen ca­tholyke churche of Chryste, and fayne wolde pulle that downe to [...] and so leaue no churche at all.

Here endethe the fourth boke.

A ¶The fyfth boke, of the cōfutacyon of Tyndals answere.

Answere vnto the chapyter of Tyndale, in whiche he wold proue that the knowen catholyke chyrche is not ye chyrche. whyther the knowen catholyke chyrche can be the chyrche.

YE haue all redy good chrysten readers well seen and perceyued, that Tyndale hath in a longe processe labored to proue you, that the chyrch of Cryste is a nother company then the knowen catholyke cō ­pany B of all chrysten regyons / that is to wytte a certayne secrete scatered congre­gacyon vnknowen to all the worlde besyde, and to theyr owne felowes to / and euery man by hys inwarde felynge not onely knowen onely to hym selfe, but also so well and surely knowen vnto hym selfe for a vertuouse good and faythefull fynall electe of god, that he is in hym selfe very certayne and sure that he can not be but saued / and that he so hath the spyryte of god imprysoned in hys breste and so faste fetered in hys holy harte, wherof hym selfe hath loste the kayeá, that neyther the spyryte can crepe out nor hym selfe lette hym out by no maner meane / but there muste the spyryt abyde and so preserue and kepe that specyall chosen creature, that he suffer hym to do many great abomynable C horryble deuelysshe dedys, but yet neuer suffer hym in no wyse to do any dedely synne.

Thys I saye ye haue all redy seen, that Tyndale hath by a longe processe labored mych to proue vs / and hath in cōclusyon not onely no thynge proued vs therof, but hath in stede of felynge faythfull folke, brought vs forth suche a sort, as neuer was there puddynge stuffed so full of far­synge, as hys holy felynge faythfull folke are farsed full of heresyes.

wherfore seynge that for the very chyrche of Cryste here in erth, whyche god hath and euer shall instructe and pre­serue in hys trewe fayth and out of the fayth of whyche chyrch shall neyther be trewe fayth hope nor cherite / he can when he hath all done fynde out none other, then thys co­mon knowen catholyke chyrche of all chrysten people, ney­ther [Page clxxxiiii] of malyce gone out nor for obstinacy put out / of which A comon knowen catholyke chyrche, all the good and trewe penytent electes be parteners in fayth: seynge I saye that he can proue none other chyrche, he now gothe aboute to dysproue that chyrche to / wherby we maye well perceyue that he goeth not aboute to fynde out the chyrche, but ra­ther to make men to wene that there were no chyrch at all.

About thys purpose vseth he now thys order. Fyrste in one chapyter he taketh vppon hym to proue yt the knowen catholyke chyrche is not the chyrche of Cryste.

Afterwarde in hys other chapyters folowynge, he pre­tendeth to answere and soyle the reasons, wyth whyche it is proued that the knowen catholyke chyrche is the chyr­che of Cryste, and that none of these sectes of heretykes be.B

And yet pretendynge as I say that he wyll soyle all the reasons of the tother syde / of so many as there are he tow­cheth onely twayne / and yet those twayne how symple he soyleth, that shall you after se.

Let vs now go to Tyndals fyrste poynte / whych poynt in hys fyrste chapyter how falsely he handeleth and how farre fro the poynt, it is euyn a world to se. For fyrst he maketh the tytle before hys chapyter in thys wyse.

Tyndale.

Whyther the pope and his secte be Crystes chyrche or no.

More.

well ye wote good chrysten readers, that I (whose dyaloge in the begynnyng of hys wurke he professeth hym selfe wyth all hys hole boke to answere) haue in places C inough well and playnely declared, that I call the chyrche of Cryste the catholyke knowen chyrche of all chrysten na­cyons, neyther gone out nor cut of. And all be it that all these nacyons now do and longe haue done, recognysed & knowleged the pope, not as the byshop of rome but as the successoure of saynt Peter, to be theyr chyefe spyrytuall gouernour vnder god, and Chrystes vycar in erth / and so do not onely we call hym but Tyndalys owne felowe frere Barns to: yet dyde I neuer put the pope for parte of the dyffynycyon of the chyrche, dyffynyng the chyrche to be the comon knowen congregacyon of all chrysten nacyons vn­der one hed the pope.

Thus dyd I neuer defyne the chyrche / but purposely declyned therfro, bycause I wolde not intryke & entangle [Page clxxxv] A the mater wyth two questyons at onys. For I wyste very well that the chyrche beynge proued thys comon knowen catholyke congregacyon of all chrysten nacyons, abydyng to gyther in one fayth, neyther fallen of nor cut of: there myghte be peraduenture made a secunde questyon after y, whyther ouer all that catholyke chyrche the pope muste nedes be hed and chyefe gouernour or chyefe spyrytuall shepherde / or ellys that ye vnyon of fayth standyng among them all, euery prouynce myghte haue theyr owne chyefe spyrytuall gouernour ouer it selfe, wythout any recourse vnto the pope, or any superyoryte recognysed to any other outwarde person.

And then yf the pope were or no pope / but as I say pro­uyncyall B patryarches, arbysshoppes, or metropolytanes, or by what name so euer the thynge were called: what au­thoryte & what power eyther he or they sholde haue among the people, these thynges well I wyste wolde rayse among many men many mo questyons then one. For the aduoy­dyng of all intrycacyō wherof / I purposely forbare to put in the pope as parte of the dyffynycyon of the chyrche, as a thynge that neded not / syth yf he be the necessary hed, he is included in the name of the hole body. And whyther he be or not / yf it be brought in questyon, were a mater to be treated and dysputed besyde.

And therfore maye y [...] good chrysten readers se, yt Tyn­dale whyche in thys poynte wyll in no wyse perceyue me, but maketh the tytle of hys chapyter whyther the pope and C hys secte be chrystes chyrche or no / laboreth to fle fro the lyght, and hyde hys hed in the darke, and confounde the mater wyth two, questyons at onys.

Now is not the tytle of hys chapyter so synystrely wry­ten and wryed awaye from the poynt / but the begynnynge of hys chapyter it selfe, is mych worse and forther wrested wronge. For lo thus he begynneth.

Tyndale.

That the pope and his spirites be not the chyrche maye this wyse be proued.

More.

Lo before in the tytle he made hys questyon of the pope and hys secte, whyche questyon as I haue shewed you he framed farre from the mater / and syth those people whych Tyndale calleth ye popys secte (by whych name he meneth all that professe the comon catholyke fayth) be all the na­cyons [Page clxxxvi] chrystened, excepte a few late fallen to Luther, wyc­lyffe,A frere Huskyn, and zuynglius: how fyttly he vseth his termes in callynge all the body a secte, whyche he myghte as well call a scysme, for bothe sygnyfye a cuttyng of from the hole chyrche / and then as well he maye and so doth he soone after, call the heretykes y chyrche / and therin calleth he bothe twayne as properly, as yf he wolde cut of a can­tell or a gobbet from an hole lofe, and then call the cantell a lofe and the lofe a cantell.

But where as before in the tytle he made as I saye hys questyon of the pope and hys secte / here he turneth it into the pope and hys spyrytes. In whyche excepte he call spy­rytes in mocke & scorne / all chrysten nacyons besydes those corners that professe them selfe for heretykes / he muste ne­des B mene here by hys scornefull name of spyrytes, onely the pope and the spyrytualtye / and then goeth he yet mych forther fro me wyth whom he sholde cope. For I call euer the chyrche whyche hys parte is here to impugne, not the spyrytualtye onely, but the hole corps and body of spyry­tuall and temporall to.

And Tyndale very well woteth, that the spyrytualtye so farforth doth accompte not them selfe alone but the temporaltye, and them selfe to gether for the catholyke chyrch / that there is not so pore a frere, but he professyth it almost in euery sermone. In whyche when he exhorteth hys au­dyence to praye for the chyrche, he sayth not ye shall praye for the spyrytualtye alone / but ye shall saythe he praye for the thre estates of holy chyrche, that is to wytte the spyry­tualty C the temporalty and the sowles that be in purgatory. For though they be departed out of our cōpany, yet them compte we styll for viagers and pylgrymmes in the same pylgrymage that we be towarde the same place of rest and welth that we walke, tyll they be passed ones all the payne of theyr iournaye, and entred into the blesse of heuen.

Nowe it is a greate shame for Tyndale to flye fro the poynte as he dothe, in a mater so playne and open, that euery chylde maye se how lothe he is to comme nere and cope.

But Tyndale hath all redy ryden so many shrewed courses, in whyche he hath hadde suche buffettes, that he hath almoste broken hys horses backe and hys owne to / that now neyther is there bere nor heretyke more lothe to [Page clxxxvii] A come to the stake, then Tyndale to come nere the tylte.

And therfore drawynge a syde and flyttynge from the chyrche, that is to wytte frome the hole multytude of all chrysten nacyons spyrytuall and temporall bothe, whiche is the tylte by whyche he hath to ronne: he standythe styll at the tyltes ende tymperynge and temperynge aboute his harneys, and wyll no forther then the spyrytualtye / but putteth of hys helmet and doeth on a folys hode, and from iustynge falleth to iestynge, to do the people pleasure, and dreue awaye the mater wyth makynge of mockes and mowes. For now lo shall we peruse hys proues. Lo thys wyse reason he bryngeth in the fyrste.

B Tyndale.

That the pope and his spyrytes be not the chyrche, maye thy [...] wy [...]e be pr [...] ­ued. He that hath no fayth to be saued thorow Cryste, is not of Crystes chyr­che. The pope [...]eueth not to be saued thorowe Cryste. For he teacheth to truste in holy workes for the remys [...]yon of synnes and sa [...]uacy [...]n / as in the workes of penaunce enioyned, in vowes, in pylgrymage, in ch [...]styte, in other mennes prayers and holy lyuynge, in freres and freres cotes, in sayntes me­rytes. And the sygnyficacyons put out / he teacheth to byleue in the dedes of the ceremonyes, and of the sacramente; ordeyned at the begynnynge, to preache vnto vs and to do vs seruyce / and not that we sholde beleue in them and serue them. And a thousande suche superstycy [...]usnesse setteth he before vs in stede of Cryste, to byleue in neyther Cryste nor goddes worde, neyther honourable to god nor ser­uysable vnto our neyghbour, nor profy­table C vn to our selues for the ta­myng of the flesshe, whiche all are the denyenge of Crystes blode.

More.

Some man wolde here peraduenture saye to Tyndale, that he playeth in thys poynte the very folysshe dysour, for the faute of the man to rayle vpon the offyce / consyderyng that all be it there haue popes bene that haue euyll played theyr partes, yet haue there ben popes agayne ryghte holy men sayntes and martyrs to / and therfore in iestynge thus vppon a good offyce for an euyll offycer, he canne [Page clxxxviii] lacke no mater of raylynge, but maye runne out in hys A rybaldry at large, and saye that all the hole worlde muste leue of all maner of offyces, and neyther haue pope, empe­rour, kynge, counsaylour, mayre, shyryffe, nor alderman to gouerne or rule the comons, nor yet any man in hys owne howse stewarde, cater, pantler, butler, or cooke. For among all these offyces there can be founden none, that hath not had ere thys many an yll man in the rome.

Therfore wolde some man thynke I saye, that Tyn­dals raylynge here vppon the pope were all ronne out of reason, though that all the thynges whyche he layeth here to hys charge, were in dede as euyll as Tyndale wolde haue them taken. But surely syth the man hath fawtes inough besyde / I wyll my selfe defende hym well in thys.B For thys wyll I well make good in his byhalfe, that yf the fawtes for whyche he rayleth here vpon the pope, be thyn­ges noughte in dede and worthy to be rebuked / then maye he well and lawfully ryally ieste and rayle vppon the hole pedegre of popes, saynt Peter hym selfe and all. For surely the thynges for ye techynge wherof Tyndale rebuketh here the pope, hath euer ben the doctryne of popes, patriarches, prophetes, apostles, and our sauyour hym selfe and all.

For fyrste he proueth vs that the pope byleueth not to be saued thorow Christ, bycause he techeth to truste in holy workes for remyssyon of synnes and saluacyō. Is not here a peryllous lesson trow ye / namely so taught as the chyrch techeth it, that no good work can be done wythout helpe of goddes grace, nor no good worke of man worthy the re­warde C of heuen but by the lyberall goodnesse of god, nor yet sholde haue suche a pryce sette vppon it saue thorowe the merytes of Crystes bytter passyon / and that yet in all our dedes we be so vnperfyt, yt eche man hath good cause to fere for hys owne parte, leste his beste be badde. I wolde wene that good workes were not so dedely poyson / but ta­kynge not to myche at onys for cloyenge of the stomake, no more at onys lo then I se the worlde wont to do many drammes of suche tryacle myxed with one scruple of drede, were able inough for awght that I can se so to preserue the soule fro presumpcyon, that one sponefull of good workes sholde no more kylle the soule, then a potager of good wurtes sholde kylle and stroye the body.

[Page clxxxix] A The scrypture byddeth vs watche, and faste, and pray, [...] and gyue almoyse, and forgyue our neyghbour / & we pore men that lacke the hyghe spyrytuall syghte that Tyndale hath and hys holy electys, take these thynges for good workes. And god sayth in hys holy wrytte, that he wyll forgeue our synnes the rather for them, and wyll rewarde vs for them, & thorow the scrypture / thys cryeth god in our earys, and faythfully promyseth almost in euery lefe. And now ye se Tyndale that precheth so faste of the fayth and truste of goddes promyses, wolde haue vs in these p [...]omy­ses trust god nothyng at all.

But herein is great peryll, [...] specyally to hope and truste to gete any good at goddes hand for y workes of pena [...]e B enioyned. For the sacrament of penaunce is to Tyndale a great abomynacion, and therin in dede he sayth somwhat. For well ye wote euyn of naturall reason, a wyse man wyll sone se, that syth the punysshement that a man wylfully taketh for the synne that he hath done commeth of an angre and dyspleasure that he bereth towarde hym selfe for the dyspleasure that hys synne hath done to god / and that h [...]s wyllyng submyttyng of hym selfe to the correccyon of hys goostly father, commeth of great humylyte gyuen by go [...] and taught by all good men: god muste nedes there [...]o [...]e perde bothe be angry and abhorre all them, that for the frutes of these good affections can hope for any fauour grace or pardone at hys mercyfull hande.

If Tyndale lyste to loke in sainte Austayn in his boke C of penaunce / he shall there fynde that holy doctour & [...] byd euery man put hym self whole in hys con [...]ssours had [...] and humbly receyue and fulfyll such penaunce as he shall enioyne hym.

But than doth Tyndale specyally touch, [...] that ye church techeth to put trust in vowys and in chastyte / for that is a thyng in the earys of Luthers electes of all thynges mo [...] abomynable. But the churche techeth none other tru [...] therin, than the scrypture doth hy [...] selfe, and oure bl [...]s [...]d sauyour hym selfe.

They teche sayth Tyndale, [...] to truste in other mennes prayours and holy lyuyng, in freres and in freres cotys. Is nat here an abomynable synne, that any man shulde haue so lytle pryde in hym selfe, that he shuld thynke other men moche better than hym selfe, and therfore desyr [...] th [...]m [Page cxc] to pray for hym to, besyde hym selfe. In howe many places A doth the scrypture exhort eche of vs to pray for other. And whan the scrypture sayth that the dylygent prayoure of a iuste man is moche worth / shuld we than truste nothynge therin,Ia [...]i. 5. but thynke that it were ryght nought worth at all / or bycause the scrypture so commendeth the prayour of a good man, shuld we lyke hys prayour the lesse for his holy lyuynge, & byd hym pray nat for vs but yf he lyue nought / or if he be a frere and go in a freres cote, bydde hym praye nat for vs, tyll he put of hys frerys cote and put on a frese cote, and ru [...]ne out of hys ordre, an catche hym a quene & call her hys wyfe?

Than goeth he from good lyuers in erth vnto sayntes in heuyn / & fyndeth yet more faute, in that men are taught B to go in any pylgrymage, or do any worshyp to them, or to thynke that theyr good lyuyng was so pleasaūt vnto god whyle they lyued here in erth, that he wyll therfore vouchesaufe to do any thynge at theyr requeste for any louer of theyres, whyle they be wyth hym in heuyn.

Howe be it in thys poynt I dare be bolde to say for Tyndale my selfe, that he is nat so folysh, but that he seeth well I nough that if I may well pray my neyghbur to pray for me that is here wyth me in erthe / I may moche better pray the sayntes pray for me that are with god in heuyn / sauing that he byleueth that they be nat there, nor neyther here vs nor se vs, but lye styll as Luther sayth a slepe. And therfore Tyndale leste we myghte wene that he byleued well, byd­deth vs in another place of hys boke, that when we mete ye C sayntes and talke wyth any of them, than lette vs hardely knele and make our prayour to them. And so ye shall natte nede to meruayle moche though thys man be bolde to ieste and rayle vpon euery man here in erth, when he fereth nat to make mokkes and mowys at the blessed sayntes in heuyn.

He blameth vs and bylieth vs, as though we toke theyr dede ymagys for quyke. But hym selfe semeth yet moche worse in dede,Matth. 22. that taketh goddes quykke saintes for dede, agaynst Chrystes owne wordes declarynge the contrary, bothe by the scrypture in the gospell of saynte Mathew, & by the story that Chryste also telleth of Habraam and the ryche gloton and Lazare in the .xvi. chapytre of Luke. [...]ucae. 16.

Than commeth Tyndale in at the laste wyth the cere­monyes [Page cxcv] A of the church and the sacramentes / agaynst which prykke he specyally spurneth wyth hys kyb [...]de hele, but it wyll nat helpe hym. The gentleman is so proude, that the holy sacramentes muste be his waytynge seruauntes. For now he sayth that they be but superstycyouse and serue of noughte, but be sette in stede of Cryste, and are (as they be taught) the denyenge of Crystes bloude.

How sholde they now be the denyeng of Crystes bloud, when the chyrche teacheth vs as god hath taught it, that they all haue theyr strength by Crystes bloude, and that in the tone of them is Crystes owne very bloude and hys blessed body bothe. Bothe whyche thys heretyke denyeth / and as in my fyrste boke I shewed yow, bothe iesteth and scof­feth vppon the precyouse body and bloude of Cryste in the B blessed sacrament of the aulter / and lyke a madde frantyke fole maketh mokkes and mowys at the masse.

And now that ye se good chrysten reders for what doc­tryne Tyndale rebuketh the comon catholyke chyrche / ye can not but therby perceyue what doctryne he wolde haue them teche / that is to wytte that we shold haue no respecte to good workes, vse no shryfte nor penaunce, beware of chastyte and blesse vs well therfro, let no good men praye for vs, nor none that vse holy lyuynge, no Francysce frere bydde any bede for vs in hys freres cote, tyll he do of hys graye garmentes and cloth hym selfe cumly in gaye ken­dall grene / sette sayntes at nought, and all holy ceremo­nyes vsed in goddes seruyse, and als the seuen sacramētes to / make mokkes at the masse and at Crystes body, and C take it for nothynge but cake brede or starche. And when the clergye techeth this onys / then shall they be the chyrch, But for lakke of this doctryne, they be no parte therof. For Tyndale telleth vs that tyll they teche vs thus / they can [...]euer byleue to be saued thorowe Cryste. And I saye me semeth as I be saued thorowe Cryste, yf Tyndale laye madde in the myddes of Bedlem, he coulde not to good chrysten men telll a more frantyke tale. And thys fransey is hys fyrste reason. Now let vs here hys seconde.

The seconde reason.

Tyndale.

Another reason is, who so euer byleue in Cryste consente [...]h that goddes sawe is good. The pope consenteth not that goddes lawe is good / [...]or [...]e hath for [...] ­den lawfull wedlokke vnto all his ouer whom he reygneth, as a tempo [...]a [...] [Page cxcii] tyrant with lawes of his owne makynge, and not as a brother exhortynge.A them to kepe Crystes. And he hath graunted vn [...]awfull boredome vnto as many as brynge money. As th [...]row all dow [...]helarde, euery preste payenge a [...]lden vnto the arched [...]con, shall [...]rely and q [...]yetly haue h [...]s whore, and put her awaye at his pleasure, and take another at his owne l [...]te. As they do in Wales, in Irelande, Scotlande, Fraunce, and Spayne. And in [...]nglande therto they be not [...]ewe whyche haue [...]ycences to kepe who [...]es some of the p [...]pe and some of theyr ordynaryes. And when the parysshes go to law with them to put awaye theyr whores / the bysshoppes offycers moche them, polle them, and make them spende theyr thryftes, & the prestes kepe theyr who [...]es styll. How be it in very dede sens they were rebuked by the preachynge of wy [...]leffe / our englyshe spyrytual [...]ye [...]aue layed theyr snares [...] vnto me [...]nes wyues to couer theyr abomynacyons, though they byde not always secrete.

More.

Here Tyndal proueth vs that no pope byleueth in god / B For none of them consenteth that goddes law is good. He proueth that they consent nat that goddes lawe is good, bycause they make he sayth lawes of theyr owne byside / & therfore he sayth that they nat onely consent nat that god­des lawe is good, but also that they raygne ouer chrysten people lyke temporall tyrauntes [...] wherby Tyndaletecheth vs that euery temporall prynce makyng any lawe byside ye lawe of god, consenteth nat that goddes lawe is good, nor vseth nat hym self as a lawful prynce, but as an, vnlawful tyraūt / bycause he doth nat onely as a brother exhort Chrystes law, but also lyke a tyraunte compelleth them to kepe hys owne.

Now thys glawnce that Tyndale in raylyng vpon po­pes maketh by the way at all temporall princes and lawes C is if they playnly dur [...]te speke it oute, the very pryncipall poynte of all hys whole purpose and hys mayster Marten Luthers to, and all the serpentyne seed that is discended of them [...] For Luther sayth yt we nede no mo lawes but onely the gospell well and truly preched after hys owne false fas­shyon. And he babeleth also in hys babilonica that neyther man nor angell hath any power or authoryte to make any law or any one syllable of a law vppon any chrysten man, wythout hys own agrement gyuen therunto. And by frere Bar [...]s heresy a man may wyth out deadell synne breke all the lawes that are made by men.

And thus ye may se that the shrewd sort of all this secte, wolde nat onely haue popes and popes lawes gone and [Page cxciii] A taken away, but kynges & kynges lawes to, if theyre pur­pose myght prosper / & make all people lawles, bycause all lawes are lettes as they take theym to theyr euangelicall libertie by whych they clayme to be bounden or compelled to nothyng, but exhorted onely to lyue euery man after the gospell, by euery man, expouned after hys owne mynde whych maner of exhortyng amounteth vnto as moche, as to let all rune at ryot wythout any bond or brydell, & than exhort euery man to lyue as he lyste hym selfe.

But now is it good to se what lawe so specyally lyeth in Tyndals eye / for whyche he generally rayleth vpon all the remanaunt. That is for that he sayeth that the pope hath forboden lawfull wedlocke. In thys he meneth two thynges, with whych two Luther and wyclyffe were euyll B content before. One that there is maryage now forbod [...]n bytwene bretherne and sy [...]ters chyldren that was not be­fore forboden by the scrypture. For whyche cause wyclyffe sayth that suche maryages are forboden wythout any fun­dacyon or grounde.

But thys thynge, to whyche pope wyll Tyndale laye? For he shall fynde that in these thynges the olde holy pope saynt Gregory and dyuers other holy popes to, and not popes onely but also dyuers counsayles and great assem­blees of holy vertues fathers, haue in olde tyme sone vpon chrystendome well spredde abrode, for encreace of naturall honesty and propagacyō of chrysten cheryte, forboden ma­ryage to be made wyth other degrees bothe of kynred and affynyte, mych forther of then they that abyde now forbo­den C/ wyth whyche the chyrche hath synnys for our infyrmytye dyspensed and vndone the bonde / so that in that poynt the faute that Tyndale, wyclyffe, and Luther lay vnto the pope, they muste laye to so many suche popes and other holy men besyde, that who so consyder the tone sorte & the tother wyll haue lytell luste to byleue thre or foure nowe suche maner folke as Tyndale and hys fonde felowes be, agaynste so many vertuouse old holy fathers as they were that made those lawes.

The tother law that he layeth so sore agaynst the pope, is that prestes, freres, chanons, monkes and nunnes, may not be suffred to be wedded, contrary to theyr owne vowys and promyses made vnto god, whyche no man compelled them to make. Is not thys a greate fawte tha [...] frere tukke [Page cxciiii] maye not mary madde Maryon?A

But then to set out thys mater som what the better to the shewe / he ryally rayleth out at large vppon all bysshoppes, archedekens, and other spyrytuall offycers. whose fautes yf they be suche as we well knowe that he falsely by­lyeth many / yet were theyr euyll deme [...]nure neyther to be imputed vnto the law which forbedeth it as ye gospell doth nor vnto the pope. whyche when he hath ben enformed of a bysshoppes faute, hath as by dyuers decretales appereth proceded to the punysshement and amendement therof.

But Tyndale letteth not to lye out alowde, and saye that the pope hath hym selfe graunted vnlawfull whore­dome to as many as brynge money / and in another place of hys boke he sayth, that the pope hath in Rome sette vp a stewys of boyes.B

we haue hadde many pardonys come hyther and many dyspensacions and many licences to / but yet I thanke oure lorde I neuer knewe none suche, nor I truste neuer shall, nor Tyndale I trowe neyther / but that he lysteth lowde to lye. And as for hys lycences custumably gyuen by the ordynaryes, I truste he lyeth in other countrees / for as for Englande I am sure he lyeth. And therfore euery honest man wyll I wote well take hys tale therafter, for in the lyke maner he maye when he lyste, and wyll hereafter when he seeth his tyme, rayle vppon eu [...]ry [...]orde that hath any lete, and vppon all the sessyons of peace kepte wythin the realme / in all whyche many kyndes of malefactours are amerced yerely, and fynes sette on theyr heddes, & they compelled to paye them, to compelle theym the [...]by to leue C theyr euyll doynge / and yet wyll there many for all that be starke nought styll. But yet are not thamercemētes made for lycences / but deuysed for punyshementes & for meanes of amēdement, though the malyce of many men be so mych that they neuer amende therby.

And consyder that hys seconde reason wherin he repro­ueth all lawes the spyrytuall openly, and couertly the temporall to, and for the lawes calleth the makers tyrauntes / so farforth y fynally no man can please hym, but wyclyffe the fyrst founder here of that abominable heresye, that blasphemeth the blessed sacrament / thys seconde reason of hys I say euery wyse man seeth, is yet more vnreasonable and mych mor [...] fonde and folysshe then the fyrste.

A The thyrde reason.

Tyndale.

Therto all chrysten men yf they haue done amys, repent when theyr fautes be tolde them. The spyrytualtye repent not but of very su [...] and con [...]te t [...] synne, persecute both the scrypture wherwith they be re [...], and [...] [...]m that warne them to amende and make heretykes o [...] th [...]m and burn [...] t [...]em. And besydes that the pope hath made a playne decre, [...] deth sayenge, Though the pope synne neuer so greu [...]us [...], and [...] hym to hell by hys ens [...]mple thousandes innumerable [...] hardy to rebuke hym [...] Por he is hede ouer all, and none [...]uer hym [...] [...]. xl. Si papa.

More.

Here he proueth vs that the spyrytualtye be not of the chyrche / for none is of the chyrche but repentauntes. And B then all chrysten men he sayeth repente, as soone as theyr fautes be told thē / but the spyrytualty he sayth repent not.

Tyndale hoth now forgete, that he hath ofter thē onys tolde vs here before, that hys owne [...] electes wyll not euer here theyr fautes tolde them at the fyrste whyle they be ca­ryed forth in the rage / but that a man must yf he wyll haue audyēce, tary tyll y luskus haue played out theyr lustes / & as he sayd in one place, some of theym wyll not gyue eare tyll the very colde fere of deth come. And nowe yf he wyll stande to thys tale, he gyueth the spyrytualtye whom he so sore accus [...]th, a playne answere after hys owne doctryne [...] that he is to hasty vppon them / they maye be of his ow [...]e especyall electes perde fulwell, though they be not con [...]ent to mende yet / but he must suffer them to playe out all theyr C lustes, or ellys tyll they come so nere the colde fyre of deth that they fele not one sparke of the warme flesshe, and then speke and he shalbe herde.

How [...]e it leuyng hys owne doctryne for hym selfe [...] they maye tell hym that he is somwhat ouer temeraryouse and holde, eyther to iudge so [...] rashely the repentaunce of other men whiche inwardly lyeth in the harte, wherof onely god is the beholder / or ellys to impute and ascrybe the maner and condycyon of some impenitent wretchys, to the who [...]e company of the clergy, whiche vsually declare theym [...] repentaunt by shryfte and confessyon of theyr synnes and doynge of penaunce, as all other good chrysten people do.

Now yf Tyndale alledge agaynste theym / that for a [...]l that they falle to dedely synne agayne: we wyll aske hym [Page] wherby knoweth he that / and then muste he saye that by A some synfull dedes. But then yf he graunte onys, that de­dely synfull dedes be a sure fuffycyent profe of dedely syn­full myndes: he destroyeth ye wote well all hys owne for­mar doctryne, concernynge the synnynge and yet not syn­nynge of his owne holy electes, whyche can he sayth neuer synne dedely do they neuer so hortyble dedes.

And yet as for repentynge / our clergy perde maye well appere more penitent then theyres. For I dare boldely say that excepte some such as be fallen into Luthers and Tyndales chyrch / there is ellys no man so bad of the catholyke chyrche, but he wyll confesse and agre that hys lechery is dedely synne. But on the tother syde, theyr owne clergy & the very great clerkes of theyr clergy, as the greate clerke Luther, and the great clerke Tindale, and the great clerke B Huyskyns: yf they be asked whyther the lechery bytwene a frere & a nunne be dedely synne or no, they wyll answere ye wote well that it is none at all / yf they gyue it onys an honest name then is it no synne at all, yf they call it matry­mony, but shall haue hell for theyr patrymony. wherof ye se well they repent not a whytte / but they wyll I warraūt you when they come there.

But all theyr excuse lyeth in thys, that all theyr fawtes come but of frayltye / and our spyrytualtye synneth of ma­lyce, bycause they persecut [...] Tyndals holy translacyon of the scrypture, in whyche hym selfe hath playnely confessed that he turned the vsuall englysshe wordes of chyrche, preste, and penaunce, to congregacyon, senyor, and repen­taunce, of very purpose to brynge in his heresyes agay [...]st C the sacramentes. whych whyle he so dyd of purpose / I am content to wynke therat, and forgete for thys onys that he synned therin of playne purpensed malyce. But yet thys wyll I saye the whyle for our parte, that he hath no good grounde to saye that the persecucyon is malycyouse, done agaynst such a translacyon, so translated of such a shrewd entent and suche a malycyouse purpose.

Now yf he wolde excuse hym selfe from malyce, in that he wold make vs wene that though part be false, hym self myght of weyke wyt and frayle fayth, wene hys heresyes were the trewe bylyefe, bycause of his owne mynde & Lu­thers & Huyskyns authoryte in the construccyon of scryp­ture: he muste perde by the same reason excuse our clergy [Page cxcvii] A from malyce in persecutynge his heresyes, syth that they maye well wytte, by the authoryte of saynt Austayn, saynt Hierom, saynt Gregory, saynt Ambrose, saynte Cypriane, saynt Basyle, saynt Chrysostome, & all the olde holy sayn­tes vnto theyr owne dayes, and all the whole catholyke chyrche of Cryste, and by hys holy spyryte gyuen to those holy doctours of his chyrche and euer abydynge therin / that those heresyes whiche Tyndale techeth, that freres may wedde nunnes, and that the sacramentes be but bare tokens and sygnes, and Crystes blessed body at the masse no sacryfyce nor none oblacyon, nor but a bare memoryall in wyne and starche or cakebrede, be very false deuelysshe errours / and in all good chrysten mennes eares, spyght­fully spoken, blasphemouse, and abomynable. And where B he sayth that the clergye doth rebuke them by whome they be warned to amende, and doth make heretykes of them & burne them, menynge Hytton peraduenture & suche other as he was / of whiche sorte there hathe of late some be bur­ned in Smythfelde, as Bayfelde, Baynom, and Teux­bery: the clergy maketh them nat heretykes nor burneth them neyther. But Tyndales bokes and theyr owne ma­lyce maketh them heretykes. And for heretikes as they be / the clergy dothe denounce them. And as they be well wor­thy, the temporaltie dothe burne them. And after the fyre of Smythfelde, hell dothe receyue them / where the wret­ches burne for euer.

But than he sayeth that the pope neuer repenteth, by [...]use he [...] made a playne decre, in whiche he commaundeth sayenge; Thoug [...]e the [...] C synne neuer so greuously, and drawe wyth hym to hell by hys ensamp [...]e thousandes innumerable / yet let no man be so hardy to rebuke hym. [...]or he i [...] hede ouer all, and none ouer hym / Distinct .xl. Si papa.

There are orders in Christes churche, by which a pope may be bothe admonisshed and amended / and hathe be for incortigible mynde and lacke of amendement, finally de­posed and chaunged. But that euery lewde lorell vppon euery false tale that he hereth, or peraduenture that hym selfe maketh, shulde haue courage and boldenes to scoffe, geste, and rayle, eyther vpon pope or prince, or a moche more meane estate / is a thinge so lytle commendable, that euery well ordered regyon, hath by playne lawes prohibi­ted & forboden suche rybauldous byhauoure / all thoughe they were able to proue that the thynge whiche they sayde [Page cxcviii] were nothynge false at all. And this thynge hathe euery A well ordered realme, nat without good reason prouyded / syth it well appered that were the thing trewe were it false, it were vnsittynge to suffre that maner to be vsed, wherby the gouernours myghte often causeles and falsely be de­famed amonge the people. And if the thynge were some tyme peraduenture trewe / yet syth that fassyon & maner can nothinge amende the mater, & therfore is by all lawes forboden to be in suche wise vsed towarde the most symple wretche in all a towne / it were a lewde thinge to suffre any prynce, estate, or gouernour, to be brought in sclaunder amonge the comen people / wherof can come none other effecte or frute, but hatered or contempt planted in theyr hertes towarde theyr rulers and gouernours, whom they be for all that styll bounden bothe to loue and obaye.B

And if a man wolde say that great men can nat other­wyse come to the knowlege of theyr owne fautes: ye may be sure that if the thyngꝭ be trewe wherof the people talke, they knowe theyr dedes them selfe before the people here of them. And if the same be false / yet may many men haue it in theyr mouthes before it come at the princes eare / and yet whan he hereth it syth the same is fayned, what good can he do thereby. And if percase any man thinke that the prynces them selfe perceyue nat theyr fautes for fautes / tyll they here the people murmure and wondre at theym: surely right seldome happes it that a man coulde nat per­ceyue that thynge for a faute, whiche were in dede so great that it were worthy for all the people to wonder at. And yet if priuate affection towarde theyr owne fantasies, hap­pened C in any thynge so far to myslede theyr iudgemente / for helpe of suche happes serue their confessours and coū ­saylours / & euery man that of good mynde wolde in good maner declare his owne good aduyce towarde his prynce and his countrey, eyther to his owne person or suche other of his counsayle, as by them it may be brought vnto him / and nat in vnthrifty company fall to raylyng, or by sclaū ­derous bylles blowe abrode an euyll noughtie tale, wher­of all the towne may talke, & to theyr owne harme diffaine theyr souerayne, whyle hym selfe shall happely nothynge here therof.

But yet are there some that defende suche euyll fassyon of vnreuerent raylynge vppou greate personages, affer­mynge [Page cxcix] A that it shulde do good that suche hyghe es [...]ates as be farre frō all other fere, may stande yet vnder some drede of diffamacion and sclaunder / that lykewyse as the desyre of honoure, prayse, and glory, prycketh them some tyme forwarde to do good / so may the fere of infamy, dishonour, and disprayse, refrayne and reftrayne them from euyll, and some tyme holsomely brydle and conteyne them within the l [...]mytes and boundes of good and honorable ordre. There nedeth no man to doute, but that as far as suffiseth to that purpose, is prouyded fore well inoughe / thoughe noughty personys be not maynteyned in theyr malycyous raylynge. For who so standeth a lofte vpon an hylle of eminent hyghe estate, can not in no wyse be hydde / but as he seeth all the eyen of his people from the valey lokynge vp B vppon hym, so seeth he well that neyther dede nor counte­naunce almoste that hym selfe may make, can passe vnper­ceyued and marked. whyche is inough to make any man regarde hym selfe that any respecte hath toward the prayse and estymacyon of other folke [...] whych respecte who so euer lacketh / no fere of slaundre or drede of dyffamacyon amendeth. which may percase also be lōge spredde farre abrode, ere any man brynge hym worde / whyle many men abhorte to be demaunded by what meane they knowe that there is any suche rumour abrode, and to be asked who tolde them the tale. And some loue to tell theyr mayster no displeasaūt tydynges / but when they here many speke euyll, turne of theyr good myndes euery thynge to the beste, and saye to theyr mayster that all the worlde sayth well.

C And fynally yf it fortune hym to here that he be spoken of abrode / some may therby happen rather ware wroth thē care / specyally syth he maye make hym selfe sure, that yf suche raylynge speche be suffred to runne at ryotte, be the gouernour as good as god is hym selfe, yet shal he be sure to be shrewdely spoken of / so redy be lewde persons maly­cyousely to rayle and ie [...]te vppon theyr rulers. And so for as mych as vppon raylynge and iestynge vppon any ma­ner of estate, there can no good growe, but many tyme ra­ther mych harme: yet it is not onely by the comon lawes of thys realme vppon great payne forbyden, that any man sholde with any slaunderouse raylynge wordes mysse vse hym selfe toward his prynce / but also by the playne statut de scandalis magnatum sore and streyghtly prohybyted, [Page cc] that no man shall slaunderously speke of any noble man in A the realme,Ex [...]di. 22. [...] And myche more is then intollerable to suffer any suche ribauldes to the rebuke of any state, to put forth any raylynge bokes / whyche malyciouse maner is by all other lawes vppon great payne forboden, though the ma­ter touche a ryght mene persone.

And all thys I saye yet / as though I graunted that the pope had made that lawe that Tyndale here sayth he dyd.

But now yf it be false ye Tyndale sayth, & that of trouth the pope made not that lawe, but that the wordes whyche Tyndale reherseth be no law at all, nor spoken nor wryten by any pope, but by some other that was neuer pope / what is Tyndale than, that sayth the pope hath made those wordes for a playne lawe.

Those wordes whiche Tindale sayth are a playne law B made by the pope / are in dede incorporate in the boke of the decrees, in the same distinccion and place where Tyndale allegeth them. But than is Tyndale very ignoraunt, yf he know not that though there be in that boke of the decrees many thynges that be lawes, & that were by diuers popes and dyuers synodys and counsayles made for lawes / yet are there in that boke many thynges besyde, that neyther were made by any synode nor by any pope / but wryten by dyuers good holy men. Out of whose holy workes as well as out of synodys and counsayles and popes wrytynge, Gracyane a good vertuouse and well lerned man, compy­led and gathered that boke / whych is therfore called the decees of Gracyan, as an other lyke booke is called the de­crees of Iuo, whyche out of lyke authoryte cōpyled a lyke C worke. Now is euery thynge that is alledged and inserted in the bokes of those decrees, of suche authoryte there, as it is in the place out of whyche Gracian or Iuo gathered it / and not a lawe nor a thynge made by the pope, but yf it were a lawe or made by a pope before, and out of a lawe or out of a popys wrytynge taken in to the decrees.

Now the wordes whyche Tyndale bryngeth forth, and sayth that the pope hath made theym for a lawe, be not the wordes of ony pope / but they be the wordes of the blessed holy martyr saynt Boniface whych brought the fayth in to Almayne, and was for the fayth martyred in Freselande. And so is it playnely specyfyed in the decrees, by those wordes in the rubryce, Exdictis Bonifacit martyris.

But Tyndale to blynde and begyle the readers wyth / [Page cci] A wold make mē wene that it were the popys wordes made for a playne lawe. wherin Tyndale playnely sheweth hys playne open falshed, excepte he were so wyse that he hadde went the pope had made it for a law, by cause it begynneth with S [...] papa / lyke hym that bycause he redde in the masse boke, Te igitur clementissime pater, preched vnto the pa­rysshe that Te igitur was saynt Clemens father.

The fourth reason.

Tyndale.

And Poule sayeth Ro. 13. let euery soule obay the hygher powers, that are ordayned to punysshe synne. The pope wyll nat nor let any of his.

More.

B Touchynge fyrste the pope hym selfe, Tyndale telleth vs here a wyse tale. For settynge a syde the questyon whe­ther the pope eyther be or rightfully ought to be, chefe go­uernoure ouer the chrysten flocke / and if he be or ought to be, howe farre than and to what thynges his authorytie stretcheth or ought to stretche: This thynge at the leaste­wyse Tyndale very well knoweth hym selfe, that neyther in spirituall thynges nor in temporall, there is no man at Rome in his owne see, that claymeth any power or iuris­diccyon vpon hym. And as for the clergye besydes, Tyn­dale here as farre as I se, falsely belyeth the pope. For he letteth none of his to obay their higher powers / but by the canon lawes of the churche, commaundeth euery of them to obay theyr hygher powers, and to kepe and obserue the C lawes of the princes and countreys that they lyue in.

But the thynge that greueth Tyndale is this / that any preest shulde in honoure of the sacramente of preesthode, haue any maner of preuiledge more than a lay man. For his heresye rekeneth euery woman a preest, and as able to say masse as euer was saynt Peter. And in good faythe as for suche masses as he wold haue sayd, without the canon, without the secretes, without oblacyon, without sacrifyce, without the body or blode of Christ, with bare sygnes and tokens in stede of the blessed sacrament: I wene a woman were in dede a more mete preest than saynt Peter.

And all be it that neyther woman may be preest, nor any man is preest or hath power to say masse, but yf he be by the sacrament of holy orders taken and cōsecrated into [Page ccii] that offyce: yet syth the tyme that Tyndale hath begonne A his heresyes,2 R [...]gu. 1. and sent his [...]rronyous bokes about, callyng euery chrysten woman a preest: there is nat nowe in some places of Englande the symplest woman in the parysshe, but that she dothe, & that nat in corners secretely but loke on who so woll, in open face of the worlde in her owne pa­rysshe churche / I say nat here, but say her owne selfe and (lefte you shulde loke for some ridle) openly reuested at the hyghe aulter, she sayeth I say her selfe and syngeth to, if it be trewe that I here reported, as many masses in some one weke, as Tyndale hym selfe eyther sayeth or hereth in two whole yere to gether / but if it be whan he swereth by it, or hereth some other swere.

All holy consecracyons Tyndale calleth folysshe cere­monyes / forgettyng that in the olde lawe dyuers tymes it B is honorably rehersed and layde for a cause of the [...]euerent vsynge of the prestes person, bycause that the holy oyle is vpon hym.

And he lyste nat to remembre that the holy Prophete Dauid, dyd so moche esteme that holy oyntemente with whiche kynge Saule was consecrated, that all be it he was reiected agayne of god, and hym selfe receyued and anoynted kynge in his place, and was also persecuted by hym / he nat onely put the man to dethe that sayd he hadde slayne hym for touchinge of goddes anoynted / but also for all that he spared hym and sauyd his lyfe, and beynge his dedely enemye, dyd hym yet no bodely harme. He repented and forthought that he hadde so moche done to hym,1 R [...]gum. 24. as secretely to cutte his garment.

These thynges and many suche other lyke whereof the C scrypture is full, Tyndale in euery place diffymuleth / and wolde haue all consecracyons sette at nought and taken in dirisyon / aud wolde that no man shulde haue neyther prynce nor preest in any maner reuerence, the rather of one rysshe for theyr holy consecracyon. But as he wolde haue euery woman to take her selfe for a preest / so wolde he that euery man shulde wene hym selfe a kynge. For surely the wordes of saynt Peter with whiche these heretykes proue the tone, proue euyn the tother a lyke / that is to say falsely and folysshely taken, proue bothe the tone and the tother / but wysely taken and truely,1 Pe [...]ri. 2. proue neyther the tone nor the tother.

A The fyfte reason.

Tyndale.

And Paule chargeth. 1. Co [...]. 5. If he that is a brother be an whore keper, a dro [...]kerd, couetous, an extorcioner, or a rays [...], and so forth / that we haue no felowshyppe with hym, no not so myche as to [...]ate in his company. But the pope with violence compelleth vs to haue suche in honour, to receyue the sa­cramentes of them, to heare theyr masses, and to byleue all they saye / and yet they wyl not let vs se whether the say trouth or no. And be cōpelleth .x. paryshes to paye theyr tythes and offerynges vnto one such, to go and runne at ryot at theyr cost, and to do nought therfore. And a thowsande suche lyke doth the pope contrary vnto Chrystes doctryne.

More.

To begynne here at the last poynt / the pope, though the B partie somtyme that hathe dyuers benefyces dothe abuse the frutes, the pope gaue hym neyther libertie nor lycence that he shulde so do / but gaue him leaue to take the cure of them, trustynge vpon certayne suggestyon that the man were suche one as shulde and wolde vse them well. And no doubte is there, but that some man may ryghte well haue the cure of dyuers parisshes, and good causes why he so shulde / and do more good in them bothe tha [...] some other shulde in one. But as for this poynte Tyndale meaneth moche farther than he speketh / and entendeth hereafter if it be well alowed concernynge popes and pr [...]estes, than to drawe that lyne a lytle longer / and loke whether he may make the reason stretche a lytle farther, as he hathe done a lytle in some parte of h [...]s wryting all redy, whiche we shall C answere I truste well ynoughe whan we come ones to the propre places.

Nowe where he sayeth that whore kepers and suche o­ther as saynt Poule forbyddeth vs the company, the pope with vyolence compell [...]th vs to haue in honoure, and to receyue the sacramentes of them, and to here their masses, and to beleue all that that they say: This is a very lowdelye. For the pope letteth you nat to complayne vpon them / and the lawes of the churche be, that for their crymes they shalbe suspended from the medelynge and adminystracion of suche thynges / and somtyme deposed of theyr offyces, depriued of theyr benefyces, and degraded of their orders to. And therfore the pope comp [...]lleth hym nat with vyo­lence to do them honoure in their vyces. And if there were [Page cciiii] any that dyd / he were in the doynge an euyll pope as he A were an euyll man. But what were the faute of an euyll pope to the offyce of the papacy / excepte that Tyndale wyl reproue and rebuke euery kynge and prynce, and wolde haue none at all, bycause that some of theym somtyme do not alway theyr dewtye / or wyll lay to the prynces charge yf any offycer vnder hym do not euery man such ryght as the prynce wolde he sholde, and trusteth also that he dothe. Now where he sayth that the pope compelleth hym to by­leue all that euery suche preste sayth: y is yet another lye ones agayne. For yf the preste say salse, & preche heresyes / as yf he wold say that all the seuen sacramētes be but bare sygnes & tokens, & that freres may lawfully wedde nūnes: the pope compelleth no man with violence to byleue that preste / nor compelled not Tyndale neyther agaynste the B playne scrypture of god, in suche frantyke heresyes to by­leue y lewd lernyng of Luther, frere Huyskyn, & Denckiꝰ, Baltasar, Lambert, and Suinglius / of all whyche neuer one byleueth other. But the pope is well content & so wold it sholde be, that yf the preste preche suche heresyes, folke shall not byleue hym but accuse hym, and haue hym refor­med, & reuoke them, and abiure them / or ellys let degrade hym and delyuer hym, and let the prynces kepe hym from the people. wherof to be sure and for auoydynge of such he resyes by the terrour of that ensample / good chrysten prynces cause faythfull people to burne hym.

Buf then is there one thyng wherwyth Tyndale is sore dyspleased, that the pope wyll not as he sayth let hym and hys felowes se whyther the preste say well or no.C

If the preste be accused of hys doctryne / he is as I saye broughte vnto examynacyon, to wytte whyther he sayed trewth or no. what other way wolde Tyndale haue? It is playne inough what he meneth in thys mater. He meneth therin nothynge ellys, but that he wolde haue all thyng so ferforth sette at large, that he myght brynge fyrst in dowte and questyon, and after in errours and heresyes vpon the questyon, euery poynt of Crystes catholike fayth, that god hath by hys holy blessed spyryte in .xv.C. yere taught hys catholyke chyrche. And then all thynges ones brought in that euangelycall liberty, that euery man may byleue euen as hym lyst, and after that lyue euyn as hym lyste to, with out any lorde or any lawe to lette hym / then lo to make the [Page ccv] A gospell truely taught, take awaye in any wyse all the cler­gye clene, and let Tyndall sende his women prestes about the worlde to preche.

And nowe good christen reders here haue ye harde all his fyue reasons / by whiche in stede of that he shulde haue proued, that is to wytte that the knowen catholike church of all chrysten people is nat the churche of Christ in [...]rthe, he hathe taken vpon hym to proue (all besyde the purpose) fyrst that the pope and his secte, and after yet farther fro the purpose, that the pope and the spirytualtie be nat the churche. And of that whiche shulde be his purpose, that is to wytte that the knowen catholike church is nat the chur­che, he hathe nat spoken one worde. And yet fynally con­cernynge that he hathe goone about to proue / touchynge B the pope and the spiritualtie / he commeth forthe as ye se nowe with his fyue reasons that ye haue redde / in the ma­kynge of which fyue reasons, a man may meruayle where were vanysshed a way all his fyue wyttes, for any pece of his purpose that appereth proued in them all / but if we r [...] ­ken raylynge for reason and shameles open lyes for good and sufficient proues. And therfore here ende I this boke / in whiche if Tyndale haue sayd any thinge to the purpose at all, I am content to graunt hym that he hath sayd well in all, and fully proued all to gether.

Here endeth the fyfte boke / and begynneth the syxte, where in is auoyded the solucyons of C Tyndale, wherwith he wolde disproue the fyrste reason, prouynge that the knowen catholyke chur­che is the trewe churche of Chryst. whiche fyrste reason is that all the sectes of heretykes do come out of the catholyke churche.

¶The syxte boke,A

The defence of the fyrst argument agaynste Tyndale.

Tyndale.

T [...]e argumentes wherwith the pope wolde proue hym selfe the chyrche are solued.

More.

THys is the tytle of hys chapyter, wherin he descēdeth by degrees as ye se, ferther downe from hys purpose thenne euer he dyd before. For where as before in stede B of the whole catholyke chyrche, he descē ded to the clergy alone, whych is but the tone parte: here he leueth all them to / & maketh as though men called the whole catholyke chyrche no mo but the pope hym selfe / that is to wytte an whole greate maigne multytude of many sundry states, maners, condycyons, and kyndes, no moo but one man alone. Is not thys ge [...]e by Tyndale well and comely deuysed?

And yette forthwyth to shewe hys forther constaunce, when he commeth to the mater selfe / he turneth it agayne fro the pope alone, to the whole company of the clergye / dyssymulyng alway styll the temporal [...]ye, as though there were of them neyther man nor woman of the chyrche. wher C in I wolde haue excused hys one falshed by hys other, and wolde haue sayd that he ment accordynge to hys heresye, that in the clergye were all togyther cōteyn [...]d, bycause he maketh euery man and euery woman bothe a preste. But that excuse he taketh awaye hym selfe / and that euyn by & by, when in the next wordes folowynge, he declareth that he speketh of no mo then onely suche as be so shamelesse, that they suffer them selfe to be shauen. For in thys wyse lo the wyse man begynneth.

Tyndale.

Nothwithstandynge a [...] bycause as they be all shauen, so they be all shame­les [...]e, to afferme that they be the ryght chyrche / and can not erre, though all t [...]e wo [...]lde seeth that n [...]t one of them is in the ryght waye. And that they [Page ccvii] A haue with vttre dif [...]yaunce forsaken bothe the doctryne and the lyuynge of Chryste, and of all his apostels / let vs se the sophestrye wherewith they wolde perswade it. One of theyr hyghe re [...]sons is this.

More.

Lo syr here Tyndale affirmeth that lyke wyse as all the clergy be shauen, so they be all shamelesse / & therfore hathe his mayster Martyn Luther let his crowne growe, and lyeth with a nonne to lerne of his lemman some very may­denly shamefastnes. But nat tyll her here was wel growen agayne, ye muste vnderstande / for she was before for lacke of her heare as shamele [...]se as Luther ye wote well.

But nowe why be all the shauen clergy shamelesse sayth Tyndale? Bycause they affirme that they be the ryghte churche. Nowe whan Tyndale knoweth well that we B speke of the catholyke churche. And than here dissimuleth that the clergye so calleth the ryght churche of Christ / and that they call the hole catholike chyrch nat thē selfe alone [...] but them selfe and the temporaltie to gether, as Tindall may well lerne by euery poore freres prayour ye preche [...]h: eyther hath Tyndale shauen his [...]rowne agayne [...] or elles is there as god wolde one yet vnshauen as shameles as any that was shauen this seuen yere.

But yet whan he goeth farther, and sayeth that all the whole worlde seeth that of the whole clergye beynge all shauen, there is nat one of them all in the ryght waye [...] but that they haue all euerychone with vttre defiance forsaken bothe the doctryne and the lyuynge of Christe and all h [...]s apostels: I verely beleue in good faythe, that Tyndale C shall scantely fynde any one so shamelesse amonge h [...]s owne sorte, that is to say amonge all the sectes of here [...]y­kes, but that wyll confesse vppon hys conscyence, that Tyndale here lyeth out of all measure shamefully.

And whan he hathe about the profe of thys poynte be­stowed all redy hys whole chapyter afore, wherein he c [...]me forth perdy with his fyue egges / & after a great face made of a great feste, supped them all vp hym selfe without an [...] salte / for all his gestes that he bode to supper, myght smell them so roten that they supped of the sauour). Nowe to come forthe agayne with the same tale, and set vs to the same table at supper agayne, with neyther bredde nor drynke, fless [...]e, fysshe, nor frute / This man well decla­reth vs that thoughe he be nat shauen, but haue his h [...]are [Page ccviii] of hys vnshavyn crowne growen out at greate lengthe in A despyghte of prestehed, and lyke an Iseland [...] curre lette hange ouer hys eyen / yet hath the man as myche shame in hys face, as a shotten herynge hath shrympes in her tayle.

For surely yf there were any one sparke of shame in his whole body, it wolde sette hys face a fyre to speke amonge chrysten men, that other folke are out of the ryghte waye / when he woteth well that hys wrytynge sheweth in what wronge waye hym selfe is, how farre fallen frome Crystes holy techynge, wyth hys bestely doctryne, vnder name of matrymony to cowple to gyther freres and nunnes in le­chery / and hys abomynable mockynge of Crystes owne blessed body.

But now bycause he speketh of our sophystrye: let vs consyder how substancyally the man soyleth the fyrste rea­son,B that he wolde were rekened so lyghte. And I truste ye shall se that one reason somwhat better then all hys hole fyue were, which I haue answered in the next boke before.

Tyndale.

One of t [...]yr hyghe reasons is, The chyrche saye they was before the herety­ [...]es, and the heretykes came euer out of the chyrche and lefte it / & they were before all them whiche they now call heretykes and Lutherans, and the Lutherans came out of them &c. wherfore they be the ryghte chyrche, and the other heretykes in dede as they [...]e called. well I wyll lyke wyse dyspute. Fyrste the ryght ch [...]rche was vnder Moses & Aaron and so forth, in whose r [...]ume [...] satte the Scrybes & Pharysees and hygh prestes in the tyme of Crist / and they were before Cryste / and Cryste and his apostles came out of theym and departed from them and lefte them: wherfore the Scrybes Pharysees & hygh prestes, were the ryght chyrche, and Cryste and his apostles and dis [...] [...]ses C heret [...]kes and a damnable secte. And so the [...]ewes are yet in the ryghte waye, and we in errour. And of trouth yf theyr [...]ynde reason be good then is this argument so to. For they be lyke, and are b [...]the one thynge.

More.

Now good chrysten reader, thys reason that Tyndale so ryally s [...]offeth out, wyth a lyke argument of hys owne makynge / he telleth you not where he redde. But it well appereth that he hath redde it in other mennes bokes be­syde myne / for ellys he wolde not saye one of theyr hyghe reasons, but one of hys hyghe reasons yf he toke the reasō but for myne alone.

But thys is hys fasshyon lo in all thynges / he maketh as though he mocke but men of these later dayes / whyche [Page ccix] A latter dayes hym selfe calleth yet eyght hundred yere and more. But he mocketh in dede those olde holy doctours, whiche dyed and some were martyred aboue a thousande yere agone.

For ye shall vnderstande that this reason whiche Tyn­dale so scornefully reherseth, and wolde seme to shake of so lyghtly / was nat only made by me in my dyaloge, but also before my dayes by dyuers good and great connyng men. And amonge other, thys reason that Tyndale in scorne calleth an hyghe reason / was made by that great fa [...]ous doctourand hyghe gloryous martyr saynte Cyprian, a­gaynste Nouatiane and fortunacian, and other heretykes and scysmatykes, in and before his dayes.

Nowe is saynt Cyprian a man of suche authoryte, that B the greate holy doctour saynte Austayne, alledgeth as reuerently saynt Cyprian as any man now alledgeth saint Austyne.

And thys reason that Tyndale nowe derydeth and mocketh / saynt Cyprian thought so sure, specially so fur­nysshed with scryptures as he sette hit forthe, that he vseth it nat ones or twyse / but in sondry places so often agaynst heretykes, that it maketh me euyn sory to se howe sore god suffred that good saynte to be deceyued, yf an heretyke myght nowe by a lyke formed argumente lo shortely and so shamefully shake hys reason of.

But I wyll nat do saynt Cyprian so moche dishonour, as to sette hym to dispute with Tyndale. But syth Tyn­dale and I be somwhat more metely matches. He & I shal C therfore betwene vs twayne fyrst dispute and discusse / and than you good christen reders shall after discerne & iudge, whether the reason that he reherseth and the reason that he maketh, by whiche as by the lyke he wolde fayne seme to soyle it, be as he sayeth they be, bothe lyke and bothe one or not.

For the better perceyuynge wherof, ye shall vnderstāde that where as in my dyaloge I had proued fyrste that the churche of Christe here in erthe, shall euer endure and con­tynue as longe as the worlde shall laste / whiche thynge is I doubte nat in suche wyse proued there, that Tyndale dare nat hym selfe denye it here: I than in the secōde boke dyd after proue, that the knowen catholike church is that same churche / and none of all the sectes of heretykes, by­cause [Page ccx] all they be come out of it / and that therfore all they A be but braunches cut of or broken of frome thys vyne of Crystes mystycall body the knowen catholyke chyrche / & that syth they be from the stocke, they therfore drye vp and wythere awaye, and ware worth no thynge, nor mete for no thynge but worthy for the fyre.

And so thys reasō that Tyndale here reherseth, I there laye forth and declare with dyuerse places of scrypture / by whyche I proue at good length thorow all the seconde chapyter, that suche as go out of thys knowen catholyke chyrche, be and alwaye haue ben the heretykes, and for herety­kes be declared by the very scripture it self. wherof I there by some places, as some suche as saynte Cypryane sayeth hym self / how be it of trouth not all the places of scrypture that he layeth for that purpose, bycause I had not at that B tyme redde and marked saynt Cypryane vpon that poynt.

Now commeth Tyndale and barely reherseth my rea­son, dyssymulynge after hys accustumed fasshyon all that euer I layed forth for the profe. Of all whyche thynges neyther in hys answere here whych he calleth hys solucyō, nor afterwarde when he cometh to the place in hys perty­cular answerys vnto euery chapyter in order, he neuer maketh any maner mēcy on / but when he cometh to my secōde boke, goeth fro the fyrste chapyter to the thyrde, as though the prenter had lefte the secunde vnprynted.

Is not this fashyō a playne cōfession of his ignoraūce, and that he was at hys wyttes ende, and sawe not what to saye vnto it. And bycause he lefte all my profe of my reason vntouched / he durst not here for shame speke of my name,C nor be a knowen that he redde that reason in my boke / lest men sholde loke for it, and spye that I [...]adde so proued it, that Tyndale durst not med [...]e wyth my prouys.

How be it sauynge that it hadde bene more wysedome for hym to haue dyssymuled and lette a lone all the whole mater / els dyd he more wysely then to haue wrestled wyth that chapyter, out of whyche he shall neuer be able to wade whyle he lyueth / y reason I am sure is in it selfe so strōge, before made by saynt Cypryane as I sayde and some other mo, other maner men then Tyndale or I be eyther.

And in good fayth, I neuer loked that euer I shold ha­ue fownden any man so folysshe as to wene that he were able to soyle it wyth thys argument that Tyndale here [Page ccix] A frameth for a lyke / or that any man were so blynde of wyt as to wene that those two argumentes were lyke.

For remembre nowe good reder, that the churche of Christ must as I haue in my dyaloge proued by scripture, laste and contynue for euer, and christes church can be bu [...] one. whervpon it must nedes folowe, that there can none go out of hit to begynne any newe churche of Christe. But those therfore that go out therof, muste nedes be churches of heretykes.

Than muste Tyndale if he make his reason, lyke myne make the [...]ynagoge of the Iewes lyke to the churche of Christe, in perpetuitie of lastynge and contenuaunce vpon erthe / or elles shall his argument and hys ensample be as like to myne as I wyste ones a gentyll woman make vnto B her husbande, whyche longed sore to teche her and make her perceyue the treatyse of the spere / & byddynge her con­syder well what he shulde shewe her. And fyrste he began at the erthe / and to make her perceyue that the erthe han­geth in the myddes of the worlde by the payse and weyght of hym selfe, and the ayre compasynge the water and the erthe rounde about on euery syde: ye muste quod he lerne and marke well this, that in the whole worlde hygher and lower, is nothynge elles but vtter and in [...]er / so that of the whole worlde, erth, water, ayre, and all the speres aboue, beyng eche in a rounde compace ouer other, the erthe ly [...]th in the very myddes, and as we myght say in the wombe [...] & that is of the whole worlde from euery parte the innermost place / and from it vpon all sydes towarde the heuen as it C is outwarde, so is hygher / so that as I tell you in ye whole worlde all is one hygher and more outwarde, lower and more inwarde. And therfore the erthe syth he is in the very myddes, that is the most inwarde place of ye whole world / he is therfore in the lowest for of the whole worlde / the innest is as I tolde you the lowest. And than syth the erth lyeth in the lowest / hys owne weyght ye wote well muste nedes holde hym there / bycause ye perceyue your selfe that no heuy thing can of hym selfe ascende vpwarde. And than the erthe lyenge all redy in the lowest place / if he shulde fall out of place on any syde, lyke as he shulde fall frome the inner parte to the vtter / so shulde he fall fro the lower place into the hygher. And that ye wote well it can nat, bycause it is heuy. And therfore ymagen that there were an hole [Page ccxii] bored euyn thorow the whole erthe / yf there were a mylle A stone throwē d [...]wen down here on thys syde from our fete, it shulde fynally reste and remayne in the very myddes of the erth. And though the hole go thorow / yet y stone could not fall thorow / bycause that from the myddes as it sholde go outwarde from the innermoste parte, so s [...]old it (whych a myll stone maye not do) ascende hygher from the toweste place / bycause as I tolde you in the whole whorlde vppon euery syde to go outwarde frome the innermoste, is ascen­dynge / & to go inward from the vttermore is descendyng / & euer the vtter parte is on euery syde of the whole round worlde the hygher, and the inner part the lower.

Now whyle he was tellynge her thys tale, she nothyng wente about to consyder hys wordes / but as she was wont in all other thynges, studyed all the whyle nothynge ellys,B but what she myghte saye to the contrary. And whan he hadde wyth mych worke and ofte interruptynge, brought at laste hys tale to an ende, well quod [...]he to hym as Tyn­dale sayth to me, I wyll argue lyke and make you a lyke sample. My mayde hath yender a spynnynge whele / or els bycause all your reasō resteth in the roūdenes of the world, come hyther thou gyrle, take out thy spyndle and brynge mo hyther the whar [...]e. Lo syr ye make ymagynacyons I can not tell you what. But here is a wharle and it is rounde as the worlde is / and we shall not nede to yma­gyn an hole bored thorow, for it hath an hole bored thorow in dede. But yet bycause ye go by ymagynacyons / and I wyll ymagyne wyth you. ymagyne me now yt this wharle were tene myle thycke on euery syde, & thys hole thorowe C it styll / & so great that a myll stone myghte well go thorow it: now yf the wharle stode on the tone ende, & a myll stone were throwen in aboue at the tother ende, [...] wolde go no forther than the myddes trowe you? By god yf one threwe in a stone no bygger thā an egge / I wene yf ye stode in the neyther ende of the hole fyue myle byneth the myddes, it wolde gyue you a patte vpon the pate that it wolde make you clawe your hed, and yet shold ye fele none itche at all.

It were to longe a tale to tell you all theyr dyspycyons. For wordes wold she none haue lacked, though they shold haue dysputed the space of seuyn yere. But in conclusyon, bycause there is no mo wordes but one wherby he myghte gyue her a trewe sample, nor she could not perceyue the dif­ference [Page ccxiii] A bytwene the worlde & the wharle / but wolde nedes haue them lyke and bothe one, bycause bothe were rounde: her husbande was fayne to put vp hys speere, and leue his wyfe her wharle, and fall in takynge of some other mater.

Nowe playeth Tyndale euyn the same parte with me / and maketh an argument and a sample of the sinagoge, as lyke to the churche of Chryste for the poynte that we speke of, that is concernynge our sauyour with his apostels go­ynge out of the synagoge of the Iewes, and chrysten peo­ple goynge out of the churche of Christ / as the wharle was lyke the worlde, concernynge the stone to go thorowe the wharle, & the stone to fall thorowe the erthe, or the whole erthe to fall into the mone whan the sonne were ouer oure hedes and the mone on the tother syde in the contrarye B sygne.

For I thynke that no man wyll desyre to haue it proued that the chyrche or Synagoge of the Iewys was not or­dayned to laste for euer / but to ceace and gyue place vnto Chryste at hys commynge / and that he sholde then in stede of the synagoge of the Iewys, begynne and contynue hys chyrche bothe of Iewys and Gentyls / and that then sholde be of the Iewys peculyar chyrche & peculyar lawes and sacramentes and ceremonyes an ende / and that the chyrche of Chryst as longe as the world sholde laste, s [...]olde neuer haue ende. Nor no man wyll I suppose desyre to haue it proued, that the chyrche of Chryste can be but o [...]e. For these thynges are good reder not onely in euery parte of scrypture so plentuousely proued, but also amonge all C chrysten people so playnely byleued & so comenly knowen, that I shall not nede to spende any tyme in the profe.

Now these thynges beynge thus / consyder good chry­sten reader how lyke these two reasons are to gyther, Tyndales I mene and myne / whyche two Tyndale sayth be not onely lyke, but also be bothe one.

Chryst and hys apostles and saynt Iohn̄ baptyste went out of the chyrche or synagoge of the Iewys / bycause the tyme was come in whyche by goddes owne ordynaunce, the Iewys chyrche or synagoge sholde haue an ende. And therfore Luther, Tyndale, Huyskyn, and Swynglyus be gone out of the catholyke chyrche of Chryst, whiche whyle the world endureth, is ordayned of god to haue none ende.

Also Chryste & hys apostles went as god had ordayne [...] [Page ccxiiii] out of the olde chyrche to begynne a new / bycause the olde A muste by goddes ordynaunce be lefte of and chaunged. And therfore Luther, Tyndale, Huyskyn, and Suinglius be gone out of the olde chyrche to begynne a new / bycause the olde chyrche by goddes ordynaunce, shall neuer be left of in erth, nor neuer no new bygonne.

Also Cryst and his apostles went out of the olde chyrch to begynne one new chyrche of all people agreynge in one fayth ether wyth other. And therfore Luther, Tyndale, Huyskyn, and Suinglius, be gone out of the olde chyrch, to begynne a great many new dyuers chyrchers, of whych neuer one shold agre with other / nor almost in any of them any one man wyth other.

Fynally Chryste went wyth hys apostles out of the old chyrche to begynne a newe, that was prophecyed to be a B perpetuall chyrche wythout ende, agaynste whych the ga­tes of hell sholde neuer preuayle. [...] And Luther, Tyndale, Huyskyn, and Suinglius, be gone out of the olde chyrche to begynne a great many newe, whych are all prophecyed by Chryste and hys apostles to be starke heretykes / & that none of them all shall endure and laste no more than hath done the chyrches of Arrius, Heluidius, Pelagian, or Manicheus, wyth fourty suche sectys mo. All whome the very gates of hell haue so preuayled agaynste / that they haue gotten them in and shette them faste in and fast kepe them in wyth the dampned deuels wyth flame and fyre in the depe dongeon of hell.

And thus haue I nowe good chrysten readers shewed you so many playne dyfferences bytwene Tyndals reason C and myne, whyche twayne he sayeth be bothe one / that I wene he wyll not shewe you so many dyfferences bytwene hym selfe and a sole / and yet he wyll not saye that they be bothe one.

But now shall you ferther se, that the ferther he wadeth on in hys solucyon, the deper he synketh in to the mudde, and the faster he stycketh in the myre. For lo thus he wa­deth on.

Tyndale.

But in as myche as the kyngedome of god st [...]ndeth not in wordes, as Poule sayth. 1. Cor. 4. but in power: therfore loke vnto the mary and pyth of the thynges selfe, and let vayne wordes passe.

A More.
[Page ccv]

Uery well remembred lo. For there is one dyfference more bytwene Tyndals reason and myne / whyche dyffe­rence sauynge that Tyndale here putteth vs in remem­braunce, I hadde ellys almoste forgoten. And that is, that as he putteth me well in mynde, the kyngedome of god is not in wordes but in power.

Now dyd Chryst therfore and hys apostles, proue theyr departynge to be lawfull from the chyrche or synagoge of the Iewys, not by bare wordes onely, but also by myghte and power in workynge of many wonderfull myracles for the profe therof.

And on the tother syde, Luther, Tyndale, Huyskyn & Suinglius, proue theyr departynge frome the catholyke B chyrche, to be lawfull by bare wordes and babelyng onely, wythout any power of myracles at all. In stede of whyche power to be shewed for them by goddys hande, they haue assayed to gete helpe and power of the deuyll by ye myghte of mannes hande, in raysynge of sedycyon, stryfe, debate, and warre, amonge rebellyouse and vnruly people / by whyche many a thousande haue bene in few dayes kylled and slayne, and the far moste harme fynally fallen vppon theyr owne heddys. And Suingliꝰ theyr chyefe capytayne vnto whome Tyndale swarued from Luther, bycause his heresye ferther blasphemeth the blessed sacrament / was taken, slayne, and burned / and many by that meane returned from theyr heresyes vnto the trewe fayth agayne. And yet god hath not done / but what harme so euer such heretykes C as goddes scourge be suffred to worke for the whyle, hys mercy shall not fayle in conclusyon, [...] . 23, 1 [...]. both to prouyde for the perpetuall saufgarde of hys catholyke chyrche (whyche he hath promysed neuer to forsake / but though he vysyt theyr iniquytees wyth the rodde of correccion, yet hys grace and good wyll he hath warraunted neuer to take from theym) and also shall of hys goodnes turne agayne frome theyr errours, some suche as those malycyouse archeheretykes deceyue / and them whose malyce he shall fynde vncurable he shall as an olde noughty rodde, before the face of hys faythfull chyldren of hys catholyke chyrche, when he hath beten and corrected them therwith, do as the tēder mother doth, breke ye rodde in peces & caste it in the fyre. But nowe shal you se how Tindale goth forth, & declareth his soluciō

Tyndale.A
[Page ccxvi]

Vnder Abraham, Isaac, and Iacob, was the chyrche greate in fayth and small in numbre. And as it encreased in numbre, so it decreased in fayth vn­tyll the tyme of Moses. And out of those vnbeleuers god stered vp Moses, and brought then vnto the ryght fayth agayne. And Moses left a gloryous chyrche, and in fayth and clea [...]ynge vnto the worde of god / and dely [...]ered them vnto Iosu [...]h, [...]leaz [...], Phineas, and Cale [...]. But as soone as the [...]enera­cyon of them that sawe the myracles of god were dede / they fell to [...]olatrye immedyatly, as thou seyste in the byble. And god when he hadde delyuered them into captyuyte for to chastyse theyr wekednesse / stered them vp a prophete euer more, to call them vnto hys testament [...]gayne. And so he dyd well nye an hundred tymes I svppose yer Chryst came / for they neuer bode any space in the ryght fayth. And agaynste the comy [...]ge of Chryste, the scrybes Pharysees, Ca [...]ph [...]s, Anna, and the elders, were crepte vp in to the sete of Moses, Aaron, and the holy prophetes and patriarkes and succeded them [...]i­nal [...]y,B and had the scrypture of god but euyn in c [...]ptyuyte, to make marchaū dy [...]e of it and to abuse it vnto theyr owne glorye and profyt. And though they kepte the people from outwarde idolatrye of worshepyng of images with the [...]ethen: yet they broughte theym in to a worse inwarde idolatrye of a false faith & trust in theyr own dedes, and in vay [...]e tradyciōs of theyr own faynynge. And they hadde put out the sygnyfycacyons of all the ceremonyes and sacramentes of the olde testament, and taught the people to byleue in the workes selfe / and had corrupte the scrypture with [...]al [...] gloses. As thou mayest se in the gospell, how Chryste warneth his discyples to be warre of the seuen of the Pharises, whyche was theyr false doctryne and gl [...]ses. And in an other place he rebuked the scrybes and the pharises, sayenge: wo be to them, bycause they had taken awaye the keye of knowlege, and had shut vp the kyngdome of heuen, and neyther wolde entre in them selues nor suf [...]e them that wolde. How had they shut it vp? verely wyth theyr tradycyons and false gloses C whyche they had sowed to the scrypture in playne places / and in the takynge away the meanynge of the ceremonyes and sacryfyces, and teachynge to by­leue in the worke.

More.

Tyndale hath here made vs a longe dyscourse frome Abraams dayes vnto Chryste shewynge that euer in tyme fayth hath decayed. But he myghte for ye purpose haue by­gonne at Adam a greate deale a fore Abraam / and ende at the daye a dome a great whyle after Chryste.

Now it is no newe thynge amonge mo people to haue mo taught.

But what auayleth Tyndale all thys tale / proueth it any other but that yet that company was styll, the chyrche [Page ccxvii] A contynued on frō the begynnyng vnto the byrth of Chryst as saynt Austayne ordrely deduceth by a seryouse goodly processe, in hys booke of the cytye of god?

Now that many tymes god punysshed them / so doth he now, & hys mercy alwaye wyll, when hys wysedome seeth it necessary [...] what of all thys?

ye sayth Tyndale but he rered vp alwaye prophetes in dyuerse tymes, an hundred to turne theym home in to the ryght waye agayne. Be it that he sent so many / what hel­peth thys vnto Tyndals mater? For well we wote that all the fautes of the people for whyche they were punysshed, and agaynst whyche god sent so many prophetes to prech, were not euer more idolatrye / but somtyme other synnes, [...] & specyally the synne of the flesshe for whych the hole world B was wesshed wyth Noes floode to purge the fylth therfro / and Sodome and Gomor burned vp wyth brymstone for the foule synne of the flesshe agaynst ye nature of the flessh. And now god wyll I fere fynde out yet some newe more horryble turment to punisshe and reueng the fylthy sty [...]ke of the flesshely caryn [...] that hath caste his cou [...]agyouse cor­rupcyon so farre agaynste god hym selfe, that freres bre­kynge theyr vowys and wedded wyth nonnys, be so sha­melesse to bycome prechers, & fynde wreched bestely people to bere it, and be content therwyth.

But now that god raysed vp so many prophetes to call the people home / what fyndeth Tyndale for hys purpose therin? Fyndeth he that god raysed any suche as Luther [...] Suinglius, Huysken, and hym selfe, that to call men from C lechery become lechours, and abyde therby and to call men from erroure become heretykes, & exhorte men to heresye-Dyd god sende any suche? yf he dyd, lette Tyndale tell vs one. If he dyd not / wherof serueth hys processe of his hun­dred prophetes?

Also god punysshed his peole / and then sent his prophetes, not to make sedycyone and sectes amonge hys people, but to gouerne and lede hys whole flocke and hys whole people to gether. As he caused Moyses to cōuaye hys hole people out of Egypte / and the other prophetes, iudges, & prestes after, in to the lande of byheste. was there euer any of those heretykes whom the catholyke chyrche hath from the begynnynge condempned, that euer so dyd? Let Tyn­dale name vs one.

[Page ccxviii]Then yf he wyll saye that euery prophete dyd not so,A but some dyd as he doth and suche other as we call heretykes, as wrongfully as yf we called an [...]w a shepe / that is to saye they dyd call vppon the people, and wynne in some agaynste the mynde of the multytude and of the prestes & prynces: I saye that those prophetes agreed in theyr fayth and preched a lyke. and then can not Tyndale and hys cō ­panyons whome we call heretykes, be any suche prophe­tes sent vs by god, sythe of these neuer one agreeth wyth an other.

Besydes thys, those olde prophetes proued them self by myracles to be messengers sent frome god. But Luther, Tyndale, Huyskyn, and Suinglius, shew no myracles at all to shew them selfe messengers sent by god but by theyr euyll doctryne clerely proue them selfe messengers sent by B the deuyll.

And fynally as farre as the chyrche or synagoge of the Iewys was decayed in fayth, or good lyuynge decayed by the false doctryne or false glos [...]s of the scrybes and phary­sees, Cayphas, Anna, and thelders / whyche were as Tyn­dale sayth crepte vp into the seate of Moyses, Aaron, and the holy prophetes and patryarche agaynst the commyng of Chryste / and whom Chryste for theyr false doctryne dyd rebuke: yet confesseth Tyndale hym selfe, that they kepte the people frome outwarde idolatrye of worshyppynge of idols wyth the hethen.

And Tyndale muste confesse ferther, that neyther scry­bes nor pharysees, nor preste, nor elders, as he calleth them no nor yongers neyther yf he wyll haue all the temporalty C called yōgers, as he wyll haue all the clergy called elders / were not euyn at y tyme all of one sorte / but as there were many naughte of euery sorte, so was there of euery sorte ryght good folke also.

And as for theyr tradycyons and doctryne, of whyche was many vayne, some euyll & some superstycyouse, wher­by the people amonge them toke harme in the folowynge: suche as were euyll thynges were not so fully determyned but that some were of one mynde some of other / and therin men myghte folowe the beste doctryne yf they wolde, wher in they had doctours and teachers to / and myghte yf they were desyrouse of the beste, very well decerne them concer­nynge the glosyng of scrypture, by the olde vertuouse doc­tours [Page ccxix] A that had in sondry ages longe before the false expo­sicions and false doctrine of the phariseis or false scribes began, truely constred and expowned bothe the law & the prohetes / by whose exposicions they myght trye and con­troll the false doctrine of the noughty scribes & euyll phari­seis (for good scribes were there and good phariseis to / as by the newe testament appereth). And that there were of olde in euery age suche trewe doctours and expositours amonge the Iewis, maye well appere to euery man that considereth variaunce in the exposicions of the scripture, by the Iewis that were of olde before the byrthe of Christ, and theym that expowned it after.

And also Tyndale saith hym selfe, that betwen the tyme of Moyses and the cummynge of Christe / god styred vppe B an hundred prophetes. And therfore I am sure of the re­menaunt besyde the .xii. that we haue, he meneth for some, that kinde of doctours and expositours that I speke of or elles I wene he wyll cum shorte of his whole summe, and lacke fyue of his hundred.

And thus thoughe god dyd nat prouide so fully for the chyrche of the Iewis, as for the chyrche of Christe / as in whiche he hathe prouided and promised to dwell hym selfe for euer: yet prouided he for it so sufficiently, that they myght therin be saued and entre heuen when it were after open / and that in euyll doctrine and supersticiouse tradi­tions, they coulde nat be dampned, if they were desirouse & diligent about theyr owne soule helthe. And al be it that bycause the thynge had than so great difficultie, that ma­ny C for lacke of sufficient diligence perisshed: god of his great mercy suffred not those noughty scribes & false pha­riseis to continue long / but to make an easy way in which no man coulde be deceiued excepte suche as were ouer ne­cligent or maliciouse, but shulde sone be lerned the sure truthe and vndoubted way to heuyn, sent his owne sonne to begynne a new chyrche of a new fasshion, of a nother maner of perfection / in whiche he wolde so be present and assistent for euer hym selfe and his owne holy spirite, and so teche it and so lede it into euery trouthe, that no man coulde be deceiued, but he that wold nat byleue his chi [...]ch / and he wolde make his chirche so open and so well knowē, that no man coulde but know hit, excepte suche as of ma­lice wolde nat knowe hit. And yet as I say, tyll hym selfe [Page ccxx] dyd set vp his chyrche / the sinagoge was the very chyrch / A and with suche as were nat wyllyngly blynde, was kno­wen for the very chyrche of god diuided from all the world byside, by goddes law, by gouernours of his assignement by trewe prophetes, trewe precheours and miracles, for all the false prophetes and false precheours that were therein byside. And the right faithe was lerned no where els. A [...]d who so had gone out of that chyrch except onely into Chri­stes / hadde gone wronge.

And thus it appereth lo, that concernyng the synagoge euyn at the comynge of Chryst / Tyndale hath here wonne lytell grounde to buylde hys purpose vppon / but that euen there was yet at that tyme the very chyrche and a chyrche also knowen. And therfore when he goth now ferther and resembleth it vnto the knowen catholyke chyrch of Chryst B though they were lyke: yet were Tyndale ouerthrowen. But now when ye shall here the remanaūt ye shall se Tyn­dale fall euer deper and deper in the myre. For lo thus crepeth he forwarde lyke a crabbe.

Tyndale.

In lyke maner is the clergye crepte vp in to the sete of Chr [...]ste and his [...]p [...] ­stles by succession / not to do the dedes of Chryste and his apostles, but [...]or lucre onely / as the nature of the wyly f [...]e is to gete hym an hole made with an other bestes labour, and to make merchaūdyse of the people [...]yth fayned wordes, as Peter warned vs before / and to do accordynge as Chryste and all his apost [...]es prophecyed, how they sholde begy [...]e and [...]ede out of the ryghtewaye all them that dyd not loue to folow and lyue a [...]ter the treuth.

More.

Tyndale here good reader playnely cōfesseth hym selfe,C that the clergye be those whiche (though he call it crepyng) be by succe [...]syon here in erth comen into the seate of Chryst and hys apostles. Now can not Tyndale nor wyll not I wote well saye naye, but that whyle Chryste entended not that hym selfe and hys apostles sholde for euer personally dwell styll here in erth conuersaunt wyth vs in lyke maner as they were whyle they lyued here among vs / and yet en­tended that hys chyrche here in erthe sholde alwaye haue amonge them techers and prechers / syth he entended that hys chyrche sholde as Tyndale agreeth as longe laste in erthe as the worlde sholde endure / & none other hath there ben had synnys Chrystes dayes and hys apostles in chry­stendome, but the clergye by contynuall successyon: then [Page] A hath euer the clergye of euery age bene that parte of Chrystes very chyrche, to whome Chryste specyally spake, spe­keth, and euer shall speke these wordes, [...] Go ye and preche the gospell to all creaturs. And also these wordes: who so hereth you hereth me / and who so dyspyseth you dyspyseth me. And these wordes also, [...] who so receyue you receyueth me / and what so euer cytye receyue you not, Sodome and Gomorre shall be more easely delt wyth then that cytye in the daye of iugement.

And also sithe they must be the techers / it foloweth that they be & must be that parte of his chyrche, to which parte these wordes were also specyally spoken: [...] I shal sende you the holy goost whiche shall teche you all trewthe and lede you into euery trouthe / and I am with you my selfe vnto [...] B the worldes ende.

For though god in these wordes promised to sende his spirite, nat into the clergy onely but into his whole catho­lique chirche / nor to be with his clergy onely, but also with his whole catholique chirch / nor to lede his clergy only in­to euery trouth, but the lay peple of his chirch also: yit sith he ꝓuided specially the clergye to be the prechers, of whose mouthe the lay people shulde here the trouthe / by meane of which herynge with theyr owne good endeuo [...]r, god wold hym selfe wryte it in the herers hartes / whiche ordre of cū ­mynge to the faith appereth plainely, by sundry places of holy scripture / as where saint Paule sayth, [...] Faith is made by herynge. And how shall a man here without prechyng / And how shall a man preche but yf he be sente to preche. C And than that a man m [...]st at the heryng do his own good endeuour, Christe saith, [...] Be thou nat an vnbileuer but a byleuer. And that he thā writeth hym selfe in the hart wit­nesseth the prophete Ieremy: [...] I shal write my law in theyr hartes. In whiche place he sayth spekynge of the chirch of Christ, Euery man shall nat teche his neighbour, [...] but they shall all be the scholers of god, and I shall write my lawe in theyr hartes: he meaneth nat that there shall be no pre­chynge, for that were ye wote well contrary to the wordes of saynt Paule / but he meneth therby the techynge whiche the precher techeth, without whiche sainte Paule sheweth that they can nat ordinarily cum to the faithe, is yit no te­chyng wherof any fru [...]e can cum / but if god therwith write vpon the hert, whiche he neuer faileth to do yf the party do [Page ccxxii] hys parte, and be not by hys neglygence or frowardenesse A the lette.

And all be it that these wordes of the prophete be spe­cyally spoken for the dyfference, bytwene the olde law that was called the lawe wryten, bycause that Moyses recey­ued and delyuered the lawe by wrytynge / and the new law wherof Chryste neyther receyued nor delyuered any parte by wrytynge: yet maye those wordes well serue for thys purpose also, syth the trouth of them is also in thys poynt veryfyed / to whych trouth saynt Poule subscrybeth, [...]. [...]rint [...]. 12. where he sayth that no man can say and confesse our lorde Iesus but by the holy gooste.

Now these thynges I saye beynge thus, though god wryte in the hartes of euery sorte of hys catholyke chyrche as well the laye people as the clergye, as well women as B men, and so teche them inwardly and l [...]de them into euery necessary trouth: yet syth the precher muste haue it ere he preche it / and muste preche it ere the herer here it / and the prechers by Chrystes order muste be, or at the leste wyse by Tyndals owne confessyon in dede be thorow chrystendom none but the clergye / nor of trouth hyther to none but the clergye haue be, nor as appereth by many playne places of scrypture none but the clergye maye be the ordynary my­nystres of goddes holy wordes and sacramentes vnto the people / it muste I saye vppon Tyndals confessyon nedes folow that of all the wordes of god before remembred, whyche so euer our sauyour sayed vnto hys whole chyrche, yet euer he sayd it pryncypally to the clergye and so by Tyn­dals owne cōfessyon, syth that the clergy be the successours C of Chryst and hys apostles / and be for the gouernaunce of Chrystes chyrche now in hys and his apostles place: Tyndale is bounden by Chrystes worde to receyue them, here them, and obaye them. Aud in that he wyll not so do, but in stede of receyuynge them refuseth them, in stede of herynge them mocketh them, and in stede of obayenge them despy­seth them and persecuteth theym, and teacheth hys false heresyes contrary to the treuth that Chryste hath by hys holy spyryt accordyng to hys owne promyse taught them: he is fallen I saye into the maledyccyon & curse of Chryst, that hath ordeyned them / and on Tindals hed falleth that ferefull worde of Cryste, [...]ucae. 1 [...]. He that hereth you hereth me, and he that despyseth you despyseth me / and he that hereth not [Page ccxxiii] A the chyrch, take hym for a publicane & a very painym / and in better case shall Sodome and Gomor be,Matthe. 13. [...] than he shall at the day of Iugement.Luce. 1 [...]. And thus hath Tyndale denoun­ced his owne dampnacion hym selfe, plainely pursuynge vpon his owne confession.

Now if Tindale wyll paraduenture say, that it is in the clergy now as it was in the scribes & phariseis in Christes tyme / and that as they and that people were thā fallen frō the trewthe into false errours, so be now the clergy and the christen peple: I haue all redy shewed him the plaine scriptures, in which god hath made many suche plentiouse pro­mises of his assistence with his holy spirite in his chyrche, perpetually to kepe it from all dampnable errours, by te­chynge it and ledynge it into euery trouth / that though he B suffre many great piecis of people to fall out therof, and so lytle & litle the body to be minisshed & made a small flocke in comparison, till his pleasure shalbe to increace it againe yet shall he neuer neither suffer it to be distroyed / nor the flocke that remaineth how many braunches so euer the de­uyll blow of, to be brought vnto the scarcite either of faithe or vertue, that the sinagoge of the Iewis was at Christes cummynge / though there neuer was any tyme long to ge­ther, nor neuer shall there be / but that in Christes chyrche as longe as it dwelleth in erthe there shalbe many nought, yit shall alway the doctrine of his chyrche with which hym selfe hath alway promised to be, [...] & lede it into euery trouth, be so good and so sure, that vnto those that shall be well wyllynge to lerne the trouthe, it shall alwaye be knowen C where they may lerne it / & that for the clerynge of all doub­tes and auoidyng of all errours, it shal euer be trew to say that the chyrch is as saint Paule saith,1. [...] [...]. the pylar & the fote or groūde / that is to say the sure strengthe or fastenynge of the trouthe. And this chyrche must be that knowen catho­lique chyrche / of whiche from age to age the scripture hath ben receiued, and the people taught / and not a chyrche vn­knowen of onely good men or electes onely, in whiche is neither precher nor people assembled to preche vnto, nor sacramentes ministred by any man as a ministre of that vn­knowen chyrche, nor people of an vnknowen chyrch to mi­nistre them vnto / among whom can be no suche assēble [...] for no man can know where to call a nother, nor how to know another yf they cam togyther by happe.

[Page ccxxiiii]And thus I saye that neyther can Tyndale stande by A hys vnknowen chyrche, nor for his purpose suffycyently resemble the catholyke chyrch of Cryst vnto ye synagoge of ye Iewys, nor the clergye of the tone to the scrybes and pha­ryseys of the tother / syth god gaue these two chyrches not lyke begynnyng / nor Moyses that was the lawyere & be­gynner of the tone, was not lyke vnto Crist the begynner & lawyer of the tother / nor the promyses of god concernyng his assystēce & preseruynge, were not lyke in the tone chyr­che & the tother. And yet by Tyndale, god had so lytell re­garded his great promises in that point, that where as the scrybes & pharyseis had ben but a whyle in respecte, & god had sent the synagoge sundry prophetes, & Cryst hasted to come because they shold not deceyue lōge: god had suffred ye catholyke chyrch of his own onely bygotē sonne to be as B falsely deceyued & wurse to, & ferther to be ledde out of the ryght way into errours & into dāpnacyon, more then this viii.C. yere togyther, without any man sent to shewe them the ryght vnderstandyng of scrypture & the ryght way, by any such mene as the peple myghte perceyue that the man were comen frō god / but one of them alway varyenge fro the doctryne of an other and all varyenge fro the doctryne of all the sayntes, whom god had proued hys messengers by myracles / wherof these men shewed none at all, and yet the moste parte euer as they were examyned and oppossed, abiured theyr owne doctryne to. And thus as I saye Tyndale can not resēble the clergye of Crystes chyrche to the scrybes and pharyseys of the Iewys chyrche.

But yet yf Tyndale stycke so sore thereto, that he wyll C nedes haue theym lyke / and whyle he can neuer proue it, wyll yet wyth greate wordes and othys happely to, bere me downe ryght styll in hande it is so: let vs to stoppe his mouth with, graunte hym for thys onys that it were so / & se than what he coulde yet gete therby, that for his purpose were well worth a flye.

Though it so were in dede / yet must Tyndale be boūdē to obaye theym perde, as ferforth at the leste as Chryste cō maunded the Iewys to obaye the tother.

Than yf Tyndale wyll saye that it can extende no fer­ther, then euen barely to as farforth as they teche & preche the gospell truely / and that euery man and woman whom they teche and to whom they preche, maye saye not onely [Page ccxxv] A to one of them that he constreweth the scrypture wronge & techeth the people false, but also that the same techynge of that one man beynge examyned and affermed for trewe by the whole clergye assembled to gyther, ye and by the pryn­ces and the lordes, and by bothe the lerned and vnlerned laye people to, maye yet tell them vppon Tyndals mouth or Luthers, that they lye euerychone / & all the clergy false­ly constreweth the scrypture, and all the temporaltye fo­lysshely foloweth theyr construccyon / and so the tone blynd wyth malyce ledeth the tother blynde wyth foly into the dych of dampnacyon / and there they lye tomblynge to gy­ther, whyle thys lyghtsome elect of Tyndale that shall tell all the chyrche thys tale, seeth playnely the trouth / and is illumyned by Luther, Tyndale, frere Huyskyn, or Suyn­glius, B and lawgheth the foly of all the knowen catholyke chyrche to scorne: yf Tyndale come to thys poynt, he wyll at the leste wyse euer gyue vs leue to resorte to the Iewys synagoge, wyth the scrybes and the pharyseys, to whyche he resembleth vs.

Now let vs thenne ymagyne that Tyndale as he was borne hethen and chrystened in England, so had ben borne a paynyme & cyrcumcysed in Hierusalem, foure yere before the byrth of Christ, by the reason that beyng at yeres of dyscrecyon, & heryng of the stories & the temple & maners of y Iewys, he had of deuocyon sodaynly fallen into theyr sy­nagoge, and dwelled in Hierusalem / wheruppon yet after hys cyrcumcysyon consyderynge that there were amonge them dyuers sortes & sectes, as pharyseys and Saduceys, C and scrybes and leuytes, and prestes, and laye people / and though they were all Iewes and agreed in cyrcumcysyon, and came of olde all of one stocke, yet be now seuered a sunder in doctryne and in bylyefe, and that not in small thyn­ges but in suche thynges as the one secte dyd reken and accompte the tother to stande in greate errour and damp­nable: what wolde Tyndale haue done in thys case? wold he wythout any other reder haue taken the bokes of theyr scryptures into hys owne hande / and therof wythout any credence gyuen vnto any man, pyke out the trouth by hym selfe? he sholde haue therin a very hard worke / and were very lykely to frame hym selfe a newe fayth in many great thynges, agreyng wyth no man but wyth hym selfe. Then shal he fynde also dyuers coūsayles in the same scriptures, [Page ccxxvi] forbedynge hym that folysshe proude fasshyon of study & A [...]ernynge / and byddynge hym that he shall not lene vnto hys owne wyte. [...]

Then wold he of lykelyhed haue had recourse to them, and enquere of them the solucion of those dowtys. For out of the chyrche or synagoge of the Iewys, it is not lykely yt euer he wolde haue loked to haue ye treuth of those dowtes determyned, whyche dowtes ryse vp theyr lawe and vpon the construccyon fo theyr scryptures.

And also consyderynge the myracles that god hadde so greate and so many very oftentymes shewed in euery age for that synagoge, and that in that synagoge some conty­nued styll, suche as hym selfe had sene in the pole of the tē ­ple seruyng for the sacryfyce: he myght styll haue thought that in the synagoge of the Iewys, bothe had bene & then B were yet, the very trewe waye both of bylyefe and lyuyng, and in none other chyrche. And then coulde he not dowte but that in y same synagoge, were some good folke alwaye that had the very treuth / of whyche parte of that synagoge yf he myghte happen, he sholde surely know the trouth.

Now semeth me that it shold haue ben no great maystry for hym then to fynde them out. For it is no dowte but that yf he sholde haue taken vnto hym suche as were called cunnynge, twayne at onys at good lays [...]ure, one on the tone syde and an other of the tother / as for ensample on the tone syde the proude pharasy that dyspysed the publycane; and on the tother syde Gamalyell: now where as the proude pharasey wold haue tolde hym for hys part, we haue with vs mayster Tyndale of the scrybes and the pharyseys the C more parte, and we haue men of honeste and good lyuyng, and well lerned in the lawe and in the scrypture, and that are also the rulers / and therfore it is moste reason in the cō struccyon of the scrypture, and the fayth and maners depē dynge theruppon, ye sholde byleue vs: Gamalyell wolde haue tolde hym agayne, ye M. Tyndale / but I am a pha­rysey as well as he / and there are on our syde though not so many, yet pharyseys and scrybes and rulers of the peple to, bothe as good, as honest [...] and as well lerned also bothe in the lawe and in the scrypture, as the beste of all them be. And where he can not hym selfe saye that hys part passeth vs by nothynge but by nomber / I shall proue you that in th [...] nomber selfe they be farre fewer then we / and that yet [Page ccxxvii] A besyde [...] that, we farre passe them in thynges of farre grea­ter wayghte.

For M. Tyndale as late as ye were cyrcumcysed, yet this [...]ote ye well your self / or at the leest wise ye thynk it is so that god hath stired vp among vs syns the time of Moi­ses almoost an hundred prophetes. And surely he hath sty­red vp very many / of whom besyde the .xii. that are accomp [...]ed in parte of our scripture, we haue many of sundry ages passed, in whose bokes we fynd wryten expositions & com­mentes vppon our scriptures / and those men were good & holy men / & for whome god shewed many greate miracles, and for none of our aduersaries he neuer shewed one. And in theyr olde bokes fynde we that in the pointes for which these men and we vary now a dayes, those olde prophetes B and interpretours of the scripure were of the mynde that we be, and the people of theyr tymes to, till that these men of the tother side brought in this newe doctrine whiche is vntrewe, but euyn now of late in comparison of the longe tyme in whiche the contrary was taught by holy men, and bileued by the people afore. So that this beynge wayed & considered / we passe them in nombre, tyme, and miracles / that is to say beside the lengthe of tyme and the nombre of men, we passe theyr parte by one whose eternitie passeth all tyme, & whose infinitie passeth all nombre, that is almigh­ty god hym selfe / which hath for thexpositours of our part, many times by miracles declared his fauour against those that expowne the scripture on theyr parte, for whom he ne­uer shewed none.

C For as for the myracles don in the temple, [...] or in the temple pole, they can nat draw to theyr parte agaynst vs / sithe they be nat shewed to declare the trouthe of any particular man / but onely to gyue knowledge that the chyrche or sinagoge of the Iewys, is the chyrche of god here in erthe / in whiche as well we as they, that is to wyt as well the tr [...]w as the false, as well the good as the bad be for the while togyther, tyll Messias come that shall make a new chyrche, a greater and a better [...] and the trew from the false moche better knowen to.

I doubte nat but Tyndale shulde at that tyme amonge the Iewis in Ierusalem haue herd his doute disputed and debated thus. And than coulde he nat with any good rea­son haue douted, but that the false phariseis had ben well [Page ccxxviii] answered by the trew / and so shulde he haue knowen euyn A than of the very chyrche there, whiche parte he shulde haue bileued, though the thing had sum difficulty there, bicause the sundry sectes abode styll to gyther / but y [...] it the continu­aunce and succession of the trouthe from the begynnynge, shulde into that darkenes haue cast a me [...]ely good [...]ght.

Now yf Tindale wyll here denye me and say that [...]here were no suche holy men of them, that from age to age lefte any suche bokes behynde theym: when so euer he so shall answere me, he shall then here what I shall saye more vnto hym. But as for thys tyme I shall not nede to let therfore.

For though there had not bene suche in dede [...] nor that Tyndale coulde not haue harde any man in Hierusalem at that tyme, that coulde haue told hym that tale & proued his tale trew: yet shal Tindale neuer be able to w [...]hstand B it, but that yf it had ben so answered and so proued, he had ben than well and wyth good reason satysfyed. Agaynste whyche yf he hadde not rebelled, but endeuored hym selfe for hys owne [...]rte to be plyable to the trouth / god sholde haue wroug [...]t wyth hym into the full consent and bylyefe therof.

Now saye I than, that syth that a [...]swere yf [...] myghte haue bene proued trewe, sholde & of reason ought, [...]o h [...]ue contented Tyndale at that tyme in Hierusalē, concernyng the chyrch of the Iewys: he shall neuer auoyde it here, but that in the knowen catholyke chyrche of Chryste though we leue of the promyses of god made vnto thys chyrche,Matt [...]. 1 [...].28. by whyche promises it appereth clerely that he wyll n [...]ue [...] suffer it to come to suche a confu [...]yon or dyf [...]ycultye / ye [...] yf it C it dyd and were in that poynt lyke [...]nto the chyrch that the Iewys had agaynste the commy [...]ge of Chryste, infected by many false folke wyth false doctryne, and the scrypture adulterate and vi [...]iate wyth false gloses and wronge exposycyons / and that they whyche so hadde marred all, were crepte vp in to the place of Chryste and hys apostles, and were waxen a greate deale the more parte of those that had the authoryte in theyr handes / and therby had mysse ledde the people bothe in to wronge bylyefe and wronge wayes of lyuynge / makyng them to wene that they dyd well whē they dyd nought: yf it were I saye comen in the catholyke chyrch euyn vnto this poynt / whyche thynge god kepyng hys promyses afore remēbred were more then twyse impossible [Page ccxxix] A to happen / yet yf it so were in dede as Tyndale lyeth and falsely sayeth it is, yet vnto folke that longe to know the trouth, it could nat be but perceyued easyly whiche doctrine were the troethe / that is to wyt whyther theyrs that thus were crepte vp and had falsely taught, or elles suche trew men as wold rebuke and reproue them / and teche the people the contrary, and constre the scripture otherwyse

wherby shuld it be perceyued wyll sum man say, surely [...] well, and playnely by this way.

God hathe sythe the dethe of Christe and his apostles, styred vp in his knowē catholique chyrche I dare well say, many mo than an hundred prophetes / whom he hath with moo than a thousande myracles declared to be his messan­gers. Now of these holy doctours and prophetes we haue B the bookes of euery age, sum frome the dethe of Christes apostles euyn vnto our owne tyme. Now myght it than by theyr bokes be perceyuyd, that these folke now crept vp as Tyndale sayeth by succession into the place and sete of Christ and his apostles, as the scrybes and pharyseys were at Christes cummynge crepte vp into the sete of Moyses / dyd in doctrine & exposicion of scripture, agree with those olde holy doctours and prophetes of euery age and tyme / or els contempned and contraryed them [...] and in fayth and lyuynge began a new dyuerse & contrary doctrine of theyr owne, in thynges necessary to saluacion, or peryllouse to­ward dampnacion. And than yf they so dyd, and that there cam other that wolde call men home from theyr euyll doc­tryne and from theyr false exposicions of scripture where­vpon C the false doctrine dependeth, vnto the olde doctryne and olde trew declaracion of scripture / in whiche those old holy doctours / and as saynt Paule sayth prophetes vpon scripture, dyd consent & agree: by this marke I say myght it be perceyued & knowen, whither parte were the trewe, & whither parte were the false.

Let vs now thā settyng for ye whyle all other markes asyde, of whiche there are very many: let vs I say consyder but this marke alone / for euē this marke alone shalbe suf­ficiēt to dyscerne & know the chyrch now for the trew part, and Tyndale and Luther and all theyr sectes for the very playne false.

For al [...]e it that Luther in the begynnynge professed in hys wrytynge, that he wolde stande for the profe of hys doctryne, [Page ccxxx] vnto the tryall of those olde holy doctours and pro­phetes A of euery age / wenynge that men for the delyght of the newe schole maters, neglected the olde holy doctours, and lysted not to loke vppon them: yet when he sawe hym selfe deceyued, & hys deuelysh doctryne by the wrytyng of y old holy sayntes of euery age brought out on euery syde, vtterly throwen downe & ouer whelmed / then began he to chaūge his tale and sware from them, & set theyr authoryte clere at noughte, and wrote that he cared not for tene Au­stayns, nor for an hundred Hieroms / nor for as many saynt Cypryanys. For he sayd he was sure that he had hys doc­tryne from heuyn / and that the scrypture what so euer all they sayed, was playne and clere for hym.

And thus though some of these folke be glad to catche a patche of an olde sayntes sayenge somtyme, yf they may B mangle it and make it seme to serue any thynge for them: yet maye ye clerely perceyue by theyr mayster Martyn Luther hym self, that they can not say nay them selfe, but that the consent of the olde holy sayntes, is wyth the catholyke chyrche, playne agaynste theyr deuelysh doctryne.

And thys poynt them selfe so clerely perceyue to be per­ceyued and knowen / that they begyn to make in a maner mockes opēly / and gyue the people counsayle to gyue lytle credence to the olde holy sayntes wrytynges / & they scoffe at them that agaynste suche heresyes alledge them / and in thys maner they [...]este and saye in theyr sermons: men laye forth now a dayes vnto you for the profe of theyr doctryne the olde sayntes, and call them fathers / but we laye for our doctryne the Euangelistes, and apostles, and Chryste hym selfe / and these be graundfathers. And therfore as they cry C vnto you fathers fathers, we crye vnto you graūdfathers graundefathers whyche are myche more to be byleued thē those fathers.

Here is lo a goodly false folysshe fallace, to begyle the poore vnlerned people / wyth turnyng theyr myndes from the poynt that is in questyon, and make them gase & muse vppon an other thynge / and wene that the clergye wolde haue them thynke, that the old holy doctours were more to be byleued then Chryste and hys apostles them selfe. where as in dede the questyon standeth in thys, whyther the olde holy doctours and sayntes whome we call the fa­thers, [...]e better to be byleued in the construccyon and the [Page ccxxxi] A vnderstandynge of Chryste and hys apostles and the olde prophetes to, whom we be cōtent that these men call graūdfathers and great graūdfathers to / or els these yong new naughty nephews, that make them selfe graciou [...]e godly, and wyse, yt they can tell all thynge from afore the wo [...]lde was wrought, & theyr fathers so gracelesse & so folysh, that they neyther had grace, lernynge, nor wyt to perceyue any thyng at all, what y wrytyng of theyr graūdfathers ment.

Also that these folkes doctryne can not agre wyth the olde holy doctours / appereth playn, by thys that these m [...]n teche & renew the self same old roten heresyes, whych those holy doctours by theyr full consent & agreme [...]t cōdempned [...] both in great assembled coūsayls, & by theyr owne bokes seuerally made agaynst thē, as agaynst theyr h [...]r [...]si [...]s y the [...] B now teche agaynst fre wyll, agaynst presthed, ag [...]nste pe­naūce, agaynst y other sacramētꝭ, agaynt vowes, agaynst holy dayes, & fastynge dayes, & specyally the [...]ent, agaynst generall counsayls, & agaynste the catholyke chyrche and many an other abomynable heresy besyde.

Of this cōsent of the holy doctours & sayntes agaynste theyr heresyes, cometh this enuy & hatred that these here­tykes bere vnto thē all agayn so great, that lest men shold bycause they be sayntes haue theyr doctryne the more in reuerence & estymacyō, they haue deuysed a new heres [...], wherwith they wolde make men byleue that there were none of them all yet in heuen. And lest theyr malice & enuy toward them shold appere, & the cause also wherfo [...]e they bere i [...] [...]f they shold so saye, be no mo sayntes but those y were wry­ters C & doctours of the chyrch: they let not to saye the same vtterly of all the remanaūt, our blessed lady & all, y excepte our sauyour hym selfe, there is none yet in heuen at all [...] neyther in body nor soule. And lest men myght thynke that yf there were purgatory, some went frome thense to heuyn amonge / that is one of the causes, why they put that there is no purgatory neyther. Then syth they se that yf go [...] gyue yet before domys day vnto no man, rewarde & blysse for his fayth & good lyfe, it were hard to thynke that beyng so lyberall, good, and mercyfull as he is, he wolde be more prone to punysshe then to reward / & for theyr euyll dedes or infydelyte before that day, send men into payne therfore tyll domys day: they wolde haue the worlde byleue there were none hell neyther, for any soule of man.

And then leste they sholde be dreuē to confesse that the [...] [Page ccxxxii] byleue the thynge, whyche yf they durst for shame shewe I A wene they byleue in dede / & wyll hereafter come forth with­all yf they may gete onys theyr other heresyes in mennes hartes fastely fyrste confermed: leste they sholde before I saye be dreuen to confesse, that they byleue the soule to be mortall, and vtterly dye wyth the body / they saye for the whyle that vntyll domes daye, they lye styll all and slepe / as Luther wryteth playnely in a sermone vppon the go­spell of the ryche gloton and Lazare.

And therfore yf we tell theym of that story of Abraam, Diues, & Lazarus, the twayn in reste and welthe the thyrd in fyre and flame, the storye that Cryste telleth hym selfe / they call it but a parable, and almost make a potte at it.

Then all apparycyons they mocke at / and all the myracles they blaspheme, and say the deuyll doth all. And thus B whyle thaffeccyon of these heretykes to the olde heresyes, maketh them to declyne from the olde holy doctours that euer condempned those heresyes, and agaynste theyr exposycyons construe the scrypture wronge: the deuyll hathe dreuen them downe myche ferther, and made theym fall to blasphemye agaynste goddes sayntes and hys myracles, and gyue the honour of goddes great workes vnto the de­uyll,Matth. 12. as the very wurst sorte of the Iewys dyd / and vnto all theyr olde heresyes to lynke an whole chayne of newe, suche as the worste and the moste shamelesse sorte of heretykes that euer were of olde, wolde haue ben yet ashamed to thynke vppon.

If Tyndale denye that hym selfe and all theyr sectes be agaynst all the olde holy doctours, and all the olde holy doctours agaynste them: he can not saye naye but that be­syde C the abomynable weddynge of frerys and nonnes, Luther confesseth hym selfe in his babylonica, that all the old doctours are agaynste hym, in his heresye that he holdeth agaynste the canon of the masse.

And so for conclusyon of thys poynt, that Tyndale may se what he hath wonne wyth hys resemblynge of the catholyke chyrche vnto the synagoge of the Iewys that was at the comynge of Cryst / and the clergy of the catholyke chyrche to the scrybes and pharyseys that then were in the sy­nagoge / he hath now by occasyon of that resemblaūce luc­kely founden out, that thoughe these heretykes dyd styll dwell wyth the chyrche, and neyther departed awaye them selfe nor the chyrche dyd vomyte and spew them oute / but [Page ccxxxiii] A that the trew and the false though they taught dyuersely and con [...]rary, contynued yet styll to gyther as they dyd in the synagoge of the Iewys: yet this one marke alone of the olde holy doctours of the catholyque chyrch, condemp­nynge the heresyes of Tyndale and Luther and all theyr other sectys, clerely wolde gyue a lyght, by which the trew doctryne myght be knowen frō the false. And therfore this marke alone as opēly marketh Luther, & Tyndale, & Hu [...]skyn, and Suynglyus, and all the rable of theyr folowes, for open & playne heretykes / as yf the deuyll had his owne handes marked eche of them an. H. in the forehede, with a fayre hote yron fet out of the fyre of hell.

This one marke whiche Tyndale hathe here caused to be founden out, doth yet ferthermore shake of all his ray­lynge B and scoffynge, and reiecteth them and casteth theym all backe agayne, & maketh them euerychone to fall vpon his owne pate.

For by thexposicions of the olde holy sayntes / we know that the wordes of saynte Peter / with whiche Tyndale here rayleth vpon the chyrche, [...] were by saynt Peter spoken agaynst suche heretykes, as taught opinions agaynst the chyrche / as playnely appereth by many olde doctours of the chyrche.

And also the very wordes of saynte Peter wyll declare the same. For he sayth that those false lying maysters, shal be the bryngers in of dampnable sectys. wherby it well appereth, that he speketh agaynst those archheretykes, which agaynst the one catholyke chyrche, whiche in the necessary C pointes of the fayth agreeth and euer hath agrreed well in one to gyther, by that holy spyryte of god whiche by Chri­stes promyse ledeth it into euery necessarye trewthe, [...] & ma­keth all of one mynde in that house / do brynge and haue brought an hundred sundry sectys of her [...]syes erroneouse false and vntrew, wherof neither any one consenteth with a nother, nor amonge theym all one man almooste with a nother.

And where saynt Peter sayth, that many men shall fo­low theyr dampnable abhominacions / that is so clerely v [...] ryfyed in these heretykes nowe, that all the worlde hathe cause to wepe that it is so well spied.

Also where he sayth that by them the way of trouth shal be blasphemed / is very manyfest & open, spe [...]ally in these [Page ccxxxiiii] new heretikes as Luther, & Tyndale, Huyskyn, & S [...]in­glyus A / whiche nat onely blaspheme amonge them the olde holy doctours & sayntes, & the myracles of god, wrought and shewed by them, for the stablysshynge of the trouthe: but also Christe hym selfe in the blessed sacrament / whiche is as hym selfe sayth, both the way and the trouth, and the lyfe therwith.

And whan he speketh of auaryce and fayned wordes / as for fayned wordes they vse none other, yf playne fals be fayned / as appereth by theyr playne false heresyes agaynst the blessed sacramentes.

And as for auarice, though many of them fall at the last to beggery, by the very vengeaūce of god full sore agaynst theyr wyllys: yet se we well inough how gredely the pede­lynge knauys that here brynge ouer theyr [...]okes, gryspe B about an halfe peny, and had almoste as leue hange vp his euangelycall brother as lese a peny by hym.

And syr Tho. Boulde, reported here theyr lyd [...]ralytye very well. For besyde myche other euangelycall auatyce, he tolde vs here, that all be it he sawe golde greate plentye in Tyndals purse / yet coulde he gete but one small pece to go out of Almayne vnto London on hys errande, bothe to sow hys euangelycall sede, & to stele an euangelycall boke out of a poore frerys lybrary / and when he hadde stolen it then brynge it into Almayne to hym. And for all thys long labour of hys goynge, & his besynes of tyllynge and sow­ynge, and besydes that hys lygyer demayne in stelynge, wherof a man myghte happe to fall to hangynge / he could as he sayd gete of Tyndale no more for all thys gere, but C one poore pece of golde.

Now as for makynge of merchaundyse, that saynt Pe­ter speketh of and Tyndale here layeth agaynst the clergy of the catholyke chyrche / what merchaundyse these herety­kes make I can not well tell. But thys ys well knowen, that when our euangelycall Englysshe heretykes fall in acquayntaunce beyonde the see wyth some of our merchaū tes factours / they mylke them so euangelycally, that whē theyr maysters call theym home, they gyue theym a very shrewed rekenynge.

And surely as all the wordes of saynt Peter with why­che Tyndale here iesteth agaynste the catholyke chyrche, were by saynt Peter spokē agaynst these heretykys onely: [Page ccxxxv] A so wyll these wordes of hys at laste be verified playne vp­pon them, in whyche he sayeth that the iudgement ceaseth not, but is redy a good whyle a go agaynste them / & theyr perdycyon slepeth not but waketh and grouneth for them.

But as for that that Tyndale sayth, that the clergy cre­pynge into the seat of Christe and his apostles by successy­on, do as the wyly foxe dothe, whose nature is to entre into an hole made with an other beest: I can nat well perceyue what he meneth by his wyly symylytude of the wyly foxe. For sythe he sayeth they cum into the place by successiou / he layth nat any inuasiō, or intrusion, or other vnlawfull c [...]mynge therin to. And as for theyr wylynes in folowyng the wylynes of the foxe, whose nature is to get hym an hole made with an other beestes labour: he can nat meane any B thyng to the purpose that I can perceyue / but yf he meane to mocke the wordes of our sauiour hym selfe, which sayth to his apostles them selfe, bothe for them selfe and all that shulde by succession in theyr offyce folowe theym that they shuld in a mane [...] folow the nature of the foxe in that fasshi­on. For he sayde vnto them [...] I haue sente you to repe that that ye laboured not / for other men laboured, and ye haue entred vpon theyr labours.

And therfore I can nat dyuyne what mistery Tyndale meaneth by his folowynge of the wyly foxe, whose nature is he sayeth to get hym an hole made with an other bestes labour. Nor I purpose nat to lese y tyme in musyng what he may meane therby, nor to be so curyouse & inquysytyue as to [...] enquyre whither peraduenture he haue founde out C any suche fasshion in Saxony, that theyr prestes, theyr fre­rys, and theyr monkes vse there in theyr maryages that wyly maner of the wyly foxe. How be it in dede suche as cum thense / vnasked saye they do, and comonly can do none other.

Now where he sayth that the clergye do entre for onely lucre / he taketh vppon hym to iudge the power of god, in iudgynge euery mannes mynde / but yf he thynke it a suf­ficient profe that they cum therto for nothyng els, bycause they say nat take away the landes and all the fruites from the benefyce, or els I wyll none of hit. As thoughe the a­postle sayd nat hym selfe, that reason wold they shuld haue theyr lyuyng by the autre / ye and though he counsayled thē to be content with bare meate and drynke [...] and clothynge / [Page ccxxxvi] yet sayd he that one of them doynge theyr dewtye,Timoth. 5. is wur­thy A the double that another man is.

Nay sayth Tyndale. For they gouerne not well, nor do not as saynt Poule saythe, sowe spyrytuall thynges. For they be sayth Tyndale false techers, and do begyle & lede out of the ryght way, all them that haue no loue to folowe and lyue after the truth.

Let Tyndale here speke out, and tell vs whyche treuth is that that the people loue not to folow and lyue after / & that therfore god suffereth the clergye to lede them out of the ryght waye far wronge. Thys treuth is good chrysten reader a very false treuth / wherof not onely y clergy now but thapostles also theym selfe, euer clerely taughte the cō trary / as that folke shold not praye for theyr fathers soules nor do penaunce for theyr own synnes, nor honour the blessed B body of Cryste in the blessed sacrament, nor set by no sacrament ellys, but call incesteouse lechery good and law­full maryage, haue holy vowes in derysyon / & in dyspyght of matrymony and vowed chastyte bothe to pollute theym bothe at ones, wedde freres and nonnes to gyther.

Lo these thynges & such other are the sure tryed truthes ye wote well, that Tyndale wolde haue the people byleue & lyue after / and the spyrytuall thynges whyche he complayneth that the clergy wyll not preche. whych spyrytuall seed bycause they wyll not sowe / he wolde they shold repe none of our carnall corne / nor not onely be rekened vnworthy to receyue as saynt Poule sayth, the dowble auauntage that an other man sholde, but also to receyue so myche by Tyndales wyll, as an othe [...] mannes olde clowted shone. And C yet the marke that we spake of, of the olde holy doctours & sayntes, marketh hym from the chyrche for a playne here­tyke in these pestylent poyntes to. And that they all so do / he knoweth hym selfe so well, that I thynke as shamelesse as he is he wyll not for very shame say naye. But now runneth he forth and rayleth on ferther thus.

Tyndale.

And in lyke maner haue they corrupte the scrypture, and blynded the ryght waye, wyth theyr owne constytucyons, wyth tradycyons of domme ceremo­nyes, wyth the takynge away the signyfycacy [...]ns of the sacramētes to make vs byleue the worke of the sacramentes fyrste, wherby they myghte the bet­ter byleue in workes of theyr owne settynge vp afterwarde.

A More.
[Page ccxxxvii]

Now wolde I that Tyndale shulde here haue rehersed with what con [...]tytucyons of theyr owne the chyrche hathe corrupted the scripture, and blynded the ryght waye. How be it he may say that I am to blame to byd hym reherse thē agayne he hath reherced thē so often all redy / as orderyng that men shulde haue matyns and masse, and kepe the son­day and sum other holy dayes, and that they shuld be boū ­den to kepe fastynge dayes, and namely as Tyndales fe­low Brightwell sayth, whom sum folke call Fryth, the fo­lyssh fast of the Lent / wherby there is taken away the euā ­gelycall lyberty, that folke may nat eat f [...]essh on good fry­day for compassion of Christes passion.

And with thys ordynaunce be they wondre wrothe / as B though the chyrche ordayned that folke shuld distroy them selfe with forberynge theyr meate / and kyll them selfe with abstynence. And yet are the lawes of the chyrch mittigated and made easy with exceptions and libertyes almoost moo than ynough / prouydynge for sycke men, chyldern, olde men, laborers, pylgrymes, nursys, wymen with chyld [...] and pore folke, and well nere as farre as men myght go / but yf these heretykes be angry that the chyrch had nat prouyded for gorbely glottons to, that they myght cast in and cast vp gorge vpon gorge, and with a full bely before they be an hungred, pampre in theyr pawnches a fresshe.

And yet in this poynte to, the marke that I spake of [...] of the olde holy sayntes, doth marke these men for heretykes. For these ordynaunces are nat bygon by the clergye that C now is, nor by the clergy of this eyght hūdred yere passed / but hathe ben bygon and continually kepte and obserued [...] from aboue a thousande yere, ye fourtene hundred yere, ye from the dayes of the apostles them selfe / and bygan also by them selfe, as it not onely doeth appere playne by other autentyque wrytyng, but verely well also by the very scripture it selfe, as I partely haue all redy shewed, and partely shall yet herafter.

Than sayth he that the clergye hathe blynded the ryght waye with dōme ceremonyes. yet aske I Tyndale here a­gayne whiche clergy, and whiche ceremonyes? I saye that in this poynte agayne, the marke that hym selfe made me fynde out, the olde holy doctours and sayntes, marke hym for an heretyke and a lyer bothe.

[Page ccxxxviii]For it is euydent and open, that great parte of the cere­monyes A whiche the chyrche vseth now, were of olde vsed in the tyme of the eldest of them, and before the eldest of them to / and that suche ceremonyes cam from the apostles them selfe. And Tindale neuer brought out yet either boke, lefe, or lyne, to proue vs one wo [...]de of all his bybyll bable trew, that euer the ceremonyes that he calleth now dūme, spake euer in olde tyme so muche as a mumme, more than they do now. Truthe it is yt men myghte then make allegoryes of them, and so may they now, and so many prechers do, & so doeth that good man that made the booke of Rationale diuinorum / with which kynd of allegoryes Tyndale cum­meth furthe in his boke of dysobedyence, in suche a goodly fasshion as it semeth y but yf the preest alway tell that tale to the people, he wolde haue the people pull the preest from B the auter, and the amys from his hed.

But to what purpose he maketh all this brablynge vp­pon dumme ceremonyes, appereth well vppon the nexte worde after, where he sayth that the chyrche hathe taken a­way the significacion frō the sacramentes. yet I aske Tyndale agayne which chyrche, and which significacions? Let vs go agayne to our olde marke / and I dare laye a wager with hym, he shall fynde no mo signyfycacions of the sacramentes in the bokes of the eldest of al y olde holy doctours and sayntes, than I shall fynde hym in the bokes of euery age nowe this two or thre hundred yeres from Eester last passed vpwarde, and so forth in the other ages next aboue that, tyll he cum to the olde tyme of that holy doctour whō so euer hym selfe wyll alledge. And than it well appereth C parde, that the clergy that now is, hath taken away no sygnyfycacyons of the sacramentes at all.

we wyll also demaunde of Tyndale, sythe he sayth that the clergy hath taken away the sygnyfycacyons of the sa­cramentes / whyther were those sygnyfycacyons that they haue takē away, necessary to saluaciō or nat. If they were nat / thenne is there not so greate losse of theym. And on the tother syde yf they were so necessary, that wythout the knowledge of theym the thynges that we be com­maunded to do, and whyche we maye nat without disobe­dyence of good leue vndone, be bycomme noyouse, sup­erstycoyuse, and dampnable / thanne sythe as many suche sygnyfycacyons as be wrytten in the scrypture, do re­mayne [Page ccxxxix] A styll and be preched: the tother of whose takyng a­way Tyndale complayneth beyng necessary for saluacion to be knowen, were neuer wryten in scrypture.Actuū. 5. And then falsefyeth hym selfe hys owne doctryne, that no such necessary thynge was by thapostles lefte vnwryten.

If he saye that mo then haue theyr specyall sygnyfyca­cyons wryten in scrypture, be not necessary: therin wyll not onely the marke that we spake of of the olde holy sayn­tes, marke hym for an heretike / but so wyll the very scryp­ture to, by whyche it appereth that all the seuyn sacramentes were by god gyuen to hys chyrche, as thynges by god­des instytucyon necessary for mannys saluacyon / in suche wyse at the lest wyse as the neglectynge and contempte of the grace that god geueth in theym, is able to brynge the B dyspyser to dampnacyon.

But it appereth clerely what holy purpose Tyndale hath in thys mater. For he speketh not so myche of the sygnyfycacyons, for any ca [...]e that he careth for the sygnyfycacyons / but onely bycause he wolde haue vs [...]ake the sacra­mentes for no thynge ellys, but onely for the bare sygnes of some loste sygny [...]ycacyons / and therfore as thynges not onely noughte worth and superfluouse, but also supersty­cyouse and noyouse.

And in thys wyse wolde he make vs wene, that for the sacramētes we were neuer the better / and that to take them for any other thynge then a bare token, and to thynke that the blessed sacrament of the aulter were the very body and bloude of Cryste, or any thynge ellys then wyne and cake C brede set vp for a bare sygne, as a tauerners busshe or ta­pysters a [...]e stake, were a very superstycyouse thynge / and not onely peryllous he sayth for the thynge in it selfe, but also bycause it myghte happe to be a meane to make vs byleue, that the thynges whyche the chyrch calleth good workes, were any thynge frutefull or merytorious. And which workes be those trowe ye? fastyng, & watchyng in prayou [...] & doynge of almoyse dedes. were it not a perylouse thynge to byleue that suche thynges wolde do vs good? beynge done as the catholyke chyrche techeth vs to do them, to byleue that none of them all c [...]n gete vs any rewarde in heuē of the nature of the dede it selfe, but onely bycause the lybe­rall goodnesse of god hath appoynted such a rewarde ther to, thorow the merytes of our sauyours passyon / and that [Page ccxl] yet we maye well fere in all our good dedys, suche imper­feccyon A vppon our owne parte in the doynge, that it shal percase haue no suche rewarde at all / and for all that feare, hope well and pray therewith, that the goodnes of god supply vpon his parte, the dew perfectyon requysyte that lac­keth vppon our owne parte. Is nat this doctryne of suche bylyefe and trust in good workes so peryllouse, that rather than men myght be the rather drawen into good workes therwith, Tyndale sholde make vs take all the seuē sacra­mentes and caste them clene awaye / whych he sayth in mo places then one, be now not onely frutelesse, but also harm­full and perilouse? In whyche poynt euery man marketh well, that yet agayne the marke that we spake of, the comē consent of the olde holy doctours and sayntes, marke thys man for a very myscheuouse heretyque.B

And euer thys the farther he walketh, the deper is this marke prented in hys forhed / that he can neuer wander so farre oute of the waye, but the deuyll wyll well inough by that marke perceyue hym and chalenge hym for hys own. For lo thus goth he forth,

Tyndale.

And with false gloses whiche they haue patched to the scrypture in playne places to destroye the lyterale sense, for to set vp a false fayned sense of al [...]egoryes when there is none suche / and therby they haue stopped vp the g [...]tes of heuen, the true knowlege of Cryst, and haue made theyr [...]wn belyes the dore. For thorow theyr belyes m [...]ste thou crepe, and there leue all thy fatte be­hynde the.

More.

If Tyndale haue yet rayled inough / glad wolde I be C to haue hym come onys to some reason. For as for hys cre­pynge thorow folkes belyes, wherof he so sore cōplayneth: I wolde he had declared how he crepte in, and into whose mouth he crepte, and by what crafte he scaped the teeth for bytynge, and how longe he lay in the bely, and howe he gate downe thorow the smale guttes, and in the crepynge oute what stykkynge his face founde byneth, & how myche grece he lefte there behynde hym / & for the bely greace that he lefte behynde hym, whyther he brought oute any gutte greace wyth hym. For suche folyshe testynge and raylyng as he maketh here vpon the clergy, myght any knaue haue made vppon the apostels in the begynnynge, when euery man that came into chrystendome, dyd geue all that euer [Page ccxli] A he had in to theyr handes all to gether, and kepte hym selfe ryght nought, [...] nor durst not vppon payne of deth after the vengeaunce of god fallen vppon Ananyas and Saphyra for kepyng parte of theyr owne a syde for them selfe. Then myghte lo some suche as Tyndale is now, haue ray [...]ed & sayed to any that were wyllyng to come in to chrystendom, Brother beware of the apostles, for thorowe theyr belyes must thou crepe, & there leue all thy fatte behynde the.

And as it semeth, some suche felow bygan to sowe such seed of euyll rumour amonge ye people agaynst thapostles euyn than, and set some suspycyouse or inquyete myndes vppon grudgynge.

Nor I can not now so greatly se, who is cōpelled to be at so great coste wyth the clergye. Suche as haue of the [...]r B owne make no great exaccyons bysyde that I he [...]e of. And suche as nought haue of theyr owne, yet is no man comp [...]lled to gyue them aught but of hys owne deuocyon & che­ryte / whyche yet such heretykes haue in some places not a lytell coled, and in some places vtterly quenched [...] when the people se theym so bestely to breke theyr vowys and wedde.

Now where he sayeth that the clergye vseth to dystroye the lyterall sense of the scrypture wyth false fayned allegoryes / this is falsely sayd of hym. For the allegorye neyther destroyeth nor letteth the lyterall sense / but ye lyterall sense standeth whole bysyde.

And where he sayeth that there is none allegorye sense C as Luther and he saye bothe, and that in mo places then one: yet shall oure olde marke of olde holy doctours and sayntes, marke hym for an heretyke agayn. For I am sure he shall not lyghtely fynde any of those olde, but that he vsed allegoryes.

Luther and Tyndale wolde haue all allegoryes and all other senses taken awaye, sauynge the lytterall sense a­lone. But god whose plentuouse spyryte endyghted the scrypture, foresaw full well hym selfe that many godly al­legories holy men sholde by hys inspyracyon at dyuers ty­mes draw out therof. And somtyme he endyghted it, & our sauyour hym self somtyme spake his wordes in such wyse, that the letter had none other sense then mysteryes & alle­goryes / as comēly all his parables be, of which he expow­ned some him self & some he expouned not, but hath left thē [Page ccxlii] to be expowned by holy doctours after hys deth / and some A of them hath he holpē dyuerse to expoune dyuersly, as his hygh wysdome saw that dyue [...]s good frute sholde folowe and ensew theruppon.

Somtyme also though the lyterall sense be full good / yet dothe god gyue the grace to some man to fynde oute a ferther thynge therin. whyche sence god that endyghted the letter, dyd when he made it fore see [...] and more dyd sette therby then by the sense that immedyately ryseth vppon the letter / whych letter hys hygh wysdome so tempered for the nones, that suche other sense myghte be perceyued therin and drawen out therof, by suche as hym selfe had deter­myned to gyue the grace to fynde it.

[...]ut [...]r [...]. 25.And for ensample our lorde sayth in the booke of Deu­teronomy, Thou shall not bynde the mouthe of the oxe as B he goth in the flowre and thressheth the corne. The very letter is of it selfe good / and techeth men a certayne reason and iustyce to deale well and [...]ustely, euyn wyth the very bestes that labour wyth them / & to abhorre wythout good cause eyther to pyne them or payne them. Now thoughe this sentence be good [...] and the Iewes were bounden by the letter of the law, to order theym selfe in that wyse towarde theyr oxen / seynge no ferther therin, nor some so farre ney­ther peraduenture: yet dyd thapost [...]e fynde out an other secrete sense therin / and that sense suche as in respecte therof he set the tother at nought / and shewed that god ment therby that the preste which laboreth spyrytually in his offyce, muste haue his temporall lyuynge therfore. And to proue that the spyryte of god entended thys sense and vnderstandynge C therin / [...]e sayth, [...]. Corinth. 9. Careth god awght for the oxen / as though he wolde saye nay. And yet in dede god careth and prouydeth for the lyuynge of euery lyuynge thynge. For it is wryten in the psalme,Psalm [...]. 146 that god geueth the mete to the bestes and to the yonge byrdes of the crows that calle vp­pon hym. And our sauyour sayth hym selfe, Loke ye vpon the byrdes of the ayre,Matt [...]. [...]. they neyther sowe nor spynne / and yet your father that is in heuyn fedeth them.

And thus it apereth that god careth for the fedynge of all that euer he hath made.

But yet saw saynte Poule, that god so myche cared for the prestes leuynge, aboue that he careth for the oxes le­uynge / that in respecte of the tone compared wyth the to­ther, [Page ccxliii] A god cared not for the oxe at all / but wolde we sholde vnderstande therby, that we sholde in any wyse prouyde that the preste whyche laboreth wyth vs in spyrituall besynes, shold haue of vs his temporall leuynge. And I wene Tyndale is euen angre wyth saynte Poule for that expo­sycyon.

Now are there many other textes in the olde law, which in lyke wyse receyue lyke exposycyon, by goodly and frutefull allegoryes, as in the olde holy saynts bokes appereth. All whych will Tyndale here haue wyped oute in any wise and wyll haue none allegoryes at all.

Holy saynt Hierome expowneth by an allegorye the text of scrypture, [...] that the holy prophete Dauid by the co [...] ̄sayl [...] of his physycyons when he waxed very colde for age [...] toke B to wyfe besyde all his other wyues, the fayrest yonge mayden, that coulde be founden in all the countre aboute, to do hym pleasure in his presence by daye, and lye in his ar­mes and kepe hym warme a nyghtes. Thys texte was trew in dede. And yet doth that holy doctour saynt Hi [...]rom in all that euer he can, drawe from the consyderacyon of the letter, to the lokynge vppon the allegorye. For be the wordes of the texte neuer so trewe / yet thoughte as [...]t se­meth that blessed holy saynte, that god caused that storye to be wryten in the scripture, rather for the frute that folke shall take by some good holesome allegorye that god wold in to some man inspyre theruppō, then to make vs [...] & studye and dyuyse vppon the onely sample of kynge D [...] ­uyds dede, wherby some olde husbandes wolde lerne to C let his olde wyfe lye, and take colde in a bedde alone, and [...]m self take a yonge prety prym to bed to kepe his bakke warme for physyke.

Fynally I dare well say, that the allegoryes wryten vppon the texte of holy scrypture be very frutefull, what so euer Tyndale say / and ellys wolde god neuer haue suffred so many blessed holy men bystowe so myche tyme aboute theym / but that hym selfe both foresaw the frute [...] and de­uysed those textes in suche wyse also, that thorow good folkes laboure wyth the swete warmth of his owne inspy [...]a­cyon, such holsome frute shold plentuously sprynge th [...]rof.

Go me now thorow all these poyntes agayn, that Tyndale hath vnder the name of the clergy, layed agaynste the catholyke chyrche, crepynge vp in to thapostles place re­specte [Page ccxliiii] of lucre, ledynge in a wronge way, begylynge the A people, makynge of constytucyons, vsynge of ceremonyes takynge away the sygnyfycacyons of sacramētes, and makynge of false gloses / and ye shall fynde good chrysten re­ders of all these fautes that they falsely ley to our charge, theyr owne bosoms full.

For theyr archeheretykes accompte theym selfe for the prechers, and chalenge the apostles place, not by succession but by inuasyon. For they go and preache and be not sent / and though pryde prykke them forth wyth lybertye to le­chery, yet not wythout lucre neyther. For some one of them puttynge oute hys felowes such as wyll be religyouse and contynue chaste, kepeth all theyr leuynge alone, sauynge for an harlot taken vnto hym to be called hys wyfe, and gete vppe a couent of bastardes betwene theym / and then B they begyle the people wyth theyr false preachynge, & lede them a very wronge way excepte the strayght wey to hell be the ryght waye to heuen.

Now as for cōstytucyons wherof they wold haue none amonge vs / theym selfe haue ben fayne in some cytyes of Almayne as late as they be bygonne, to make mo constytucyons and more bourdenouse to the people, more greuous and more sore to kepe vppe theyr heresyes wyth, then the chyrche hath made in many yeres to kepe vp the trew chry­sten fayth.

Ceremonyes also whyche amonge vs they mokke and call them dūme / Marten Luther hym self Tyndales great mayster, after that he had lefte theym of, was by the profe and experyence dreuen lytle and lytle to take them almoste C euerychone vppe agayne, sauynge fastynge lo. For that ceremonye frere Luther wyll none in no wyse, le [...]t yt sholde feble hys fleshe and let hym from getynge of chyldren, and hyndre his harlot of temynge.

Now touchynge the sacramentes, where of they say the chyrche hath taken away the sygnyfycacyons / these heretykes take from theym all the thynge whyche they chiefly sygnyfye, that is to say, the grace inuisyble that god geueth wyth them, and wherof he maketh them an effectuall tokē and instrument.

And ouer this of the seuen they take away fyue quyte, & leue the tother twayne frutelesse / and from the tone take they the swete carnell wythin, the blessed body of Chryste, and leue the people the shalys.

[Page ccxlv] A Then as for truste in workes / the catholyque chyrche scantely teacheth so bolde trust in abstynēce, almoyse dede, prayour, and chastyte, as theyr archeheretyques teache in glotony, spoilyng of chyrches, despyte of all holowes, and in relygyouse lechery.

Fynally for makyng of false gloses / them selfe do mych more then that. For they where they lyste boldely deny the texte / and wyll take for scrypture but what they lyst theym selfe / for so reiecte they dyuerse partes whyche the whole catholyque chyrche doth receyue / and so myghte they by the same reason reiecte the remanaunt to, and so they wyll I wene at laste, and some haue done all redy.

And then as for false gloses, they make theym selfe the worst that euer were wroughte. As Luther to make men B wene that matrymony were no sacrament / where the kyn­ges hyghnes as a moste erudyte prynce and a moste fayth­full kyng, in his moste famouse boke amonge many other great authorytees & reasons, preced hym sore wyth that that the gloryouse apostle saynte Poule calleth yt a great sacrament hym self:Ephes. 5. Luther I say, letteth not in this wyse to glose saynte Poules wordes, and say that saynte Poule peraduenture sayed yt of his owne hed.

Is not there an hamer hed more mete to make horshone in hell, then to constre the scrypture in erth, that is so harde as to make such gloses to that gloryouse apostles wordes? wherin who so lyst to folow Tyndale, maye set at short all that thapostle teacheth / and say he sayd that but of his own mynde, and not accordynge to the mynde of god.

C And yet syth this is Luthers owne glose, and his owne answere vnto other men: Luther hym selfe and Tyndale also, and all his other dyscyples, myght well and wythout blasphemy be answered wyth the same in all the harde places of saynt Poule wyth theyr false glosynge, wherof they wold destroy the fre wyll of man, & lay the weyght of theyr owne synnys to the charge of goddes ineuytable prescyēs, and theyr owne ineuitable destynye.Matth. [...].1 [...].25.

Now what false gloses be they fayne to fynde agaynste good workes,Luc [...]e. 11. to corrupte an hundred playne places of holy scrypture,Eph [...]s. 6. by whyche they be clerely declared for thyn­ges specyally pleasynge to god,He [...]ae. 13. and thorough the menys of hys goodnes hyghly rewardable in heuen and mery­toryouse.1 Petri. 3. Apoc. 2.14.22. 2. Corinth. 5.

[Page ccxlvi]what false gloses be they fayne to fynde agaynst holy vo­w [...]s A of chastyte,Psalmo. 75. to corrupt so many playne places of scry­pture,1. Timoth. 5. as vtterly condempne to the deuyll theyr fowle fyl­thy wyddynges and incestuouse lechery.

Fynally fayne they not false gloses to corrupt the gos­pell, and dreue god oute of christendome, when they wolde expell Chryste out of the sacramēt of the auter? what care they how they glose the apostle, whē they care not how shamelesse they shew them selfe in settyng so false and folyshe gloses to the playne open wordes of our sauyour Chryste hym selfe.

For where he sayd of the blessed sacrament, This is my body: Martyne Luther Tyndales olde mayster gloseth yt thus,Matth. 25. This is brede and my body.

Then frere Huyskyn and Suynglius Tyndales two B new maysters, declynynge from yll to worse / glose yt in this fa [...]hyon, This is my body, is as myche to say, as this sygnyfyeth my bodye. And so make they Christe to declare hym selfe, as though he wold tell vs thus: I sayd in dede that this is my bodye, and so I made myne apostles wene, and so haue I made all good men beleue this fyftene hundred yere / but all this whyle haue I hadde no luste to tell my chyrche the trouth, bycause there where so many good men in yt that wolde not vppon truste of fayth alone, for­bere from all good workes, but were very besye with them by reason of theyr wronge vnderstādinge of the scrypture / whyche I lyked not to declare playnely to them, bycause so many of them dyd vow chastyte and kepte yt. But now that I haue foūden a nother maner sorte of holy men, that haue vowed chastyte and breke theyr vowe, and wyll do C no suche good workes as myght make theym truste vpon any rewarde in heuen, nor forbere any euyll workes wher wyth they shulde walke to hell / but lyue at lyberty, and do what they lyste, and byleue as they lyste, and loke to lepe strayght to heuē by the promyse that I neuer made them: to theym haue I therefore nowe shewed euen the ve­ry botome of my stomake / and not yet all at ones / but fyrst I tolde Luther & his secte that in the sacrament was bothe my very body & very brede there wyth, bycause they sholde not eate fleshe wythout brede for fere of bredynge wormys in the babys belyes. But now sone after synnes, I tolde to frere Huyskyn and Swynglius, and bode them tell it out [Page ccxlvii] A vnto Tyndale that where as I sayde, This is my bodye, and this is my bloode, I ment no more but that yf sygny [...]yeth my bodye and my blood, and is nothynge ellys in dede but euen a cuppe of very wyne & therwyth good cake brede alone / but yf yt be as Tyndale douteth wyth ouer myche waterynge tourned from brede to starche.

These goodly gloses lo do these heretyques make, and these blasphemouse folyes they preache vnto the people, as boldely and as solempnely as though they hadde herd them in heuen, & lerned them of goddes owne mouth / and wold seme to be sente from heuen in stede of Chrystes apo­stles and of our sauyour hym selfe / and wyth testynge mokkynge and scoffynge, wene to rayle out euery mannys rea­son saue theyr owne. For thus lo wyth his symylytude of B the scrybes & pharysyes and synagoge of the Iewes, Tyndale rayleth on agayn [...]te the prestes and the clergye, & the whole catholyque chyrche of Chryste.

Tyndale.

And suche blynde reasons as ours make agaynste vs, made they agaynste Chryste, sayenge Abraam is our father; we be Moyses dyseyples. Howe knoweth he the vnderstandynge of the scrypture, he neuer lerned of any of vs. Onely the cursed vnlerned people that knowe not the scrypture byleue in hym / loke whyther any of the rulers or pharysyes do byleue in hym.

More.

Tyndale as he before hath hytherto lykened the catho­lyque chyrche of all chrysten people, vnto the synagoge of the Iewes / and the scrybes and pharysyes that were then, vnto the preachers and the clergye that are nowe: so doth he now crepe a lytle farther, and resembleth hym selfe and C such other heretyques hys felowes, vnto the person of our sauyour hym selfe / and sayth the reasons whyche we nowe make agaynste hym and hys felowes, are suche blynde reasons as the Iewys made agaynste Chryste. For answere wherof this dare I boldely saye, that as syke and as fe­ble as the synagoge then was to whyche he resembleth vs, and as farre as they then were walked out of the way, and as euyll as then the scribes were, and as false as then were the pharisyes to whome he resembleth all the whole clergy now wythoute any one man excepte: yet yf our sauyoure Chryste to whome he resembleth hym selfe, had then hadde no more to saye for hym selfe then Tyndale & his felowes haue now to say for them self, he hadde I promyse you ben [Page ccxlviii] very sore opposed, and that euyn by the very scrypture it A selfe, and by Crystes owne doctryne to.

For yf Tyndale and hys felowes had bene there than them selfe, and our sauyour and hys apostles away / when he wyth hys felowes wolde haue rebuked the Iewes and haue reproued theyr lyuynge, they sholde haue founden in Tyndale and hys felowes fautes inough, so greate and so syghtly, that they myght haue sayed vnto them very well, Take the beames oute of your owne eyen ye hypocrytes,Matth. 7. ere ye go aboute to take the motys out of other mennys. For neyther had Tyndale nor any felow of hys, bene able to saye as Cryste sayed, whyche of you can reproue me of synne.Iohan. 8. And when they wolde fynde fautes that were none / then so to haue answerd them ferther and confute them as Cryste dyd.B

For vnto Tyndale yf he had reproued the serybes and the pharyseys doctryne, and shewed that they both taught euyll for good, and reproued as euyll some thynges that were not euyll, and some thynges also that were in dede good / when he wolde haue proued them this by scrypture, they wolde peraduenture haue stycked wyth hym vppon the ryght vnderstandynge of the scrypture. wherin yf he wolde haue loked to haue bene better to be byleued then they / me thynketh that afore ryghte reasonable folke, he sholde haue had an harde parte to defende / sauynge onely for one thynge yf he could and wold haue layed it agayn [...] them. And that is yf he wolde haue sayed and coulde haue proued vnto them, that the good holy Iewys of olde tyme before them in sundry ages, had expouned the scryptures after hys prechynge and cōtrary vnto theyr [...]. Thys poynt C wolde I promyse you sore haue appalled them.

But then wyll thys poynte as sore appall Tyndale in thys debate bytwene hym and vs, bycause all the old holy sayntes from Crystes tyme to ours, haue euer expowned the scryptures in the necessary poyntes of fayth as the chyrche now doth, contrary to Tyndale and all the whole rable of all the sectes of heretykes.

But now for as myche as I am not sure, whyther Tyndale wolde so saye to the Iewys or not: let vs therfore hardely take Tyndale thense agayne / and lette our sauyoure Cryste alone wyth them / and se whyther he haue any bet­ter answeres to make the Iewys there, the [...] Tyndale hath [Page ccxlix] A here to make vs.

Cryste, yf they wolde loke to be better byleued in the construccyon of the scrypture then he, and wolde aske hym of whome he lerned it syth he lerned it not of them / could well tell them and well proue them, that hym selfe alone oughte more to be byleued therin thenne they all together. For he coulde shewe theym that all those scryptures fro Moyses downe warde, dyd all prophecye of hym, and that he sholde be the techer of theym, and the chyefe prophete, [...] and the trewest precher / and that therfore Moyses had commaun­ded them to here hym / and a greater then Moyses the fa­ther of heuyn hym selfe, [...] hadde commaunded them to here hym, and that the spyryte of god had lyghted vppon hym in wytnesse therof and that he was hym selfe goddes own [...] B sonne, and wyth hys father and hys holy spyryte one god hym selfe and egall. And to make them the better perceyue it / he could do and wolde do and in dede so dyd he such d [...] ­des in theyr owne syghte, as well by hys owne power and of hys owne authoryte as by the inuocacyon of [...]is father, suche dedes I saye as none coulde do but god.

All thys lo coulde Cryst for hym selfe answere vnto the blynde reasons that the Iewys made vnto hym.

And now lette Tyndale in lyke wyse wyth helpe of all hys felowes, answere the same thynges for hym selfe to our blynde reasons that we make agay [...]ste hym [...] & th [...]nne make hys answeres good, that is to wyt proue them trew / and then wolde we gyue hym good leue to put out all ou [...] eyen, and make vs all blynde in dede.

C But Tyndale can not go that waye, but wyll lede vs a lytell out of our waye / & speke agaynste the whole catholyke chyrche, and thenne turne it to the clergy alone, & som­tyme to the pope alone. And he wyl speke agaynst the faith of the chyrche now, and make vs forgete that all the olde holy sayntes fro Chryste vnto oure dayes, bothe taughte and byleued the same, and all the chrysten people b [...]syde. And thus neyther ha [...]ynge the thynges to laye agaynste the fayth of the catholyke chyrche that were well layed a­gaynste the synagoge of the Iewes, nor hauynge no suche defence for hym selfe as hadde oure sauyou [...]e for hym selfe to whome he wolde be resembled: he wyndeth hym self [...] so wylyl [...] thys way & that way, and so [...]yfteth in and oute, and wyth hys so [...]e shyftynge he so ble [...]eth ou [...] eyen [...] that he [Page ccl] maketh vs in maner as starke blinde as a catte / and so maseth A vs in the mater, that we can no more se where aboute he walketh, thenne yf he wente visyble before vs all naked in a nette.

And yet I promyse you eyther is my brayne starke blynde in dede, or ellys doth Tyndale playe blynde hobbe aboute the house. For he falleth sodainly vpō a conclusyō / towarde the profe wherof as farre as I can spye, he hath nothynge to wched. And yet by the wordes of hys conclu­syon he leueth vs in lyke dowte as he dyd before. For lo as though [...]e had before well and playnely proued it / in thys wyse he sodaynly concludeth, wyth as many dowtes as wordes.

Tyndale.

Wher [...]re the scrypture truely vnderstanden after the playne places and genera [...] B artyc [...]es of the fayth whyche thou fyndeste in the scrypture, and the ensamples that are gone before / wyll alway testyfy who is the ryght chirch.

More.

who herde euer suche an other wherfore? wheruppon doth hys wherfore depende? hath he any thynge sayed yet, wheruppon it muste folowe, that the scrypture and the artycles of the fayth wyth ensamples goone before, do teche vs whyche is now the chyrche, he that seeth it let hym say [...] it / for surely I se it not.

And yet are also these wordes in theym selfe so blynde, that yf he sayde trewe, standynge yet of all these markes all moste euery worde bytwene these heretykes and vs in questyon debate and controuersye / tyll he make vs those que­styons more clere eyther they or we be styll as blynd as we C were, and styll fele and fumble about to fynde out the chyrche as we dyd.

For fyrst where he sayd the scrypture truely vnderstan­den / haue they not brought that poynte in questyon. And then how meaneth he now truely vnderstāden: as the chyrche vnderstandeth it, or as heretykes. And yet are not he & we well agreed vpon that poynt neyther / but lyke wyse as that we call trewly, he calleth falsely / so loke whom we call heretykes he calleth the chyrch, and whom we call the chyrche he calleth heretykes.

After the playne places / whych be those, and to whome playn? the places that the tone part calleth playne, the tother cal­leth croked / and those that the tone calleth darke the other [Page ccli] A calleth open and playn. And that place that the tone sayth is playne for one thynge, the tother sayth is playne for the clene contrary.

The generall artycles of the fayth / whyche be those? For he wo­teth well that they and we be not yet agreed vppon theym. For we byleue matrymony is a sacrament / Tyndale sayth he can hym selfe make suche a nother sacrament of a nette or a kay. we byleue that the sacrament of the auter is the very body and blood of Chryste / Tyndale sayth yt is but wyne and cake brede. Tyndale byleueth yt is lawfull (yf he byleue as he sayth) that freres may wedde nunnys / and we byleue as all good men haue euer byleued, that suche maryage is very vnlawfull lechery & playne abomynable bychery. what are we then the nere towarde the knowlege B of the chyrche by the articles of the fayth, yf those artycles be broughte in as myche dowte as the chyrche? we seme to haue nede fyrste to fynde oute well the trew chyrche, to be sure of a trewe teacher to teache vs them, bycause saynte Poule sayth that the chyrch is the pyller & sure grounde of [...] trouth.

Nay sayth Tyndale yt shall not nede. For the generall artycles be those that thou fyndest in scrypture. whyche thou? to whome speketh he / for that the tone parte eyther fyndeth or weneth he fyndeth / the tother parte sayth is not there / & whē yt is shewed, yet he sayth he seeth yt not. And when the tother telleth hym that he is then very blynd, the tother telleth hym agayne nay, but that on the tother syde hys syght rather daseth and weneth he seeth, that he seeth C not, and taketh one thynge for twayne.

For we thynke we fynde in the scrypture that confyrmacyon, holy order, and anelynge, [...] be great and holy sacra­mentes / Tyndale sayth we fynde yt not there. we thynke we fynde in very palyne scrypture, that in the sacramēt of thauter is the very blessyd body of Chryste / Tyndale wyll yf nede requyre, not let I am sure to swere, that there ys nothynge there but cake brede.

we thynke we fynde in scrypture, [...] that men are bounden to kepe theyr holy vowys, and that freres therefore maye not wedde nunnes / Tyndale wyll not let to say we lye all, and that so do all holy sayntes to fro Chrystes dayes hy­therto, that euer sayd so byfore. Now shall we now agree / what are we now the nere for thys marke.

[Page] [...][Page] [...]

[Page ccxlii]I wote nere also what he meaneth by generall artycles / A for we call generall articles those that y generall chyrch byleueth / and specyall, those that be byleued but of some spe­cyall folke. If he wolde take yt thus, this wold ease mych of the matter.

But now I can not tell whyche he calleth generall ar­tycles. For the generall chyrch calleth those parte of the generall artycles, whyche artycles Tyndale sayth be false & no parte of the fayth at all.

yet where he sayth such generall artycles as thou fyn­dest in the scrypture, he muste tell vs onys agayne, whych thou. For betwene the chyrch and hys sectys yt is not fully agreed, whyche bokes be the trewe scrypture. For frere Barns sayth playne, that saynt Iamys pystle is none of his. And frere Luther sayth the same, and setteth not mych B therby, though he wyste well yt were his in dede / and so the sectes take not all for scrypture, that the catholyque chyrche dothe.

Nowe where he speketh of the samples gone afore / he muste bothe tell vs whych ensamples he meaneth, and apply those ensamples also to his present purpose.

And whē he hath so done / then shall ye well see that they s [...]all as all his other markes do, but yf we byleue the comē knowen catholyque chyrche, shew ellys no certaynty of a­ny chyrche at all / but one chyrche to one sorte and a nother chyrch to a nother, and fynally as many sundry chyrches, as there be sondry sectes of heretyques.

And syth not onely no secte agreeth with other, but almost also no man amonge theym all wyth other: all Tyndales C markes be so dyuerse to so many, y they must nedes shewe almost as many dyuerse chyrches, as there are gone owte of the knowen catholyke chyrche not onely dyuerse sectes, but also dyuerse menne.

And agaynst this hath Tyndale none euasyon that can well serue hym / but onely one. And that is, yf he saye that he meneth all his doutfull wordes to be expowned by him selfe / that is to saye, that he meaneth by scrypture well vnderstanden, the scrypture so vnderstanden as hym selfe vnderstandeth yt / and by playne placys, those places that he calleth playne hym selfe / and by generall artycles, those artycles that he calleth generall hym selfe / & that he calleth founden in scrypture, all those artycles and onely those, [Page ccliii] A that he sayth he fyndeth there hym self / and ensamples byfore gone, those ensamples onely that hym selfe lyste to as­sygne, and so applyed as hym selfe lyste to applye them.

And surely yf he meane thus / thys wyll som set an ende in the mater, and shortely ceace all the stryfe, yf all folke a­gree to folow hym / and ellys be we styll yet at as greate stryfe as we were before.

And yet yf he so mene, what nedeth he so longe processe. For then amoūteth all hys tale to no more, but as though he myghte saye, wyll ye knowe whyche is the very chyrch? Surely the very chyrche is euyn whych so euer chyrch my selfe lyste to tell you. And this were ye wote well soone and shortely sayde, and were a very godly conclusyon.

B But now goeth he ferther after the fasshyon of an olde englyssh balad that beginneth, The ferther I go the more behynde. For now in dylatynge and declarynge of hys conclusyon, he addeth one thynge, as the fynall openynge of all in the ende, that vtterly marreth all his mater. And therfore shall ye now here all the remanaunt of thys chapyter at onys.

More.

Though the pharyseys succeded the patryarches and prophetes, and had the scrypture of them / yet they were heretykes and fallen from the fayth of them [...]nd theyr lyuynge. And Cryste and his discyples and Iohn̄ the Babtyste, de­parted from the phariseys whiche were heretykes, vnto the ryght sense of the scrypture, and vnto the fayth [...]nd lyuynge of the patryarke [...] and prophetes and rebuked the pharyseys. As thou seyst how Cryste calleth them hypocry­tes, dysimulers, blynd gydes, and paynted sepulchres. And Iohn̄ called them C the generacyon of vipers and serpentes. Of Iohn̄ thangell sayd vnto hys fa­ther Luke. 1. He shall turne many of the chyldren of Israell vnto theyr lord god / whiche yet before Iohn̄ byleued after a fleshely vnderstandynge in god, and though [...]e theym selues in the ryghte waye. And he shall tourne the hartes of the fathers vnto theyr chyldren. That is he shall wyth his pre­chynge and trewe interpretynge of the scrypture, make suche a spyrytuall herte in the chyldren as was in theyr fathers Abraham Isaac and Iac [...]b. And he shal turne the dysobedyent vnto the obedyence of the ryghtuouse, and prepare the lorde a perfecte people. That is, them that had set vp a ryghtu­ousnes of theyr own, were therfore dysobedyent vnto the ryghtuosnes of fayth shall he converte from theyr blyndnesse, vnto the wysdome of them that byleued in god to be made ryghtuouse / and with those fathers shall he gyue the chyldren egles eyes to spye out Cryst and hys ryghtewysnes, and to forsake they [...] owne, and so to become perfect.

And after the same maner, though our popyshe ypocrytes succed [...] Cryste [...] [Page cclvi] thys new baptyste saynt Luther, geue the world warnyng A byfore his commynge that his doctryne myght be the bet­ter lyked, by that hys person were by prophecy fore knowē and marked. For ellys were there great perell, leste the people yt had thorow false doctryne so longe bene led awry, by leuyng alway to be well saued inough wyth such dyssolute lyuynge, as the worlde had thorowe false doctryne conty­nued so many hūdred yere togyther / were not now sodaynly lykely to gyue eare to the sore and strayghte and harde doctryne of suche an holy spyrytuall man as holy frere Luther is / so fully fastened all vppon the spyryte, and so farre abhorrynge from all flesshely workes, that he wold neuer haue wedded the nonne, nor onys haue layed hys spyrytu­all handes vppon her flesshely face, had he not fyrst felte & founden her frome the too to the chynne, turned all into B fysshe.

And therfore if thys yong saynt Iohn̄ Baptystt he foregoer of these new Crystes, and all theyr new apostles nowe sent by god in so great a message, and for so greate a pur­pose, lyke to fynde the worlde so full of flesshely folke, that suche a spyrytuall man must nedes fynde mych resystence: surely god caused hym to be prophecyed of as the tother olde saynt Iohn̄ Baptyst was.

And therfore yf Tyndale wyll haue Luther taken now for a newe saynt Iohn̄ / as of the old saynt Iohn̄ it was of olde prophecyed by the mouth of Esaie [...] that he sholde be a voyce of one cryenge in desert [...] Make redy the waye of our lorde, [...]saiae [...] 40. make strayght the pathes of our god in wyldernesse: so mus [...]e Tyndale now tell vs by what olde prophete god C hath prophecyed, that he wolde in the later dayes when the fayth were sore decayed, and cheryte greately cooled, rere vppe a frere that sholde wedde a nonne, and frome an har­lottes bedde steppe vp into the pulpette and preche. For but yf he proue hys authoryte the better, eyther by prophecye, or by meruelouse myracle / it wylbe longe of lykelyh [...]d ere euer any wyse man wene, that god wold euer sende any suche abomynable beste, to turne the worlde to the ryghte way, and make a perfyte people.

Now where Tyndale sayth to make vp hys mater with in thys wyse, we departe fro them vnto the trewe scrypture, and vnto the fayth and lyuynge therof and rebuke them / in lyke maner he bryngeth forth now for hys parte another maner thyng in dede then [Page cclvii] A euer he spake of yet. For he sayde wythin thre lynes before, that we haue the scrypture of Cryste and hys apostles, and are for all that fallen from the fayth and lyuynge of them, and are become heretikes, and therfore haue nede of Iohn̄ Baptyste to conuerte vs. Now syth we haue as Tyndale hym selfe here confesseth vs to haue the scrypture of Cryste and hys apostles: whyther wyll Tyndale go frome vs to seke the trewe scrypture? Taketh he the scrypture of Cryst and hys apostles for a false scrypture? He wyl of lykelyhed leue the chrysten countrees and the scryptures of Cryste, & gete hym into Turkay and take hym to Machomettes al­charon, and call that the trewe scrypture / or ellys hath Luther and he some other scrypture in close, whyche he calleth here the trewe scrypture.

B And surely so it semeth they haue. For I am very sure that by our scrypture whyche hym selfe here confesseth for the scrypture of Cryste & hys apostles, he shall neuer whyle he lyueth be able to proue frere Luthers lechery any good lawfull matrymony.

And where he sayth he goeth frow vs to the faythe and liuynge therof / he muste nedes meane some fayth and ly­uynge that is allowed by that same trewe scrypture that he speketh of / that is as it semeth by hys wordes, none of Crystes scrypture nor of hys apostles. And therfore when so euer he luste hereafter to leue of our scryptures, that is as he confesseth the scrypture of Chryste and hys apostles, and medle no more wyth them, as it were well done he dyd not, & onys I wene he wyll not i [...] dede / but wyll for theyr C false fayth and fylthy lyuynge laye forthe some newe scrypture of theyr owne [...] to whyche he sayth they go nowe, and whyche he calleth the trewe scrypture: we wyll then aske hym wherby he can proue theyr new foūde scrypture more trewe then the scrypture of Cryste and hys apostles, which hym selfe confesseth to be wyth the catholyke chyrche / and whyche as it hath alwaye bene therwyth, so shall alwaye remayne therwyth after Tyndale and all that euer wyll walke oute thereof to seke theym selfe some new.

Then sayth he farther, And we rebuke them in lyke maner / that is to saye that saynte Luther, saynte Huchyns, saynt Huyskyns, and saynte Swynglius, in lyke wyse rebuke the ca­tholyque chyrche, as faynte Iohn̄ Baptyste rebuked the synagoge of the Iewes.

[Page cclviii]But now muste Tyndale remembre fyrste, that though A we were all as well worthy to be rebuked as euer was any of them / nor for out lyuynge onely, but for our bylief also: yet were not these bestes such men as yt myght so well be­come in lyke maner to rebuke vs, as yt myght saynte Io­han Baptyste to rebuke the Iewes / both for that he was an holy man and fawtelesse, and therfore merely to fynde and rebuke fautes / and also bycause he was specyally sent by god to rebuke fautes / where as these m [...]n be fauty and fylthy them selfe, and therfore vnmete to rebuke other mē ­nys fautes / nor be not sent by god aboute the mendyng of mennys bylyefe or lyuyng, but specyally sent by the deuyll to marre mennys fayth and all good lyuyng to, both with theyr false poysened heresyes, and wyth thexāple of theyr bolde open defended lechery so horryble and abomynable B byfore the face of god, whose holy sacrament of wedloke they defowle shamfully wyth theyr vow brekyng bychery, that neuer was there bestely wrech byfore theyr myserable dayes so shamelesse yet, that euer durste for shame be sene to attempte the lyke.

And besyde this these folke rebuke vs not in lyke ma­ner. For saynt Iohn̄ Baptyste rebuked the vices of the Iewes, not wyth wordes onely but specyally wyth the sam­ple of his owne vertuous liuyng / where as these rebukers of oure lyuynge,Matthe. 3. lyue theym selfe at the leste wyse as euyll as we.

Saynt Iohn̄ also preached penaunce for synne / but these felowes kepe styll theyr owne synnys them selfe, and call them vertue, and auow the breke of theyr vow for well C done, and theyr lechery for matrymony, & call euyll good and good euyll, whyte blakke and blakke whyte / & teache men to contemne penaunce, and make men abhorre confessyon, and thynke that lytle sorow suffyseth, and satysfaccy to nede none at all, but great synne to go aboute yt.

Thys was not saynte Iohn̄s maner.

Saynte Iohn̄ shewed an nother maner of penaunce, exhortynge to confessyon and harty contrycyon. And how a penytēt shold lyue he declared in his lyuyng / not that he so neded, but to teache wyth his dede that he preached wyth hys worde.

Saynt Iohn̄ therfore lyu [...]d in deserte, and fasted and fore harde, and laye harde, and watched and prayed. These [Page cclix] A folke lyue in greate townes, and fare well and faste not, no not so myche as the .iii. golden frydayes / that it to wyt the frydaye nexte after Palme sondaye, and the frydaye nexte afore Easter daye, and good frydaye / but wyll eate flesshe vppon all thre, and vtterly loue no lenton faste nor lyghtly no faste ellys, sauynge breke faste, and eate fast, and drynk fast, and slepe faste, and luske faste in theyr lecherye, & then come forth and rayle faste. Thys was not the maner of re­bukyng y saynt Iohn̄ vsed. And therfore Tyndale sayth vntrewe when he sayth they rebuke vs after the same ma­ner that saynt Iohn̄ dyd the Iewys.

But now knytteth Tyndale all the mater vp / and shor­tely sheweth in the ende of this chapyter euyn in a few wordes, the thynge that he hath made vs gape after all thys B whyle, sythe the begynnynge of hys whole boke, that is to wytte whyche is the very chyrche. For lo syr thus he sayth.

Tyndale.

And as they whyche departe from the fayth of the trewe chyrche are heretykes / euyn so they whyche departe from the chyrche of heretykes and fals fayned fayth of ypocrites, are the trew chyrche.

More.

Lo good chrysten readers after longe worke at laste, Tyndale hath here in few wordes shewed you whyche is the very trewe chyrche / that is to saye as many as departe out of the chyrche of heretykes.

But hath not Tyndale now brough [...] vs euyn in to the same dowte agayne hath not all our questyon bene all this whyle, whyche is the trewe chyrche / in whyche questyon is C euer more included thys questyon, whych be heretykes / cō syderynge that the questyon is asked for none other cause then onely to knowe whyche be the heretykes that are the counterfeted chyrches.

And now gyueth Tyndale suche a counsayle, as yf one that coulde no good skylle of money and were sette to be a receyuour, wolde aske hym counsayle how he sholde do to be sure alwaye to to take good money / and Tyndale wold aduyse hym to se well that he toke no badde. And then yf he sayd agayne, ye M. Tyndale but I praye you teche me then how I may be sure that I take no badde. Mary wold Tyndale say agayne, for that shall I teche the a way sure inough, that neuer shall deceyue the yf thou do as I bydde the, what is that I pray you. Mary loke in any wyse that [Page cclx] thou take none but good.A

Suche a good lesson lo dyd the tylar onys teache the mayde, how she sholde bere home water in a syue and spyll neuer a droppe. And when she brought the syue to the wa­ter to hym to lerne yt / he bade her do no more but ere euer she put in the water, stoppe faste all the holes.

And then the mayde laughte and sayde that she coulde yet teache hym a thynge that a man of his crafte had more nede to lerne. For she coulde teache hym how he sholde neuer fall, clymed he neuer so hygh, all though mē toke away the lader from hym. And when he longed to lerne y poynt to saue his nekke wyth / she bode hym do no more but euer se surely to one thynge, that is to wytte, that for any haste he neuer come downe faster then he went vppe. Now such a good sure lesson Tyndale teacheth vs here. For nowe to B make vs sure alwaye whyche is the chyrche, he telleth vs that they be the chyrche that come from heretyques / where as the very trew chyrche standyng in questyon, heretykes, that is to saye the counterfete false chyrche, muste nedys stande in the lyke questyon, and be as doutefull as the to­ther. And therfore hath Tyndale in this tale so soyled all the doute, that he hath lefte all euen in lyke doute styll.

Nowe yf Tyndale wyll saye that he hath all redy well & suffycyētly shewed who be heretykes, in that he hath shew­ed whyche was onys the ryght chyrch, that is to wyt Criste and his apostles / and that the catholyke chyrche that now is, is fallen from the fayth and bylyefe of that chyrch that then was, and so be they the heretyques / and therfore the chyrch that was, sheweth the heretykes that be / that is say the chyrche of Chryst and his apostles that was the chyrh C well knowen, do shewe the catholyque chyrche that now is for well knowen heretykes / and therfore Tyndale and Luther, and all theyr felowes, syth they be a company well knowen to haue goone oute and lefte for hatered of theyr false fayth and heresyes this knowen catholyque chyrche of here [...]ykes: yt muste nedes folow, that Luther and Tyndale, and Huyskyn, and Swynglius, and theyr company, be the very chyrche. And so this questyon surely soyled by Tyndale, and openly and playnly without any such doute remanynge therin as is spoken of byfore / and the tylar nedeth not nowe to loke to hys fete at all, he can not fall though he wolde.

[Page cclxi] A Consyder now good reader that yf Tyndale make this answere (for as for other that he myght make, as helpe me god yf I saw yt, I wolde my selfe make yt for hym as ef­fectuall as I coulde) but as I say yf he make vs thys, consyder well then that the whole effecte and pyth of this an­swere is nothynge elles, but that the knowen catholyque chyrche from whych Tyndale cōfesseth hym selfe that they be gone as from heretykes, and whych knowen catholyke chyrche we call the trew chyrch, be fallen frō the trew fayth of Chryste & his apostles, and be by that meanes become heretyques.

And in this poynte though Tyndale to blere oure yien wyth all, vse dyuerse ways to draw our myndes from the very poynt of the mater / and to flater the temporalty, tourneth B all his tale and his raylynge wordes agaynst the clergye: yet in very dede the whole bodye of the chyrche is the thynge that he heweth at, and that he calleth the heretikes. For of spyrytualty and temporalty all is one fayth / and of the whole catholyque chyrche hath from the begynnynge euer ben our mater.

Then consyder I say now, that where he sayth that the catholyque chyrche now is fallen from the fayth of the old chyrche of Chryste and his apostles / we can not denye but that Tyndale so sayth. But then se we well and so we saye agayne and saye therin very trewe, that when Tyndale so sayth he lyeth.

For ye se your selfe that Tyndale proueth thys tale but by hys bare worde, [...]n that we byleue not as he doth, that C good workes are naught worth, and that the sacraments be gracelesse and but bare sygnes and tokens / and yet not so myche neyther by Tyndales tale, but onely dumme ce­remonyes that neyther say nor sygnyfye, and that men do wronge to worshyppe the body and blood of Cryste in the blessed sacrament, and that there is nothynge therin but very bare brede and wyne or starch in stede of brede / & that freres may well wedde nūnys, and such other goodly thynges lyke. whyche false artycles to be trew, he neyther hath proued nor can proue whyle he lyueth, nor all ye heretykes in this world, nor yet all the deuyls in hell.

Now haue we well proued you, that in all suche poyn­tes we haue the selfe same fayth that Cryste and hys apo­stles had and tawght. And in these poyntes we proue that [Page cclxii] the scrypturys of them be on our parte. And yet saye we A also that we be sure therof, by that that Cryste and hys apostles dyd delyuer vs these thynges by mouthe besyde the wrytynge / by whyche we sholde also haue bene sure therof, all though they neuer hadde ben wryten / as we be by that meane sure of some other thynges that were lefte vnwrytē, and onely delyuered by Chryste to hys apostles, and by his apostles to the chyrche, and therin perpetually kept by the spyryte of god, that Cryste accordynge to his promyse sent vnto his chyrche to lede it in to all trouth,I [...]han. 16. and by his owne perpetuall assystence and presence wyth hys chyrche for euer as hym selfe promysed also. Of whyche thynges well knowen and yet vnwryten,Matt [...]. 2 [...]. is for ensample one, that we be bounden to byleue the perpetuall virgynyte of our lady, wherwyth I haue troubled Tyndale onys or twyse here B afore / and hym selfe whyle he labored to wynde oute, hathe so messhed and entangled hym selfe therin, that he hath in the handelynge of that one mater alone, vtterly destroyed the fundacyō of all the heresyes that they haue in all theyr whole Ragmans roll.

An other ensample of the tradycio [...]s wythout wrytyng maye be the puttynge of the water in to the wyne at the masse / wherwyth the kynges noble grace in such wyse handeled Luther, that in answerynge thervnto Luther fareth as one that were fallen frantyke, and sayth now thys now that and woteth not where he maye holde hym / but sayeth somtyme that the water maye be lefte oute or put in as the chyrche ly [...]te to order. And thenne agayne he sayth that it ought to be lefte oute and not putte in, for as myche as it C hath (sayth he) an euyll sygnyfycacyon, that is to wyt tha [...] the pure scrypture is mengled and watered wyth mennes tradycyons / and therfore they sholde he sayth synge masse and consecrate with onely wyne alone, and so by lykelyhed they do therfore suche freres as wedde nonnes.

But holy saynt Cypryan that blessed bysshope and very gloryous martyr / & a man one of the beste lerned that euer wrote in Crystes catholyke chyrche, wryteth playnely .xiii. hūdred yere before Luther was borne, that the water must nedes in, and that Chryste put water in to it at hys owne maundy when he consecrated and ordayned it hym selfe.

And thys blessed saynte Cypryane, thought hym selfe bounden bothe so to byleue and to teche vppon the trady­cyons [Page cclxiii] A of thapostles besyde theyr wrytynges.

Thus wryteth saynte Cypryane contrary to Luthers doctryne clere.

But I can let no man to byleue now whyther of theym bothe they lyst [...]. How be it I se not greately why Luther sholde be better byleued thenne he, but yf it be bycause saynt Cypryane wolde not wedde, and Luther hathe wed­ded a nonne.

But as I beganne to saye, remembre good reader that where as we saye that in the greate varyaunce of oure fay­thes, the fayth I saye of the catholyque chyrche and the fayth whyche these heretyques professe to the contrary, we proue our fayth by the scryptures / and they saye naye, and afferme that they proue theyrs by y scryptures, wherunto B we saye naye: all the questyon for the more parte ryseth, or hath at the leste wyse euer hytherto rysen, not vppon the scrypture selfe, but vppon the construccyon thereof / that is to saye not whyther the wordes were holy scryp­ture or no that were for scrypture alledged, but what was of that scrypture the trewe sense and ryghte vnder­standynge.

For as for whyche was holy and autentyke scrypture and whyche not, we haue be a great whyle very well agreed / sauyng that Luther of late and frere Barns after hym, wolde fayne putte oute saynte Iamys pystle, [...] and saythe it hath no smacke of any apostolyque spyryte,Iac [...]i. 5. bycause it sayth that fayth waxeth dede wythout good workes and hath a playne place also for the sacrament of anelynge. C And Fryth wolde haue out quyte the bokes of the Macha beys, bycause it proueth for purgatory and for the inc [...]rcessyon of sayntes.

And now semeth Tyndale to make a secrete insinuacyō of some other scrypture than Chrystes and hys apostles / whyche other scrypture he semeth to call the trewe scryp­ture / and sayth that from the catholyke chyrch whych hym selfe confesseth to haue the scrypture of Cryst and hys apostles, hym selfe and hys felowes goo nowe to the trewe scrypture.

But now lettynge hys other new trewe scrypture alone tyll he reherse vs some therof / euer hytherto all our debate and varyaūce hath bene about the exposycyon / eche parte [Page cclxiiii] layenge to the others charge false glosynge of the trewe A scrypture.

Then syth the dowte bytwene theyr fayth and oures, resteth vppon that poynt: consyder good chrysten reader that we proue that the consent of all the olde holy doctours and sayntes of euery age synnys chrystendome fyrste began vnto frere Luthers owne dayes, is vppon our parte agaynste them.

And this haue I proued. what saye I, thys haue I proued? nay thys haue (I say) them selfe proued, in that theyr hed capytayne Luther prowdely reiecteth and shaketh of the sayntes wyth hys sleue lyke flyes by the whole hūdred at onys / & in one place in hys boke of Babilonica spekyng of the canō of the masse, wherin he cōfesseth that they stand all agaynste hym, he setteth not a rysshe by theym all, but B shaketh them of all at onys, & sayth the scrypture is playn vppon hys syde though they saye all the contrary.

And in thys poynt all the [...]able of theym folowe theyr mayster so farre, that they fall to blasphemynge of sayntes to take awaye theyr authoryte.

And yet yf thys profe wyll not satysfye theym, but that they be so shamelesse as to saye yet styll that the olde holy doctours and sayntes are agaynst vs with them: let them of so many tell vs one, that euer so cōstrewed the scripture, that a man professynge onys vowed chastyte, was for all at hys lawfull lybertye to wedde a vowed professed nonne. I speke of professed and vowed, bycause of suche as pro­fesse wythoute perpetuall vowys, as is the relygyous howse of saynte Gerytrude at Nyuell, and other lyke in C other places. Lette theym I saye amonge all the olde holy doctours, shewe so myche as some one / of whyche I wote well they can not fynde one amonge them all.

Then consyder good chrysten reader, that syth we haue vppon our parte agaynste all theyr sectes, all the olde holy sayntes agreynge wyth vs in bylyefe, though we be not lyke theym in lyuynge, there is no dowte but that in fayth the comen chrysten people by all these agys agreed with vs also.

For how canne we knowe the fayth that in euery tyme hath bene, but by the wryters that were in euery tyme, syth we can not now speke with the men.

[Page cclxv] A Fynally good chrysten reders vppon these thynges it foloweth, that we proue well and suffycyently, that there is not an olde chyrche of Cryste and hys apostles, & an other newe chyrche now / but one whole chyrche from that tyme to thys tyme in one trewe fayth contynued. And so is it playnely proued false all the fundacyon of Tindals whole tale.

And as for any thynge that hym selfe proueth / hys wordes that he wold were taken for so playne to shewe vs whyche is the chyrche, leueth vs as I sayed in lyke dowte as we were / sauynge where they shold proue hym & his cō pany the chyrche, they proue nowe clerely wyth thys, that he confesseth Cryste & hys apostles to haue ben the chyrch / and then this that we proue therto by all the holy doctours B bokes of euery age before, that the catholyke chyrche hath now the same fayth styll, and Tyndale and hys felowes ye contrary: Tyndals owne tale I saye wyth these thynges set therto, proue Tyndale and all his felowes heretykes, and the knowen catholyke chyrche to be the very chyrche of Cryste.

And here ye se well good reders, I myghte of hys cha­pyter make an ende. But in good fayth Tyndals wordes well wayed, haue so many mery folyes in them, that I can not yet holde my fyngers from them.

For I requyre you for goddes sake onys agayne con­syder hys wordes well.

Tyndale.

C As they which depart from the fayth of the true chyrch are heretykes / euen so they that departe from the chyrche of heretykes and false fayned fayth of ypochrytes, are the trewe chyrche.

More.

I haue in good fayth good hope, that there shall not lyghtely so meane a wytted man rede his wordes here, but that he shall meruayle myche where Tyndals wytte was when he wrote those wordes. For euery chyld may se perde that these two thynges be not lyke / that is to wytte the go­ynge out of the trewe chyrche of Cryste, and the goyng out of the false chyrche of heretykes. For the trewe chyrche of Cryste is but one. And the false chyrches of heretykes be many. And therfore though euery man that goth from the [Page cclxvi] faith out of that one trew chyrch of Crist, must nedes be an A heretyke, bycause he can not so go out but by heresye / it fo­loweth not that in lyke wyse euery man that goeth oute of the chyrche of heretykes, goeth into the trewe chyrche of Cryste, by the trewe fayth agayne / for as mych as of many chyrches, he maye go out of one into another / and so ye se well they do. And therfore Tyndale speketh false Englysh when he sayth the chyrche of heretykes. For they neyther be any one chyrch, nor haue any one chyrche ouer them all, so specyall that it maye be by a certayne specyall preemy­nens in respecte of the remanaunt called the chyrche.

Now that a man maye go out of a false chyrche of here­tykes and yet not into the trewe chyrche of Cryst / Tyndale maye well perceyue by two samples of two specyall heretykes of two contrary condycyons / that is to wytte one here­tyke B of olde called Berengarius, and an other of new cal­led wyllyam Hychyn. Berengarius fell fyrst into that fals heresye agaynste the blessed sacrament of the aulter, that he affermed and helde that there is not in it the very body of Cryste, nor nothynge but onely very brede, and gathe­red hys chyrche of his heresye togyther. But afterwarde he better remembred hym selfe, and reuoked that heresye, and fell from that heresy into an other / not fully so farre in falshed but yet a false heresye to / that is to wytte that here­sye that Luther holdeth now, that in the sacrament though he confessed to be the very body of Cryste, yet he helde that there remayned and abode styll very brede to therwyth.

And thus in Berengarius may Tyndale well perceyue that a man may go frow a false chyrche of heretykes, and yet not strayt into the trewe chyrche of Cryste.C

Tyndale maye also perceyue thys poynte well by the tother new heretyke wyllyam Huchyn, whych fyrste fell to the secunde heresye that was of the twayne the lesse euyll, that is to wyt the heresye that Luther holdeth, that in the sacrament is bothe the very body of Cryst and very brede. But now eyther bycause he longed euer to falle vnto the wurste, as longe as he myght fynde any wurse then other, or ellys bycause he fauored frete Huskyn, bycause his own name was Huchyn / he fell in that poynt from Luthers he­resye to hys, and affermeth now that there is in the blessed sacrament nothynge ellys but brede / and [...]esteth and scof­feth vpon it, and dysputeth in hys blasphemy that it shold [Page cclxvii] A be but starche.

And thus where the olde heretyke Berengarius began at the worste, and from that fell to lesse euyll: this new he­retyque Huchyn goth contrary way, begynnynge at the lesse euyll and fallynge from that vnto the worse. And therfore is mych the lesse lykely to folow yt tother in one poynt, in whyche I praye god he may. For Berengarius yet after all thys, reuoked his later heresye to, and lyued longe af­ter, and dyed an holy vertuouse man.

But by these ensamples I say Tyndale may well per­ceyue that though he go strayt out of a chirch of heretikes, yet yt shall not folow yt he shall go into ye trew chyrch / syth he maye by the waye steppe into a nother false chyrche, of whyche there be so many besyde.

B For all the heretyques be not gathered into one chyrch / but as the chyrche of Cryste is but one, so be there of those a vengable many / and be not cōprehended vnder any one chyrch, sauyng onely that as the trew chyrch is the chyrch of god, so be all the false called the chyrch of ye deuyll,I [...]. 41. why­che is kynge as the scripture sayth ouer all the chyldren of pryde, whyche pryde is as saynte Austayne sayth the very moder of heretyques.

Now yf yt be trewe that Tyndale here sayeth, that the chyrche whyche we call the very chyrche / that is to say, yf yt be trew that the catholyque knowen chyrche, be as Tyndale here taketh yt the chyrche of heretyques / and ye fayth therof be as he also calleth yt, a false fayned fayth of ypo­crytys / and therfore lyke as thys chyrche bycause yt is as C he sayth comen awaye from the trew chyrche of Cryste and hys apostles, is the chyrche of false heretykes / so they that come awaye fro this chyrch of heretykes, and this false fayned fayth of ypocritys, be the trew chyrch: then must yt nedys folowe, that all the sectys whyche are sprongen in Boheme, and in Sarony, & in some other partes of Almayn, be the very trew chyrche, and the trew faythfull byleuers.

Now syth Tyndale hath brought yt vnto this, I wold fayn know one thyng of hym / syth it is so that all those sec­tys be the trew chyrch and very faythfull folke: how hap­peth yt that eche of theym calleth other false shrewes, and sayth trew in that poynt and in allmoste nothynge ellys?

And syth he hath brought yt vnto this / how can his fy­nall wordes also stande wyth this cōclusyon, wyth whych [Page cclxviii] A wordes he wolde [...]eme to proue his conclusyon trew. For thus he endeth this chapyter.

Tyndale.

Whiche thou shalte alwaye knowe by theyr fayth examyned by the scrypture, and by theyr professyon and consent to lyue accordynge vnto the law­es [...]f god.

More.

Nowe consyder good reder whether these tokens do make vs know, that all the sectes that are departed fro the catholyke chyrche, be the trew chyrche.

How can theyr fayth examyned by the scripture, or how can theyr professyon to lyue accordyng to the lawis of gos, make vs perceyue that all they be the trew chyrch, bycause they come from the fayth of oures whych Tyndale calleth false and fayned / where as they beyng departed from ow­res,B do amonge them selfe neyther in fayth nor in professy­on of lyuynge any wyse consent or agree?

For fyrste in Boheme, what a sorte of dyuerse false faythys be there, and what dyuersyte and contraryete in the professyon of theyr lyuynge.

Then in Saxony and in some partes of Almayn, what a nother sorte is there of sundry maner sectis, as well in artycles of the fayth and bylyefe, as iu the vnmanerly ma­ners and lawles lawes of lyuynge, wherof ye may percey­ue a great many by the boke of M. wyllyam Barloo, that longe was cōuersaunt in the countrey / whych detestynge thabomynacyon that he founde amonge theym, hath of a ryght godly zele geuen vs knowlege of theym.

And now by Tyndales tale they be the trew chyrch eue­ry C chone, and the lawe of god shall allowe all theyr lyuyn­ges as bestely as they be, and the scrypture of god shall vpholde and maynteyn all theyr belyefes as dyssonaunt and as repugnaūt as they be eche to other, and as malycyousely false as all the whole sorte be both one and other.

For all this lo yet shall we by the law of god and by the scrypture of god compared with all theyr bestely lyuynges and all theyr false repugnaunt faythes, well and clerely know sayth Tyndale, that all they be the very trew chyrch of Cryste, bycause they can be none other, for as myche as they be come away from the fayned fayth of ours.

And so ye may se that Tyndale affyrmeth now not one­ly those abhomynable heresyes that he taught before, but [Page cclxix] A all those also the Anabaptistes haue added vnto them synnys. And so now be the trewe chyrche wyth hym and agree wyth scrypture and wyth the lawe of god, all those that say the baptysynge of chyldren is voyde, and they that say that there ought to be no rulers at all in crystendome, ney­ther spyrytuall nor temporall / and that no man shold haue any thynge proper of his owne, but that all landes and all goodes ought by goddes lawe to be all mennys in comen, and that all women ought to be comen to all men, as well the nexte of kynne as the farthest straunger, & euery man husbande to euery woman, and euery woman wyfe vnto euery man / and then fynally that our blessed sauyour Crist was but onely man and not god at all.

And in good fayth I neuer thought other yet from sone B after the begynnynge, but that when these folke fell onys to these horryble heresyes whyche Tyndale in his bokes hath taught vs, they shulde not fayle to fall sone after vn­to these other to / of whych the very worste is not worse yet then dyuerse of those that Tyndale taught vs byfore / nor lyghtly can there none be worse, excepte onely one, that were to say there is no god at all. And as helpe me god I veryly fere they shall fall vnto that at laste. And then reke­nynge neyther vppon god nor deuyll nor immortalyte of theyr owne soules, but iestynge and scoffynge that god is a good felow, & as good a soule hath an oule as a cukkoo, and whē thou seest my soule hange on the hedge then hurle stonys at yt hardly and spare not / and as Tyndale sayth when thou spekest with saint Peter, then pray hym to pray C for the: thus rekenynge vpon nothynge but onely vppon this world, & therfore rekkyng for nothyng but onely for y body, they shall at the laste fall in a new rage, & gather thē selfe to gyther, and shall but yf theyr malyce be the better repressed, to make other maner maystryes then euer they made ye [...] / wherof the myschiefe shall fall in theyr own nekkes. But yet yf they may be suffred onys to ryse [...] all the myschyefe wyll not fall in theyr owne nekkes alone, but mych harme shall happe vppon many good mennys heddes ere these rebellyous wreches be well repressyd agayne.

Besyde all this, consyder well good reder, that yf yt be trew that Tyndale here teacheth vs for the fynall conclu­syon of all this chapyter / that is to wit yf it be trew that all they that go oute of the catholyke chyrche, be the the trewe [Page cclxx] chyrche / then syth the sectes that are departed oute of thys A catholyque chyrche, be companyes knowen well ynough, ye se nowe very well that here hath Tyndale sodenly des­troyed and pulled downeth chyrche that all thys whyle he went about to byeld vppe / whyche was as fro the begyn­nynge ye haue herde, a chyrche of vnknowen electys. For he hath as ye now perceyue, brought al to a knowē chyrch, or rather to twenty knowen chyrches / of whych euery one is by all the remenaunt knowleged to be knowen for false / and then bothe in abomynable false bylyefe and brutyshe bestely lyuynge all the whole rable suche, that obstynately lyue therin, and deuelyshly also dye therin, that euery man may well perceyue they can not all be goddes electys.

And thus hath he sodaynly pulled here downe to groūd, the chyrche vnknowen of his onely electys, that he hathe B good crysten reder all this whyle so bysely gone aboute to sette vppe.

Now yf Tyndale when he shall perceyue howe blyndely the deuyll hath led hym here aboute, and made hym to fall in the dyche with his docer, & breke all his eggys, & quayle thus all his conclusyon, wolde for shame seke any farther shyfte, & say that I mysse take hys wordes, & that hym self ment in them some other maner thynge: I dowte not but euery wyse reder wyll cōsyder well what he wyll saye, and not be so far ouer sene as to byleue hym at his onely word. One thynge I am very sure, that I haue in this chapyter lefte neuer a word of his vnwrytē to hyde his entent, or depraue his purpose wyth all / but haue truely and playnely rehersed them euery one. By all whyche yt appereth playnly, that he both sayth and meaneth as I haue shewed you / C and therupon that these folyes of his that I haue declared you, are playnely deduced vppon his own wordes whyche I haue rehersed you.

Howe be yt yf he wyll for auoydyng of the shame, sur­myse yt he ment some other thyng: I can not well ymagyn what yt myght be that he myght dyuyse to say that he mēt. For yf he wold say that he ment not, that all the sectys that go oute of the catholyque chyrche whych he calleth the he­retykes be the trew chyrche / but some one of them, whyche one we sholde perceyue well from the remenaunt by theyre fayth examyned by scrypture, & by the professyon of theyr lyuynge after the law of god: this can he not saye that he [Page cclxxi] A ment / for he nameth no one secte of them all, but sayth ge­nerally that they whyche departe out of the chyrche of heretykes whyche he calleth the comen knowen catholyke chyrche, be the trew chyrche. And therfore he can not escape so.

He wold also yf he had so ment, haue specyally cōmaūded some one. And also there is not one of thē all whose fayth eyther agreeth wyth the scrypture, or the professyō of theyr liuyng with the law of god / but yf Tyndale call as in dede he doth, a godly professyon for freres & nonnes to fall from the chastyte of theyr professyon / and lyke as they professed before to serue god in chastyte, so to professe them self from hense forth to serue the deuyll in sacrylege, and make hym a dayly sacryfyce of theyr owne bestely bodyes wyth ince­stuous lecherye.

B Fynally yf he be so shamelesse as to say that he ment none of them all, but some suche vnknowen as hym selfe woteth not whom, that is gone out of our chyrch, that is to wytte the knowen catholyke chyrche / & byleueth not as we do by cause we byleue nought / nor lyueth not as we do bycause we lyue nought / nor goth not into any of those other chyr­ches & sectes neyther, bycause they byleue nought and lyue nought also as wel as we, but frame them selfe some fayth after the scrypture, & some kynde of lyuyng after the lawe of god by them selfe / & that these be the very chyrche & the very electes, & all vnknowen both who they be and where they be sauing onely that alway som such there be, & knowē onely to god that hath elected them, & euery of them to hym selfe by hys felyng fayth, which yet he many tymes feleth C nothynge of, as Tyndale hym selfe hath before cōfessed in the chapyter of the order of theyr eleccyō, & yet for all that alway feleth styll, yt thorow the felyng fayth which he ones felt, he is one of goddes good chyldern, euyn whyle he ly­eth with his lēman or whyle he kylleth a good man, & that in all that whyle yt he doth such deuelysshe dedes, he doeth yet no dedely synne: yf he can for shame fynde in hys harte to say thus, this wylbe the most folysh thynge of all.

For fyrst the generall maner yt he vseth where he sayth They that go fro the chyrche of heretykes (whyche he calleth vs of the catholyke chyrch) be the very chyrche, This generall maner of speche I say that excludeth none, restrayneth it not vnto a fewe folke onely vncertayne & vnknowē, but extendeth it vnto all folke that euer go forth frō vs. And therfore he cā not excuse his foly with sayeng that he ment it so.

[Page cclxxii]Moreouer yf he so had ment in dede / that had bene yet A the moste foly of all. For what cōgregacyon were that whiche neuer were gathered togyder, nor neuer one parte wyt­tyngly speke wyth other / of whych yf they mette to gyther, neuer one knoweth other. For though they knowe to gy­ther, as folke of acquayntaunce or kyn [...]ed, or neyghbours peraduenture all of one towne or strete, ye or of one house eyther: yet can they not one knowe an other as for a mem­ber of hys owne vnknowen chyrch, that is to wytte for one of the trewe fayth and ryght lyuynge, & for a penytent syn­ner, and fynally for a fynall electe. And all these condyciōs ye wote well muste those persons haue that Tyndale ta­keth for the very chyrche.

yes sayth Tyndale Thou shalte alwaye knowe them by theyr fayth examyned by the scrypture, and by theyr professyo [...] and consent to lyue accor­dynge B vnto the lawes of god.

How is it possyble to know by these menes whyther he be a fynall electe or not? whyle he may both lye & chaunge, and say he byleueth otherwyse than he doth, or byleue here after otherwyse than he doth now.

But yet consyder well here good reder, that when ye se Tyndale here go about to teche how they may be knowē / he declareth hym selfe that of reason the chyrche muste be a chyrche knowen / and that it were a thynge farre out of rea­son to haue the very chyrch vnknowen. And in thys he cle­rely declareth the madnesse as well of hym selfe as of Lu­ther & Bar [...]s and them all, that wold haue the chyrch a cō ­gregacyō vnknowen / and yet labour to deuyse vs markes by all the menes they maye, wherby theyr chyrch vnknow­en myghte seme to be perceyued and knowen.C

Now when he sayth, Thou shalt allway knowe them by theyr fayth examyned by the scrypture, and by theyr professyon and consent to lyue after the lawe of god: I wolde [...]ayne wytte whych thou he meaneth.

Thou lerned or thou vnlerned. wel [...] ye wote that amōg the lerned, the very sense is in questyon / and vpon the de­batynge therof, aryseth all the varyaūce. whych thou mea­neth he than? Thou that art vnlerned: Thou that cannest scantely rede it, or thou that cannyst not rede it at all? whē they that are lerned can not perceyue it, then thou perde y arte vnlerned shal [...] perceyue it a non, & examyne and iudge by the scrypture whyche of them saye beste for theyr fayth of whom thou vnderstādest neyther nother / but the lenger that thou hereste them dyspute vppon the scrypture but yf [Page cclxxiii] A thou brynge the trew fayth thyther wyth the, the lesse shalt thou there perceyue. And in mych more dowt departe shalt thou thense, then thou were in whan thou camest thyther. [...] For as the prophete sayth, but yf ye beleue ye shall not vn­derstond. And therfore for euery man lerned & vnlerned for so farre as toucheth the necessary doctryne of trewe fayth & lyuyng, & exposycyō of scrypture that apperteyneth therto, the very fastenesse & surtye is, to reste vnto the chyrch / whyche is as saynt Poule sayth, ye pyler & sure groūd of trouth.1. [...] And that can be no [...]e vnknowē chyrch, whych can neyther lerne nor teche, as they that neyther can haue precher no [...] herers / as well for that one of them can not know an other to assemble aboute eleccyon & choyce, nor can haue any by successyō, syth there can be no successyon perceyued among B any such of whych no parte knoweth other / & also for that yf they neyther be of ye catholyke chyrch nor of any knowē sect, they can not be suff [...]red to prech or lyue eyther among vs or them. And yf they be of eyther vs or them / thenne are they of some knowen chyrch. And yf they be scatered amōg the chyrch & the dyuers s [...]ctes, & neyther lyue nor byleue after the doctryne of none of them all / so longe as they so do none of them knowyng other, so longe be they a secrete vnknowen secte / but they neyther be chyrch nor haue chyrch, nor preste nor precher amonge them.

And yf they fall after in aquayntaūce togyther & flocke to gyther, and eche knowe of others bylyefe and lyuynge / then begynne they to be a knowen secte and a false knowen chyrche of heretykes, bycause they be gone out of the catholyke, C some unmedyately and parte by a mean [...], as those that come togyther departyng out of the dyuers, all whych before departed out of our one. In whyche one of ours, y is to wyt in the knowen catholyke chyrch, the trewth doth onely reste, syth it well appereth as I haue before playnely proued, that the fayth whyche was with Cryste & hys apo­stles, hath euer styll contynued with vs / which is and euer hath bene one chyrch styll contynued from the begynnyng. And therfore euer frome the begynnynge, those that haue by professyon departed out of thys chyrche, haue euer bene knowen, yf from the socyete therof for scismatikes, yf from the fayth therof, for heretykes. For as that gloryous mar­tyr holy saynt Cypryane sayth: Out of vs be they all gone and not we out of them / but euer from the begynnynge as [Page cclxxiiii] heretykes or scismatykes haue rysen, eyther haue they by A professyon departed out, or the chyrch hath caste them out / and the chyrche euer more hath as the very stocke conty­nued styll and remayned / & the braunches so cutte of, haue fyrst or last wythered away. And so shal all these at length, when the catholyke chyrch shall abyde & remayne & stande faste with god and god fas [...]e wyth it, accordyng to goddes promyse, tyll the worlde take an ende / and euer myracles in it and in onely it, to declare and make open that the very fayth, the very hope, and the very cheryte styll conty­nueth therin / and that how syke so euer it be, & how myche dede flesshe so euer be founden in the syke and sore partes of the same, yet alyue is euer the body of thys chyrche, for in it is the soule and the spyrite / and out of the body of this knowen contynued catholyke chyrche, there is in the body B of any other chyrche gone out or caste out of thys for theyr contrary bylyefe and fayth, or for theyr rebellyous byha­uour, there neyther is I saye nor can be amonge them all, as all the olde holy doctours and sayntes fully recorde & testyfye, neyther helth, lyfe, hed, nor spyryte.

And therfore to fynysshe at laste thys longe chapyter of hys solucyon / it is impossyble for Tyndale or all the world besyde, to soyle that one argument, by whych the knowen catholyke chyrch is proued to be the very chyrch of Cryst / in that that from the begynnynge it hath euer styll be [...]e by ordynary course of successyon kepte and contynued one / and the olde fayth from the begynnynge (as by the b [...]kes of holy sayntes of euery age well appereth) all waye c [...]ntynued therin / and the olde ryghte maner of interpretacyon C of the scrypture, concernynge the fayth (as by the same sayntes holy bokes appereth) all waye contynued ther­in / and euer more gloryouse myracles from the begynnyng incessauntely perseueryng therin / and that it was promy­ [...]ed that it sholde euer contynue tyll the worldes ende, an [...] god therin wythout any other newe chyrche of god to suc­cede the chyrche of Cryste in thys worlde,Matth. 28. as it was promymysed and prophecyed that the chyrch of Cryste sholde succede & put away the synagoge of Moyses / & that all other chyrches and sectes of whyche euery one calleth it selfe the ryght chyrch, be some at one tyme some at an other arysen & rered them self agaynst this chyrch, & therfore bothe gone out & caste out of thys chyrche, & there so many dyuers faythes [Page cclxxv] A to the old cōtynued fayth euery one dyuersly cōtrary, and all theyr interpretacyons of holy scrypture cōcernyng fayth and good lyuyng dyuersly, contrary to the doctryne and exposycyōs of all the olde holy doctours and sayntes, as I haue often declared you / or ellys let Tyndale as I haue desyred hym onys or twyse I trowe all redy, tell vs some one of all them that teacheth vs the scripture or wyth out scrypture eyther, that freres may wedde nunnys.

These thynges I saye beyng thus, that the very chirch can be but one, and muste endure as longe as the worlde lasteth, and can in this worlde haue no new chyrche to succede yt as the synagoge hadde / and then that all these chyrches of these sectis be rysen and gone oute of the catholyke chyrch, and yt cōtynueth styll: yt is impossyble I saye for B Tyndale or all the worlde besyde, to soyle the reason and auoyde yt, but that onely this catholyque chyrche is the very trew chyrche of Cryste / and all the chyrches of sectys at sundry tymes gone out therof, be chyrches of heretyques and scysmatykes and very chyrches of the deuyll.

And thus good crysten reders haue I playnely proued you, that Tyndale and his felowes and all these sundrye sectys, nor yet any one of theym all, be not as he blasphe­meth and scoffeth to be resembled vnto Cryste & his apost­les / as gone out of the catholyque chyrche, in lyke maner as they went out of the synagoge that then shulde haue an ende, to begynne a new that whyle the worlde lasted shold neuer haue ende, nor any chyrch be trew saue yt self. But y Tyndale and all his felowes & all theyr sectys, be so gone C oute and put out of this catholyke chyrch of Cryste [...] as Lucyfer and his felowes by pryde fyrste departed out and by power was after put oute of the chyrche of god in heuen.

And lyke wyse also as Cain was by god put oute of the chyrche of good folke, for his obstynate malyce in erth.

And lyke wyse as Chore, Dathan, and Abyron wyth theyr felows, [...] made a secte of scysmatyques and bent away fro the chyrche of Moyses and Aaron in deserte / for why­che they went quykke vnder erth, & as yt semeth hell swa­loweth them vppe.Num. 1 [...].

And lyke wyse also as the ten trybys of Israell depar­ted wyth Hieroboam from theyr very kynge Roboam the sonne of Salomon / wyth whyche rebellyous depar­tynge from theyr kynge, all be it they were not well handeled [Page cclxxvi] wyth hym, but were thretened and put in fere of oppressyon,A yet was god as saint Cypriayn by scrypture proueth greatly dyspleased wyth them / and his very chyrche moste specyally then remayned in the smaller companye the two trybys onely, from whyche the .x. were gone. And these heretykes be gone out of the catholyke chyrche in lyke ma­ner, [...] as the great company of Crystes dyscyples went from hym when he was aboute to teache hym the fayth of hys very bodye and blood in the sacrament of the aulter / for whyche and from whyche Huchyn, Huyskyn, and Swyn­glius, be now gone awaye to. And yet as the very chyrche remayned in these few that abode and contynued / so shall the very chyrche euer abyde and contynue in these few that perseuer in the stokke, be yt mynished and mynced neuer so smale / and alway those that go therfro, shalbe but wythe­red B braūches and chyrches of heretykes and scysmatykes, be they neuer so great nor so many.

These heretykes departe also from the catholyke chirch in suche wyse as Iudas departed fro y chyrch of Criste at the maūday souper,M [...]r [...]i. 14. whē he went to betray the hed of tha [...] chyrche, and vterly to dyssolue the body. And lyke wyse do all these sectes of heretykes, which in y poynt do more then veryly represent the scrybes and pharysyes, whom saynte Iohn̄ called the generacyon of vypars. For as the yonge vyper serpētes gnaw out theyr mothers bely,Matt [...]. [...]. and those scribes and pharysyes dyd by theyr false doctryne laboure to destroye the very trew doctryne of the synagoge, whereof they were engendred: so do all these cursed serpentyne sec­tys of heretykes, both wyth theyr false errours and heresy­es,C labour to destroy the trew doctryne / and also wyth sowynge of dyssencyon and sedycyouse scysmes, go aboute to gnaw out the very bely of theyr moder the holy cath [...]lyke chyrche. And therfore wyll they, but yf they do (as I pray god geue them grace to do) repent theyr malyce and amēd, ellys vndowtely haue theyr parte wyth Iudas, and wyth suche other as I haue shewed you that departed from the trew chyrche byfore, and wyth suche other heretykes as departed also from the chyrch in the tyme of the blessed apostles after / as were the Ebionytes that sayed Chryste was but onely man and not god, agaynste whome saynt Iohn̄ the Euangelyst wrote his holy gospell / and the Nycolai­tes whych wold haue all women in comen, agaynst whom [Page cclxxviii] A god speketh hym selfe in thapocalyps,A [...]. 2. whyche both here­syes be now begonne to be brought vppe agayne amonge the sectys of these new heretyques in Almayne / whyche se­ctes Tyndale calleth the very trewe chyrche of Cryste [...] by­cause they departe onely and go from ours / where he seeth well by the olde bokes, that we haue the same fayth that thapostles had / and hereth wyth his owne eares that they haue the same heresyes whyche thapostles dampned.

So se you good readers, that the many sectes are come uote of the one chyrche / the noughty out of the good, the false oute of the trew. And Tyndale argueth the contrary way / and therby wolde make vs wene that the good co­meth euer out of the bad, and leueth the noughty behynde. And by that way shall not onely Luthers lecherous ch [...]rch B be better then the catholyke chyrche of Chryst / but also Lucyfer his chyrche of deuyls in hell, be better then the chyrch of god and hys good angelys, that Lucyfer when he fell from thense lefte styll wyth god behynde hym in the glory­ouse blysse of heuyn.

And thus ende I good crysten reder this boke [...] in why­che euery chylde almoste that aduysedely redeth yt, maye well and clerely perceyue that Tyndales solucyon is not worth one ryshe / but the reason that he wolde haue soy­led, is and abydeth styll so myghtye stronge and inuyn­cyble, as a reason byfore me made by the stronge and my­ghty champyon the inuyncyble martyr saynte Cypryan [...] / that by that one reason alone yt ys I dare boldelye saye, well and playnely proued that this knowen catholyque C chyrche whyche Tyndale wolde impugne, dysp [...]oue, and destroye, is alone the very trewe chy [...]che of Chryste, whyche all the deuyls in hell shall neuer be able to pull downe / and that these hundred sundry sectys whych Tyndale wolde haue taken for the very chyrche of Cryste, be very false heretyques all the whole rable, and synagoges of Sathan, and very chyrches of the deuyll all redy dede and vtterly destroyed in spyryte / and but yf they retur [...]e to the catholyque chyrche agayne, wyll ellys wyth Iudas be [...]e­ryed and burne in hell.

¶Thus endeth the .vi. boke.

¶The .vii. boke.A Here begynneth the .vii. boke in defence of the seconde reason, prouynge the knowen catholyke chyrche to be the very chyrche of Cryste. whyche seconde reason is, that we knowe not whyche is the scrypture, but by the knowen catholyke chyrche.

The defence of the seconde reason.

Tyndale.

AN other lyke blynde reason they haue, wherin is all theyr truste. As we come out of them and they not out B of vs / so we receyue the scrypture of them and they not of vs. How knowe we that it is the scrypture of god and trewe, but bycause they teache vs so. How can we that byleue, excepte we fyrst byleue that they be the chyrche, and can not err [...] in any thynge that partey­neth vnto our soules helth. [...]or yf a man tell me of a meruelouse thinge, wherof I can haue no nother knowlege then by hys mouth onely / how sholde I gyue credence, excepte I byleued that the man were so honest that he coulde not lye or w [...]lde not lye. Wherfore we must byleue that they be the ryght chyr­che that can not erre, or ellys we can byleue nought at all. Thys wyse reason is theyr shoteanker, and all theyr h [...]lde, theyr refuge to flyght, & chefe stone in theyr fundacyon, wheron they haue bylt all theyr lyes and all theyr myschefe that they haue wrought this .viij. hundred yeres.

More.C

THys reason good reader which Tindale wolde here so fayne answere and soyle, is the thynge wherwyth the kynge our souerayne lord as a most erudyte prince in hys moste famous boke of the asser­cyon of the sacramentes, strayned Lu­ther so sore, that hytherto neyther hym selfe nor any companyō of hys, durste euer onys attempte any answere therunto / tyll Tyndale now perceyuynge the kynges argument in that poynte, so stronge that euery man mych alloweth it and feleth it for inuincible, wareth for angre so starke madde at last / that he maketh his assayes and assautēs here therat / and leseth not [Page cclxxix] A onely hys labour in the ende, but also by some of hys own argumentes, wherwyth he wolde impugne it, maketh it rather more stronge, and proueth it playne inexpugnable.

But Tyndale all be it that he reherse the reason [...]n such wyse hym selfe, that he soyleth it not afterwarde so surely as he reherseth it / nor neuer were lyke why [...]e he lyueth, all though the reason had no more then he reherseth: yet doth the kynges grace agaynste Luther besydes all thys that Tyndale reherseth, put an other pyece or twayne of pytthe and strength therin.

For where as in the tyme of holy saynt Austayne, suche heretykes as then were, played as these do now, denyenge the comon knowen catholyke chyrche to be the very chyr­che of god, and the doctryne therof to be trewe: that bles­sed B doctour amonge many other thynges wyth whyche he playnely confuted that folysshe heresye [...] sayed and affermed playnely that hym self sholde not haue byleued the gospell, but yf the authoryte of the catholyke chyrche compelled hym therunto.

Thys sayenge of saynt Austayne Luther hym selfe al­loweth. For though he wyll in no wyse agree, that the hole catholyke chyrch gathered to gyther in a generall coūsayl, hath any authoryte or powre to make any lawes at all: yet he graunteth that the certaynty by which we knowe and be put in suretye, whyche is the very scrypture of god, and whyche not, a man hath hys lernyng and teachyng of that poynte by the chyrche of god, for the chyrche hath sayth Luther accordynge to the sayenge of Austayne, thys thynge C geuen it of god, that it can iudge and dyscerne the wordes of god from the wordes of men.

Then layed oure sayde souerayne lorde Luthers owne wordes agaynste Luthers owne heresyes, for the faythe of the catholyke chyrche, in dyuers places dyuers wayes. For syth Luther confessed that the chyrche hath that gyfte of god, that it can dyscerne the word of god from the word of man: it foloweth sayeth hys grace that those thynges whyche the chyrche sayeth, is the worde of god vnwryten and tradycyons of the apostles, (of whyche Luther wolde none byleue, bycause they were not wryten) be the very worde of god as well as those that be wryten.

And in that reason hys grace gaue Luther & Tyndale [Page cclxxx] and all theyr whole secte such a sure fall, that they shall ne­uer A well aryse and walke vp ryght whyle they lyue agayn. For as hys hyghnes layed vnto hym, syth Luther can not saye nay but that he must byleue the chyrch when it telleth hym that these thynges god caused hys apostles to wryte / wherfore must he not as mych byleue it, whē it telleth hym These thynges god caused hys apostles to tell and teche by mouth? Then layed his hyghnes vnto Luther ferther, his owne wordes agaynst hym selfe this wyse.

Luther hym selfe confesseth yt god hath gyuen the chyr­che that gyfte, that it can dyscerne the wordes of god from the wordes of men. And wherfore hath he giuen the chyrch that gyfte, but bycause he wyll not suffre hys chyrch to fall into such a perylous errour, as to take the wordes of men for ye wordes of god / wherby men myght fall to some euyll B opynyons as well in fayth as other vertuys. But so is it that by the errour of wronge takynge the sense of goddes wordes, men may fall into the lyke perell, & also to a great deale greater. For the wrytynge of man taken for the scrypture of god, myghte eyther by some conuenyent coment deuysed vpon the trewth wryten in mennes hartes, or by the playne persuasyon & cōfessyon of our own ignoraūce, that the sentēce were not suffyciently perceyued & vnderstandē, myght I say be conteyned & kepte from doynge any great harme. But the scrypture of god taken as it is for hys own wordes, & then vnderstonden falsely / muste nedys caste the people into a very fals errour in stede of very trewe fayth.

Now theruppon it very well foloweth, that god neuer wyll permyt & suffre hys chyrche to fall in any dampnable C errour thorow mysse vnderstādyng & wrong declaracyō of ye scripture / for as mych as by the takyng in necessary poyntes of fayth or vertue the false sentence for the trewe, must nedes growe mych more perell and harme, then by the ta­kyng of mānys false wrytynge for y trew scripture of god.

By thys argument lo the kynges hyghnes vtterly con­futed Luther vpon Luthers owne wordes / & proued hym that he may neuer say nay for shame, but that in all necessary poyntes the very trew sense and e [...]posycyon of the scrypture, is in the chyrche & the holy doctours therof. whose ex­posycyōs as by theyr bokes appereth, openly reproue such exposycyons therof, as all these heretykes haue deuysed for the mayntenaunce of theyr heresyes.

[Page cclxxxi] A Then layed hys hyghnesse vnto Luther hys owne wor­des afore sayd yet agayn in thys wyse.

Syth god hath as Luther confesseth gyuen the chyrch that gyfte, that it dyscerneth the wordes of god frome the wordes of man / Luther well sheweth hym selfe such as he is, whyle he calleth the pystle of saynt Iamys the worde of man, whyche the chyrch hath so longe dyscerned and iud­ged for the worde of god.

Fynally the selfe same wordes of Luther as the kynges hyghnes handeleth them, fully do conclude Luther & Tyndale both, in prouyng the knowen catholyke chyrche to be the very chyrche / whyche is now as ye knowe well, all our whole mater.

B For syth saynt Austayne sayth and Luther also confes­seth, that the chyrch hath thys gyfte of god, that it dyscer­neth the very scrypture of god from the wrytynge of man / and in those wordes, both saynt Austayn and Luther both spake of the knowen catholyke chyrche, and not of an vn­knowen chyrch: yt appereth playne that both saynt Au­stayne and Luther afferme, confesse, & agre, that the knowē catholyke chyrch is the very chyrch / and not that any chyr­che of heretykes is the chyrche / for to none of them god ne­uer gaue that gyfte of dyscresyon. For no man euer toke the scrypture bycause any of them sayd so / but all they as they haue comen out of the catholyke chyrch, so haue of the catholyke chyrche receyued the scrypture / and vppon the credence of that chyrche, haue they all byleued it / as Tyn­dale C can not denye, though these newe heretykes be nowe for defence of theyr heresyes, fayne to forsake some part of the scrypture to.

Now good chrysten readers, consyder well I requyre you these effectuall poyntes, whych our souerayn lorde so substancyally layed vnto Luther vpon hys owne wordes / and I dowte not but your selfe shall easyly perceyue & se, that the same thynges shall stande stronge and sure / & ouer that answere and ouerthrowe all the substaunce of Tyn­dals solucyon here. whose wordes lette vs now loke on a­gayne and examyne.

Tyndale.

Thys wyse reason is theyr shote ancre and all theyr whole refuge, and chyefe stone in theyr fundacyon / wheruppon they haue bylte all theyr lyes, and all theyr myschyefe that they haue wrought these .viij. hundred yeres.

[Page] [...][Page] [...]
More.A
[Page cclxxxii]

Thys reason Tyndale here maketh very lyght, & sayth that these .viii. hadred yere the catholyke chyrche hath byelded so many lyes and so myche myschyefe thereon / by all whych tyme of viii. hundred yeres, yf the whole catholyke chyrch haue ben in errours and heresyes as Tyndale here sayth and his mayster Martyne Luther byfore hym, then hath Chryste broken all hys promyses, by whyche he pro­mysed to be wyth his chyrche all days to the worldes ende.

For by all this .viii. hundred yeres hath Cryste hadde none other chyrche contynuynge that any man can tell of / but yf Tyndale wyll saye yes / and when he can neither tell whyche nor where, wyll yet say styll yes, and nothyng but yes, and loke that we sholde agaynst our owne experyence vppon his bare worde byleue hym, bycause he sayth styll B yes / wyth as myche profe in his yes, as a gose hath in her hysse.

Tyndale seeth well also, as ye shal after perceyue though he dyssymyle yt now / that when he sayth this wyse reason is theyr shote ancre, this reason yt he mokketh is not onely theyres whome he wolde seme to mokke, that is to wyt the catholyque chyrch of this, viii. yeres / in whych tyme haue ben men of suche holynes and vertue and now holy saynts in heuen, whose faythfull holy wrytynges condempne his faythlesse heresyes, that euery good man I dare saye wyll thynke them full vnmetely to be mokked and iested vppon by suche a folyshe felowe as this is / whyche whyle he set­te [...]h so lytle by saynt Thomas, saynt Bonauenture, saynt Bernarde, saynte Anselme, and all such other men as haue C wryten in the chyrche this .viii. hundred yere: he seeth yet well inough that the reason which he mokketh, was made by the holy doctour saynt Austayne foure or fyue hundred yere byfore that / and that the same holy man byelded ther­uppon the selfe same byeldynge, that the catholyke chyrch repayreth and kepeth vppe nowe / and whyche byeldynge these heretykes wolde now pull downe / that is to say that god teacheth his chyrche the trouth,Iohan. 16 and ledeth yt into all trouth as he promysed, and wyll not suffre yt damnably to erre, and for that cause wyll not suffre yt to be dysceyued in mysse takynge of the very scrypture, nor consequently for the same cause for such myssetakyng of the ryght sense and vnderstand therof, wherby they sholde fall in any damnable [Page cclxxxiii] A errour thorow the false bylyef, in any maner poynte whereof god wolde haue theym to knowe and byleue the trouthe.

These are the thynges that holy saynte Austayne made that reason for, agaynste suche heretykes as Luther and Tyndale be now. whych other dyd then as these do now, labour to make folke byleue that theyr chyrch of heretyques were the very chyrche, and the catholyque chyrche were a chyrche of heretykes. Agaynst those heretykes say I, and wyth them agaynste these heretyques to, dyd that holy doctour saynte Austayn, not onely eyght hundred yere agoo, whyche were yet a lenger tyme by almoste halfe then euer hadde any secte of heretyques any contynuaunce yet / but B lenger byfore eyght hundred yere then almost half .viii. C. agayne, make this inuyncyble reason whyche nowe thys worshyppefull wyld gose so comely scoffeth and scorneth / by whyche for all his goodly scoffynge at saynt Austaynes reason, he shall neuer whyle he lyueth auoydeyt, but that saynt Austayn hath by that reason alone, all though he neuer had made mo / where as Tindale wel knoweth though he wolde haue yt seme nay, that saynt Austayne made for that purpose many mo / but though he neuer hadde I saye made mo for that purpose then that one: yet had yt one a­gaynst Martyne Luther and wyllyam Tyndale to, and a­gaynste all the heretykes that euer haue ben, are nowe, or euer shall be herafter, well and clerely proued that theyr chyrche be all the many false, and onely the knowen catho­lyque chyrche the very trew chyrche of Cryste.

C And now syth this reason that Tyndale here setteth so lyght, was as hym selfe after cōfesseth, made by saynt Au­stayne hym selfe so mayny hundred yere ago, and hath be [...] well lyked and alowed of euery good wyse man synnes: let vs nowe se wyth what substancyall answere Tyndale can scoffe yt oute.

Tyndale.

And this reason do the Iewes say vnto our charge this day. And thys reason doth chyefely blynde them, and holde them styll in obs [...]ynacy.

More.

O good lorde, what great pytye yt was that saynte Austayne hadde not had as myche wyt as wyllyam Tyn­dale that he myghte haue seen that his argument wolde so sone be soyled / and that yt was no better for the chyrche a­gaynste [Page cclxxiiii] heretyques, then for the Iewes agaynste crysten­dome A / but euen the selfe same reason that maynteyneth, them in theyr obstynacy & kepeth them from crystendome.

But surely saynte Austayn good man saw not so farre. For syth her neuer founde in all his days, neyther Iew nor heretyque so madde to make hym that answere whyche myght so, sone be voyded / he trusted well good man that there wolde neuer none be so folyshe in suche wyse to soyle yt after.

How be yt yf saynt Austayne hadde had no more to say to the Iewes for the defence of his reason, then the heretykes hadde to saye to hym in the soylynge of his reason: then myght the heretyques well haue mokked saynt Austayne, as Tyndale doth nowe, and soyled hys reason in the selfe same fashyon / and so wolde they sone haue done ye may be B sure, had they not seen full well that they sholde haue won them selfe nothynge but shame therby. For yf any he retyke wold so haue sayd vnto saynt Austayn, y the Iewes myght saye the same to the crysten people, you knowe not the scryptures of god but by vs bycause we tell you so, er­go we be the very chyrche of god / and vs ye muste byleue as well in the vnderstandynge of the scrypture, as ye by­leue vs in the knowynge whyche is the scrypture: saynte Austayne wolde sone haue sayde agayne, that crysten people myght answere the Iewe and say, we neyther receyue the scrypture of you nor know the scrypture by you, nor yet byleue you neyther in the declaracyon therof. For yf we dyd / then muste we graunt the gospell were no scrypture, nor nothynge that any of Crystes apostles wrote, nor some C bokes neyther whyche were taken oute of your owne he­brew tonge. And therfore we knowe neuer a boke of scrypture by your teachynge, but mysse truste rather euery boke of scrypture that commeth out of your handes. For the sy­nagoge of Moyses whyche was whyle yt lasted the chyrch of god, is now ended and is his chyrch no lenger. B [...]t our sauyour Cryste hath begonne and contynued his chyrche, this knowen catholyque chyrche gathered of Iewes & gentyles both to gyther. And he toke not the olde scryptures of you, nor of you neyther lerned to know them, nor of you to vnderstande theym / but he made theym all, and by the writers therof hym self endyghted them. And he delyuered vnto vs that chyrche, both those olde and also some other [Page cclxxxv] A newe, and yet dyuerse other instruccyōs of his pleasure in thynges that he wolde haue byleue and done, whereof he caused no parte to be wryten. And then he taught and euer teacheth and euer shall teache, hys catholyque chyrche to knowe as well those holye wrytynges as those other holy thynges vnwryten, wyth all necessary vnderstandynge of those holy wrytynges to. And all this he techeth his ch [...]rch by hym selfe and his owne spyryte, accordynge to his own promyse euermore abydynge therin, [...] to lede yt in to all ne­cessary trouth, [...] to thentent that his catholique chyrch may be to euery man that wyll lerne therof and geue credence thereunto as hym selfe commaundeth euery man to do [...] a very sure stablyshement and a stronge pyller of trouth / as well in perceyuynge whych is the trew scrypture, as the necessarye B lernynge of the trew vnderstandynge of the scryp­ture / & ouer that of euery other thynge that god wyll haue done or bylyue besyde the scrypture. whyche scryptures ye Iewes nothynge now belonge vnto you [...] syth ye be no len­ger the chyrch for whome they serue / and as mych of them as ye can catche in youre handes, ye vse to mysse wryghte and corrupte, and chaunge the very te [...]te in suche places as the trew texte maketh for our sauyoure Cryste, and for the catholyke fayth taught by hym selfe & his holy spyryte vnto his catholique chyrche.

Thus lo, wyth yet many better thynges mo then eyther my pore wyt or lernynge can deuyse, could saynt Austayn haue answered any suche heretyque that wolde haue soy­led his reason with the Iewes argumēt, as Tyndale now C doth here..

And farther then myght saynte Austayne haue sayde to that heretyque, as we may saye to this heretyque, y what so euer the Iewes wold [...]aber or [...]angle agayne, ye that are crysten men and falsely professe Cryste, whyche fallynge from h [...]s fayth styll pretende his name, ye can not say but that the Iewe is trewly and reasonably answered.

And therfore may we saye to Tyndale, that he can not say for the mayntenannce of his solucyon, any such thyng agaynste the reason of saynt Austayne, as saynte Austayn myght haue sayd agaynst such other heretykes. For Tyndale can not saye that the chyrch of Cryste is at an ende as the synagoge of the Iewes is / nor can not deny but that he toke the scrypture of the chyrche, and lerned to knowe the [Page cclxxxvi] scrypture by the teachyng of the chyrch / & that none other A chyrche, but the knowen catholyke chyrche, vnto whyche god hath geuyn the gyfte to dyscerne and knowe the scri­pture from all other wrytyng / as Tyndales own mayster Martyne Luther as false as he is, could not yet for shame but confesse.

And thus lo good crysten reders, here ye clerely se that Tyndales example and symylitude of the Iewes, wherby he wolde shake of saynt Austayns reason made agaynst he retykes, to proue the catholyque chyrche the very chyrch, is well and clerely voyded and proued farre vnlike / so that Tyndale muste seke hym selfe a new solucyon for this. And so ye shall se hym do anon / but ye must geue him leue to rayle a lytle fyrste.

Tyndale.B

Our spyrytes fyrst fals [...]fye the scrypture, to stablyshe theyr lyes.

More.

Lo good reders, I tolde you ye muste geue hym leue to rayle a lytle, ye & to ly a lytle to / for ellys he can not speke. But yet god be thanked that hys goodnesse hath made yt well perceyued and knowen, that onely the sectys of here­tykes departyng out of y catholike chyrch, haue vsed euer y crafte, not onely to refuse for scrypture some parte of the very scrypture in dede / but also for fauour of theyr false he resyes, to chaunge, corrupte, and of purpose to falsefye, wyth rasynge and false wrytyng, the trew texte of those bokes that them selfe take and confesse for the very scripture in dede.

Lette Tyndale tell vs any one peyce of holy scrypture C that the catholyque chyrch refuseth. He can not for shame say yt / where as these heretykes refuse and reiecte diuerse partis of the pistle of saynt Iamys, and some other peyces to now and then when they ly [...]e.

Let Tyndale tell what one texte, what one worde, the catholyke chyrch hath gone about to corrupte or chaunge to make the text the more mete for theyr mater. Now hath yt ben an olde pranke of heretykes, to vse that fashyon of malycyouse corruptynge the bokes of the holy scripture in in theyr handes / as ye may rede in autentyke storyes, that the Arrianys dyd, and were shamefully taken wyth all.

Of this falsefyenge we haue also a freshe new ensample geuen vs by Tyndale hym selfe in his translacyon / wher­in [Page cclxxxvii] A he falsefyeth the trewe texte of the testament of Cryste, and putteth out both penaūce, preste, & chyrch, with cherite, grace, and all / turnynge theym into other word [...], for the settynge forth & auaūcyng of hys false faccyouse heresyes.

Of thys falsefyenge haue these heretykes also gyuē vs good ensample, in the bokes that they haue put forth, and in the calender of the sayntes haue put out saynt Po [...]ycar­pus that holy man the .xxiii. daye of February, and sette in in hys place a stark wreched heretyke, late burned at Maydeston and now burnynge in hell called Thomas Hytton, whom they call in theyr kalender saynt Thomas of Kente

Suche purpensed falsefyenge of bokes vse alway these heretykes, and none at any tyme but heretykes.

Thus do they falsefye the bokes of the olde holy doc­tours B and sayntes, such as they eyther do trāslate or cause to be put in prente, as doth in dyuers places appere, and maye be clerely proued.

And lately haue they played that pagea [...] ̄t in falsefyeng the very texte ofscrypture, in such wyse yt they shewe therin theyr honest playnnesse and theyr substancyall trewth.

For haue not some of Tyndals holy elected sorte chaunged the laten texte of saynt Poule in the fyrste pystle to the Corinthians.1. Corint [...]. [...] For where the olde translacyon hathe thys word fornicarii & the newe translacyon scortatores, which sygnyfyeth in englysshe, whore hunters / they haue put in thys worde sacerdotes, that is to say prestes.

And euen as they haue handeled the holy scrypture of god, so haue they vsed them selfe in other wryters that ex­poune C and declare the scrypture. For the Lutherans putt [...] certayne wordes of theyr owne into a boke whych is ascri­bed vnto saynt Chrysosteme, to make it seme that in whom some euer were fayth, he coulde not be possybly wythoute good workes.

And Huyskyn also in hys translacyon of the cunnynge bysshop Theophylactus vppon saynte Iohn̄ his gospell, lefte out in the exposycyon of the .xxi. chapyter, not a fewe lynes. And leste yf it were perceyued it myghte be layed to hys charge / he sayd that hys boke lacked somwhat in that place, where as other mennes bokes lacke it not.

And holy saynt Thomas alledgeth in hys boke called Cathena aurea, the wordes whyche Huyskyne wold haue seme that they coulde not be founden in the worke. But for [Page cclxxxviii] what good intent and purpose he so sayed, the place it selfe A who so euer loke theron shall very well shewe.

How maye Tyndale now good chrysten reders, consy­derynge thys false shamelesse fasshyon of falsefyenge, so dayly founden in hys felowes and hym selfe to, as well as in other heretykes of olde tyme, be now so bolde as in hys raylynge agaynste the catholyke chyrch, to name onys the name of falsefyenge the scrypture.

But now goeth he forth and sayth, that they falsefy the sentence of the scrypture.

Tyndale.

And when the scrypture cometh to lyght, and is restored vnto the trewe vnderstandynge, and theyr iuglynge spyed, and they lyke to suffer shy [...]warke: then they cast out thys ancre / they be the chyrche and can not erre, theyr authoryte is greater then the sc [...]ypture, and the s [...]rypture is not trewe, but by B cause they saye so and admytte it. And therfore what so euer they aff [...]rme, is of as greate authoryte as the scrypture.

More.

Tyndale here speketh of iewglynge, which he sayth we vse in mysconstrewynge of the scrypture, and whyche he maketh as it were now spyed out, and the scrypture resto­red vnto his ryght sense agayne. But here is it ethe to spye and perceyue his iewglynge well inough, how he iewgleth hym self ouer the style ere he come at it. For ere euer he gete ouer the hedge, & tell vs what we do whan our iewglynge is spyed / there is a lytell labour for hym of halfe a myles walkynge ere he come at the hedge, in whych he sholde tell vs and reherse vs some of those textes of scrypture, whych the catholyke chyrch or the doctours therof haue falsefyed C wyth iewglynge away the ryght vnderstandynge, & which textes hym selfe and hys secte, that is to wyt all the se [...]tes (for of them all is he as contrary as eche is to other) haue now restored vnto hys ryght sense agayne.

Thus he sholde haue shewed vs fyrste, and then haue shewed vs after what the chyrche sayth therin, & proue that exposycyon false, & that by suche exposycyon the trew sense were iugled awaye. Thys waye sholde Tyndale take.

But for as mych as he loueth well to walke in the dark, and there to iewgle as men maye not se to hys handes: I shall lyghte hym a candell and let you se for a sample some of these textes yt he meneth of, & for shame dare not speke of

He meaneth all those textes of scrypture that speke of [Page cclxxxix] A good wurkes, and by whyche textes god promyseth that good wurkes clensen our soules.Lucae. 11. As where our sauyour sayth, That thynge that ye haue more then inough gyue out in almoyse, and than lo be all thynges cle [...]e vnto you.

And where ye scrypture sayth, [...] Lyke as water quenche [...]h the fyre, so doth almoyse dede put of synne: [...] And this texte also, A mannes owne rychesse do redeme hys soule.

He meneth also all such textes of scrypture, as gyue vs warnynge that god wyll rewarde our good wurkes in he­uyn, and that for lacke of good wurkes men shalbe damp­ned in hell. As where our sauyour [...]aythe hym selfe in the gospell of saynt Mathewe,Matt [...]. [...] The sonne of man shall come in hys fathers glory with his angels, and then shall he re­warde euery man accordynge to hys dedys.2. C [...]ri [...]. [...]. And by the B mouth of saynt Poule, we muste all be browght before the iudgement seate of Cryste, that euery man maye receyue ye wurkes of hys owne body, accordyng as he hath done whyther it be good or euyll. Also in the Apocalyps,Ap [...]. [...]. I shall rewarde euery one of you accordynge to your deadys. And agayn in the .xxii. chapyter,Apo [...]. 22 Beholde I come shortely, [...]. 5 and my rewarde is wyth me to gyue euery man accordyng as his wurkes shalbe. [...] And in many playne places of scrypture more. [...]

All these textes lo do Luther and Tyndale say, [...]. 25. that the catholyke chyrch iugle from theyr trew sense, bycause they teche them as god and the holy goost hath spoken them & verely ment and entended by them.

C And all these textes do these holy sectes so restore agayn to theyr ryght sense and vnderstandynge, that they clene destroye them, and constrewe them clene contrary bothe to the playne wordes and menynge / and wolde wyth theyr euyll gloses make men byleue, that all the good workes were ryght nought worth at all, and that nothynge shalbe rewarded but onely fayth, nor no man for any thynge dāp­ned but for onely lacke of bylyefe.

And therfore sayth saynt Luther enspyred wyth the spyryte of Lucyfer, that a good man when he doth any good dede, he doth synne / and that there can no thynge dampne a chrysten man as longe as he wyll byleue. For what syn­nes so euer he do bysyde, yf fayth eyther stande styll wyth hym or come agayne vnto hym, hys fayth doth than suppe vp in a moment all hys synnes at onys, wythout any pe­naunce [Page ccxc] at all. He weneth he were suppynge vp of a rere ro­ten A egge wythout eyther brede [...]r salte / for there nedeth none other penaunce ye wote well therto, but euyn drynke well to it.

with thys goodly glose lo restore these men these textes of scrypture vnto the ryght sense agayne.

Then when we tell them that good workes by whyche they sette so lytle [...] god setteth so mych by, that by the mouth of his blessed apostle saynt Iamys, he giueth all the world warnynge,Iac [...]i. 2. that the bylyefe wherin they putte all the lyfe, is wythout good workes in hym that may wurke a thyng as to wchynge any lyfe of grace or glory clerely des [...]ytute & dede: when we tell Luther, Tyndale, or Bar [...]s this tale, then wrestle they wyth that texte, and wrythe it and wreste it about, and fayne wolde wynde them selfe out wyth iew­glynge B fayth alone into fayth, hope, and cheryte. But per­ceyuynge that folysshe iewglynge to be so fonde a poynte, that all that loke theron laughe therat / they shake of that texte an other way, and the whole pystle therwyth, bycause of other playne wordes that saynt Iamys hath therin for the sacrament of anelynge. For whyche to rydde them selfe of bothe the busynesse at onys,Iacobi. 5. and of many sore wordes also, wherwyth saynte Iamys dothe in the same pystle as playnely preche agaynste these heretykes, and as surely descrybeth theym, as though he hadde longe bene conuer­saunt & in compauy with theym / as the kynges hyghnesse excellently well marketh and reherseth: Luther letteth not vppon the boldenesse and authoryte of hys apostasye, to reiecte and caste out as no scrypture that whole pystle of C Crystes blessed apostle / sayeng that wyse men affyrme yt to be none of his, and that yt hath no smakke of any apos­tolyque spyryte. And yet blasphemeth farther and sayeth, that yf yt were his in dede, he wolde not let to tell hym, that in some thynges there the apostle toke more vppon hym then myght well become hym.

Then concernynge the sacramentes, all suche as them selfe deny, that is to wyt fyue of the s [...]uen, all suche textes as in the scrypture speke of them / those they glose as it pleseth theym. As in the sacrament of presthed, the wordes of saynt Poule vnto Timothe, by whych he playnely speketh of grace geuen vnto Tymothe2. Thimot. 1. by the puttynge of his handes vppon hym / that Tyndale sayeth was but as a man [Page ccxci] A layeth his hande vppon a boyes hed when he calleth hym good sonne.

In the sacrament of matrimo [...]y, where as saynt Poule sayth yt is a great sacramēt / those wordes gloseth Luther, and sayth that saynt Poule peraduenture sayd that of his owne hed.

In the blessed sacrament of the auter,Mat [...]. 2 [...] where as our sa­uyour sayde hym selfe, This is my body / there gloseth Luther his wordes, and sayeth yt is as myche to say, as thys is brede wyth my body. And frere Huyskyn, Tyndale, and Swynglius, glosen yt, and sayth that these wordes, This is my body, be as myche to say as this is nothyng, and but onely sygnyfyeth my body, and ys not my body at all.

And as concernynge holy vowes, where the scrypture B sayeth, Paye youre vowys / frere Luther, frere Huyskyn, Swynglius, and Tyndale, so glose yt [...] that they conclude that euery frere may sette his vowe at nought, and wedde a nunne when he wyll.

And thus lo good chrysten reders, do these holy folke brynge the scrypture to lyght,Psa [...]. 25 and res [...]ore yt to the trew vnderstandynge / and spye out the iewglyng of the catholyke chyrche, that wolde iugle awaye suche good gloses.

Now where Tyndale sayeth that we say that thautho­ryte of the chyrche is grea [...]er then the scrypture / and that the scrypture is not trew, but bycause the ch [...]rche sayth so and admytte yt: in this he sayeth his pleasure as hym lys­teth to ieste / for he hereth no man so madde to say so [...] for the scrypture were trew though neuer man loked theron. But C this in dede we say, that the chyrche hath the gyfte of god to dyscerne whyche is the very scrypture and whyche not. And yt we say true in this / not onely saynt Austayn perde, but holy Luther hym selfe also Tyndales owne mayster, bereth vs agaynste Tyndale good and substancyall wyt­nes [...]e. And we say that theruppon foloweth it though Tyndale and Luther both say nay, that the same chyrche is the very chyrche. And so we say yet agayne that Tyndale is concluded in the pryncypall poynt.

And where he sayth that we say, that euery thyng that the chyrche sayeth, is of as great authoryte as the scryp­ture: we saye that god shall neuer suffre in mater of sal­uacyon or dampnacyon, the catholyque chyrche to say but the trouth / bycause of his promyses made whych we haue [Page ccxcii] often rehersed, & bycause he wyll haue the catholyke chyrch A to be to suche as wyll lerne, the pyller and sure stablyshement of trouth, as well in doctryne of fayth as of maners. And theruppon we very truely conclude, that the whole catholyque chyrche of .xv. hūdred yere, is better to be byle­ued then Luther or Tyndale eyther in the vnderstandyng of scrypture / and that we therfore rather oughte to byleue the catholyque chyrche, that by the vnderstandynge of scrypture hath tolde vs this .xv. hundred yere, that yt is abo­mynable for a frere to wedde a nunne, then to byleue wyl­lyam Tyndale / whyche in defence of Martyne his mayster, or frere Luther hym selfe eyther, whych for the defence of his owne shamefull synne, by the false glosynge of the scripture, affermeth that freres to wedde nūnys were well and vertuously done.B

And thus ye se to what good effecte Tyndales solucyon is come / wherwyth he wolde answere saynt Austaynes reason, by ferynge hym that the Iewes myght laye the same reason for theym.

But now goth Tindale well fauoredly forth with a gret face of a no [...]her full [...]olucyon / and at a great length telleth vs in effecte none other maner thynge but the selfe same tale agayne / and yet hath he tolde yt vs onys euery dele in his other solucyon of the fyrste reason / before whych solu­cyon I haue soyled, and from all wyt and reason assoyled in my laste boke byfore.

Tyndale.

Notwytstandynge as I sayde, the kyngdome of heuen standeth not in wor­des of mannys wysedome, but in power and spyryte.

More.C

This is very well sayd / & in his solucyon of ye fyrst reason he said y [...] wote wel ye same. And now se ye wel yt for ye catholike chyrch both ye reasons be first brought forth by very spirytuall men / the fyrst reason by saynt Cypriane, the secōde by saynt Austayne. And yt hath suche power, that yt for­ced Luther hym selfe Tyndales owne mayster, to consent and agree therto. And the catholyque chyrche hath also for her parte the great power of the holy spyryte of god, that in this catholyque chyrche from the begynnynge vnto this present day, neuer hath ceaced yet nor neuer shall I trust, to shew many meruelouse myracles. wherof let vs now se whyther Tyndale spekynge so myche of spyryte & power, [Page ccxciii] A can tell vs of any spyryt at any tyme assystyng any of all ye chyrches of so many sectys of heretykes, that euer had the myght and power to shew so mych as any one myracle this fyftene hundred yere among them euerychone. But what? in stede of such spyryte and suche power, ye shall here nowe that this high spyrytuall man shall make you some strong potancyall reason.

Tyndale.

And therfore loke vnto the samples of scrypture, and s [...] [...]halt thou vnder­ [...]tande. And of an hundred ensamples betwene M [...]yses and [...]hrys [...]e, where the Israelytes fell from god and were euer restored by one prophete [...]r other, lette vs take one euen Iohn̄ Baptyste. Iohn̄ went be [...]re Chryste to prepare hys waye / that is to brynge men vnto the knowlege of theyr synnes and vnt [...] r [...]p [...]ntaunce, thorow tr [...]w expoundynge of the lawe, whyche is the one [...]y w [...]e vnto B Chryste. For excepte a man knowlege his synnes and repent of them / he can h [...]e no parte in Chryste. Of Iohn̄ Chryste sayth Matt. xvii. that he was E [...]ias that shuld come and restore all thynge. That is he shulde res [...]e the s [...]rypture vnto the ryght sence agayn / which the pharysyes had corr [...]pte with the [...]e [...]ē of theyr false gloses and vayne fleshely tradycyons. He made croked thynges streyght, as yt is wryten, and rough smoth. Why [...]he is also to l [...] vnderstande o [...] the s [...]rypture whych the pharysyes had made croked, wres [...]ynge them vnto a false sense with wyked gloses, and so rough that no man coulde walke in the waye of them. For when god sayde, honour father and mother, meanynge that we shulde obey them and also helpe them at theyr nede / the pharysyes put these g [...]ose [...]erto out of theyr owne leuen, sayenge: God is thy father and mother. Wherf [...]re w [...]at so euer nede thy father and mother haue, yf thou offer to god thou art ho [...]e ex [...]u­sed. For yt is better to offer to god then to thy father and mother, and so my [...]e more mery [...]oryous as god is greater then they: ye and god hath [...]ne m [...]re f [...]r C the then they, and ys more thy father and mother then they. As [...]ur [...] [...] af­fyrme, that yt is more merytoryous to offer to god and kis holy deed saynt [...]s, then vnto the pore lyuynge sayntes. And when god had promysed the people a sauyour to come and blesse theym and saue them from theyr synnes / the pharysyes taught to byleue in holy workes to be saued by, as yf they offred and gaue t [...] be prayed for. As oures, as ofte as we haue a promyse to be forgeuen at the repen­taūce of the herte thorow Crystes blood shedynge, put to, thou must fyrst [...]oryue thyselfe to vs of euery syllable / and we must laye our handes on thyne [...]ed, and whystell oute thy synnes, and e [...]ioyne the penaunce to make satysfaccyon. And yet art thou but loused from the synne onely that thou shalt not come in to hell / but thou muste yet suffre for euery synne seuen yeres in purgatory, [...]h [...]he is as who [...] as hell / except thou bye yt out of the pope. And yf thou as [...]e by what meanes the pope geueth such pardon / They answere out of the merytes of Cryst. And thus at the laste they graunt agaynst them selfes, that Chryste hath not onely deserued [Page ccxciiii] for vs the remyssyon of our synnes, but also the forgyuenesse of that grosse A and fleshely imagyned purgatorye, saue thou muste bye yt out of the pope. And wyth suche tradycyons they toke away the keye of knowlege, and stopped vppe the kyngdome o [...] heuen, that no man coulde entre in.

And as I sayde, they taught the pe [...]ple to byleue in the dedes of the ceremonyes, whyche god ordeyned not to iustyfye but to be sygnes of promyses, by whyche they that byleued were iustyfyed. But the pharysyes put out the sygnyfyca­cyons, and quenched the fayth, and taught to be iustyfied by the worke / as ours haue serued vs.

For oure sacramentes were onse but sygnes, partely o [...] what we shulde byleue to sterre vs vp vnto fayth / and partely what we shulde do, to sterre vs vppe to do the law of god / and were not workes to iustyfy [...].

Now make this reason vnto Iohn̄ and vnto many prophetes that went before hym and dyd as he dyd, ye and vnto [...]ryste hym selfe and his apostles / and thou shalt fynde them all heretykes, and the scrybes and pharysyes good men, yf that B reason be good.

More.

Lo good cristē reders here haue I rehersed you his long processe, not in pyeces but euē as it lyeth to gether / by whyche ye [...]ay se that Tyndale doth nothyng here, but tell vs the self same tale that he told vs byfore in his solucyon to the first reason. For there he told vs thesame tale of the scrybes, and pharysyes, and synagoges, and saynt Iohn̄ Baptyste, and Cryste, and his apostles / wyth his resemblynge of the scrybes and pharysyes, and synagoge, to the clergye and to the catholyque chyrche / and hym selfe, and his holy mayster Martyn Luther, and frere Huiskyn, frere Lābert, and Swynglius, & such other holy heretykes, vnto saynt C Iohn̄ and our sauyour & his apostles, as prophetes nowe new comen to begynne the trew chyrche of god agayne, by goynge oute of the catholyque chyrche / in lyke maner as Criste and his apostles, & saynt Iohn̄ the fore [...]oer, cam to begynne agayne the trew chyrche of god, by callynge men from the synagoge.

All this tale as he tolde yt there so now for a new thyng he telleth vs agayne here. And all this tale as I there an­swered yt and clerely proued yt noughte, so shall I desyre the reder to resort thither, and there to rede myne answere / and then shall he fynd that lyke wyse as this is but his old tale new told, so nedeth it none other cōfutacyon but euen myne answere new redde.

For where he begynneth agayne here as he dyd there, [Page ccxcv] A hys hundred prophetes that were sent bytwene the dayes of Moyses and Cryste to call agayn the Israelytes beyng so often in the meane whyle fallen from Cryste vnto idola­trye: he can neuer proue that syth Chrystes dayes the ca­tholyke chyrche hath onys so done, nor that euer it so shall here after / but yf he proue therwyth all Chrystes promy­ses broken,Lucae. 22. by whyche he hath promysed to kepe hys chyr­che therfro / as when he sayd that the gatys of hell sholde neuer preuayle agaynst hys chyrch / and that hym selfe had so prayed for saynt Peter, [...] that hys fayth whyche he confessed sholde neuer fayle nor be put out of hys chyrche / and that he [...]old sende ye holy goste therin to teche it all trouth and lede it into all trouth / and that hym selfe wold be ther wyth all dayes vnto the very ende of the worlde.

B By thys it appereth playnely,Matt [...]. 23. that though they whyche fall from thys chyrche, that is to wytte suche sectes of he­retykes as go oute therof, maye fall to idolatrye: yet the chyrche it selfe, that is to saye the stocke that standeth styll and remayneth, god shall neuer suffre to fall frō the fayth, but yf he breke all these promyses / whyche we be sure that the vnchaungeable treuth of hys owne nature, beynge as hym selfe sayde the very naturall treuth, can neuer suffer hym to do.

And so Tyndale can in thys poynt neuer make the sy­nagoge of Moyses lyke the chyrche of Chryste, that is to wytte the knowen cōtynued catholyke chyrch / to the onely whyche as saynte Austayne sayth and Luther confesseth, and Tyndale can not saye naye, god hath gyuen the grace C to knowe the very scrypture from the false, and the wordes of god frome the wordes of men, and to teche other folke the same all suche as gyue credence to it.

Besydes this, yf he wyll make hys ensample lyke / then muste he fyrste name vs a good sorte of those hundred pro­phetes, that in that meane tyme bytwene Moyses & Cryste called the people home from idolatry. And then yf he so do / he shall fynd them such as the doctryne of the latter agreed & consented with the doctryne of the elder / or yf god by the lat [...]r opened and reueled any ferther thynge, he yet by my [...]acles and other open meanes proued them for so good & holy, y though the peple and the princes both dyd dysalow them, and hated them, and kylled theym to / yet when they were dede, varyed they neuer so farre from theyr doctryne, [Page ccxcviii] and were the neuer so farre from the folowynge of theyr lyuynge A whyle they lyued, yet they perceyued them after for sayntes, and had them in perpetuall honour and reuerence to theyr owne condempnacyon as oure sauyour sayeth by theyr contrary lyuynge and persecutynge of the lyke, and yet to the testymony of the trouth thorough goddes pro­uysyon, for the profyte of other that wold both folow them and byleue them better.

And therfore yf Tyndale wyll now make hys mater good and hys ensample lyke / he muste reherse vs a lyke sorte of some suche other holy prophetes, as god hath syth the deth of Cryste in thys .xv. hundred yere, sent hyther to call home his chyrche from idolatry / as those other prophetes were that he speketh of / sent in shorter season, to call home agayne the Iewes.B

Thys must he shewe vs yf he shewe any thynge to pur­pose. And then whome shall he name vs? Nicholaus and Cheryntus, Uigilantius Dormitantius, Manicheus, Ualentinus, Arrius, Iouiniane, Heluidius, Ennomius, Marcion, Montanus, wyclyffe, and Husse / and a sorte of lewde wedded freres, as Luther, and Lambert, and Huyskyn / or prestes apostataas from the chrysten fayth, as Pomeran, Suynglius, and Huchyn here hym selfe. If he name you these / let hym proue them onys good men, or at ye lest wyse some one amonge them all, let hym proue theyr doctryne agreable, or at the leste wyse obstynately not repugnaunt / let hym that sheweth any ferther thynge then hys felowes, by some maner meane proue hym selfe sent by god, or such a man at the leste wyse as the people myghte haue cause to C reken hym for hys lyuynge, a man very lykely for god in so greate a mater to chese oute specially and sende forth on hys errande.

But thus ye wote well that of all these that are dede, the worlde hereth not a good worde that euer there was one good of them, but openly condempned for false. And as for these that nowe lyue / we se well at our owne eyen, they be starke rybaudes all [...] And agrement in theyr doctryne, ney­ther is there none now nor neuer was there yet. Myracles as shamelesse as they be, they can not for shame saye that euer they shewed any. So that these were neuer any of the holy men, whom god hath sent to call home hys chyrche so often from idolatry to [...]ayth, as Tyndale sayeth that the [Page ccxcvii] A hundred prophetes an hundred tymes called home the Ie­wes. And yet suche muste he shewe yf he saye aughte to purpose.

And therfore yf these heretykes wyll nowe be resembled to Chryste and hys apostles and to saynt Iohn̄ / let Tyn­dale tell vs whyche of them to whyche of these? If these be now sent to call the catholyke chyrche to the ryghte faythe from whyche it was fallen before, as Chryst was and hys apostles wyth saynt Iohn̄ hys fore goer to call home the synagoge / than lette Tyndale now tell vs whyche of them he resembleth to saynte Iohan, whyche to Chrystes apo­stles, and whyche vnto Chryste hym selfe. And yf he lyken Luther to Chryste, thenne who was Luthers saynte Iohn̄ Babtyste and fore goer / or ellys whose fore goer and bap­tyste B is Luther, to whome maketh he the waye now as the tother dyd to Chryst? I wene in good fayth to Antechryst, and so forth to the deuyll of hell.

How be it of treuth, holy prophetes hath there bene sent vnto the worlde by god and into the chyrche of Chryst, mo then an hundred syth the deth of Chryste, to kepe in the ryghte fayth and calle home the people fro synne, by the trewe doctryne of the spyryte, inspyrynge theym the ryghte sense of scrypture, & what so euer god wolde haue knowen besyde. whose doctryne in the necessary poyntes dyd agre togyther, and which were holy men, so knowen well whyle they lyued, and so taken after theyr deth declared for god­des messengers by many a myghty myracle.

Of these men may I name full many of sundry tymes, C as saynt Ignacius [...] saynte Policarpus, saynte Cypriane, saynte Basile, saynt Crysosteme, saynt Leo, saynt Hylary, saynt Ierome, saynt Ambrose, & saynte Austayne.

Now yf Tyndale dare saye that hym self meneth these / then say we that none of these called vs to Tyndals fayth. For none of them dyd constrewe the scrypture as Tyndale doth. And therfore hys fayth is not Chrystes fayth, nor Tyndals doctryne agreable and consentynge to theyrs. For yf Tyndale dare saye that hys doctryne and theyrs agree / lette Tyndale then of theym all name vs now some o [...]e that euer called relygyous persons to the brech and cō tempte of theyr vowes, and sayd that chastyte was an vn­lawfull vowe, & wolde that monkes and freres sholde rūne out and wedde nonnes.

[Page ccxcviii]Then syth that of hys hundred prophetes bytwene A Moyses and Cryste, Tyndale leueth of foure score and nynetene, and is content to take no mo but saynt Iohn̄, to shewe that hym selfe doth go from the catholyke chyrche & rebuke the doctryne therof, as saynt Iohn̄ dyd fro the sy­nagoge, & rebuked the doctryne of the phareseys: he muste shewe vs as I answered him ī my sexte boke, y or he proue saynt Iohn̄ and hym selfe matches in that poynt, he muste proue that hym selfe was prophecyed vppon to be the fore goer of some newe Cryste as good as euer was the olde. He muste also shewe vs hys lyuynge somewhat more lyke the lyuynge of saynt Iohn̄ then it appereth yet.

Also bycause he sheweth no myracles / he muste proue vs that hys newe Chryste to whome hym selfe is the fore goer, must do suche myracles as our olde Cryste dyd / and B then bere wytnesse of Tyndale hys holy baptyste, as oure Cryste bare wytnesse of the tother. And all thys in hys lyfe besyde myracles many shewed for hym when he is dede.

Fynally yf he wyll saye as he meneth here, and playnely sayth in hys other solucyon to the fyrste reason, that he and hys felowes do now rebuke the doctryne of the catholyke chyrche, in lyke maner as saynt Iohn̄ the baptyste & Cryst dyd rebuke the doctryne of the scrybes and pharyseys: he muste proue vs that of those scrybes and pharyseys which taught the doctryne that saynt Iohn̄ baptyste and our sa­uyour rebuked, were holy men and saynte [...]. For els sayeth Tyndale no thynge to the purpose / for [...]s myche as hym selfe can not saye naye, but that many of those that haue taught the thynges that Tindal [...] and Luther now rebuke C were holy doctours and sayntes of euery age synnes Cry­stes dayes to theyr owne.

And thus ye se good readers, that where Tyndale byd­deth vs loke vppon the olde ensamples, and then pyketh out specyally saynt Iohn̄ Baptyste to resemble hym selfe & hys prechynge to, and hys demeanure agaynste the catho­lyke chyrche, vnto saynt Iohn̄ and his demeanure toward the synagoge / is as vnlyke as are whyte and blacke.

Now shall ye well perceyue, that the persons of saynte Iohn̄ Baptyste and of syr wyllyam Tyndale, be not mych more vnlyke, no nor so farre vnlyke neyther not by a great dele, as are the thynges that saynte Iohn̄ reproued in the [Page ccxcix] A doct [...]yne of the scrybes & pharysyes, and the thynges whyche Tyndale reproueth in the doctryne of the catholyque chyrche.

How be yt Tyndale to make them seme lyke, dyssymu­lyng the greatest thynges & of most weyght, pyketh oute a fewe thynges wherin he wolde make the mater seme som­what lyke / & yet fyndeth he none very lyke. And ouer that where they seme lyke, he maketh theym seme lyke wyth lyenge.

For fyrste he begynneth as ye haue herde wyth the false glose of the pharysyes, by whyche many of them falsely cō strynge goddes commaundement of honourynge theyr father and mother, mysse taughte the people, that what nede so euer theyr father and mother had, yet yf they offred vnto B god, they dyd better then yf they holpe theyr father & theyr mother therwyth. And when he hath tolde this of the pharysyes / then resembleth he the doctryne of the chyrche ther to, and sayth, As ours now af [...]erme that yt is more merytory [...]use to [...]f [...]re to god and his holy sayntes dede, then vnto the pore lyuynge sayntes.

Lo good reder here knoweth Tyndale well ynough that he lyeth to make the two thynge seme lyke / and yet he ma­keth them not lyke. For well ye wote, there is no lytle dyf­ference betwene the thynge that Tyndale sayth here, the chyrche teacheth to be more merytoryouse to of [...]re to god then to gyue to a pore man / and the thynge that he sayth the pharysyes taughte, that yt was more merytoryouse to offre vnto god, then helpe his father with y money, were he in neuer so great nede. For I am not lyke boūden to helpe C euery straunger yt is a porem, tanhat is say in some pouer­ty / as to helpe myne owne father that were im extreme necessyte. And yet as vnlyke as they be, these two thynges doth Tyndale here lyken to gether. Myght he not here ly­ken almoste as well Powles steple to a dagger sheth?

And yet in this lykenynge as vnlyke as they be, he let­teth not a lytle to lye, to lynke them so nere to gether.

For I wysse Tyndale know [...]th very well, that no man teacheth so precysely as he reherseth / yt yt is better to offre to god and hys holy sayntes dede, then vnto the pore ly­uyng saynts. But the doctryne of the chyrch is as hym self can tell full well yf he lysted not to lye, that whych of those two thynges offrynge or geuynge in almoyse is for the tyme more merytoryouse, dependeth vppon the cyrcum­staunces [Page ccc] of the dede, & the persons at the tyme. For yt were A not alwaye trew to saye, that I muste helpe my father by­fore a straunger, nor my selfe byfore a nother man. For my father may percase haue some nede and my selfe both / and yet not so myche, but that I were bounden for the tyme to geue fro my selfe, & yet not to my father, but for the tyme to some straunger whome I neuer knewe byfore / his neces­syte may be suche.

And therfore the catholyque chyrche teacheth, that both to gyue almoyse is good, and to offer is good / and he that hath wherwyth to do both, ought to do the tone, and doth well to do the tother. But where the tone ys better and where the tother / is to be consydred by hym that doth yt, vppon the tyme and persons, and many other cyrcum­staunce mo then well can be comprehēdyd and gyuen men B in wrytyng, vnder any suche certayne rules, but that some tyme they may fayle. But reason ruled by charyte and de­uocyon, shall not nede to fere but they shall do bothe full well, and perceyue suffycyētly where the tone is to be done and where the tother, yf they folowe not these heretyques in contempnynge the tone.

1. Corinth. 7.The chyrch sayth as saynt Poule sayth, that vyrginyte is better then y worke of wedloke. yet meneth neyther the chyrche nor saynt Poule that yt so were, yf there were but one man wyth one woman left a lyue in all y whole world.

Matth. 26Saynt Mary Magdaleyn was more alowed of Cryst fo [...] bestowyng that costely oyntement vppon his hedde, so fully and so frely that she brake the glasse, and all to s [...]ewe that she wolde none spare for her selfe / then yf she had sold C yt as Iudas wolde haue had yt, and geuen the money to pore men.

And yet dyd she yt but to do hym pleasure wyth, as men dyd then vnto gestes to make them chere with all / as folke do now caste damaske water and burne plesaūt perfumes. All be yt vnware to her selfe se dyd in dede worke a myste­ry therin, that dyd betokē his beryeng. But god as I say the thāke yt he gaue her, he gaue her not for ye mystery wher­upō she thought not / but for her deuout mynde y she bare towarde hym. And yet peraduenture neyther she wold nor god wolde she sholde, haue bestowed yt so in case yt hadde happened that there had lyen a man so lyke, that wtyhout yt oyntement he shold haue / dyed & that she had well wyste [Page ccci] A or thought, that she might by that oyntement saue his lyfe and by nothypge ellys.

But all be yt there were pore men very many whom she myght haue refreshed, & well wyste there were so: yet syth she neyther knewe theyr nede for so great that requyred so sodayne helpe, nor other mennys deuocyon for so small, but that they myghte be holpen by other folke / she neyther thought her self boūden nor no more she was in dede, to folowe the counsayle of Iudas in geuynge the pryce to pore men, rather then in wytnesse and testymonye of her good wyll and deuocyon, te spende yt out in pleasure vppon the blessed body of Cryste. And yet was he not rauyshed wyth the odour of her oyntemēt, but wyth y delyte of her deuocyon / in whych he delyteth yet when any man doth the lyke.

B And therfore I say, that though the pharysyes taughte wronge, whome saynte Iohn̄ reproued and our sauyoure hym selle also, in that they taught that yt was better to offre the money to god, then honoure and helpe theyr father and mother therwyth were theyr nede neuer so great: yet the chyrche teacheth ryghte. For yt teacheth playne the cō trarye therof / and sayeth that the pharysees taughte false / and teacheth onely that to offre to god and his sayntes is well done, and that to helpe pore men and gyue almoyse muste nedes be done. And when and in what case the tone is more merytoryouse then the tother, the chyrche teached many good and resonable rules / and yet can no man well tell so many, but that as I sayde some tyme the reason of the man ruled wyth charyte and deuocyō that cōmeth and C worketh wyth grace muste be his guyde therin.

But now these new men begyn to geue a certayn rule, that as they say shall put vs quyte out of all doute, when we shall do the tone and whē the tother. For therin lo thus they say. Offrynge say they, to god or to sayntes, and lyke wyse byeldynge of chyrches, byenge of copes, bokes, sur­plyce, and chalyce, be thynges voluntarye, to the doynge wherof no commaundement of god constrayneth the. But as for geuynge of almoyse is a thynge necessary, wherun­to god by his own biddyng byndeth the. And therfore fyrst euermore geue thy money to the pore men that nede yt as longe as there be any, And then lo whē there be no mo pore men left y ye may bestowe youre money vppon / go to then good crystyens in goddes name and bestow the remanaūt [Page] wheron ye wyll, euen vppon pylgremages yf ye lyst, lo and A vppon offrynges, and byeldynge of chyrches, and byeng of bokes, and copes, and crosses, and shyppes, and sensers hardely to for me. And therfore saye not now yt we say that the volūtary thynges be not lawfull. For we say no more, but ye the necessary thynges must nedes be done fyrste / and I wysse good crystyens ye wote well your sel [...]e that is ve­ry good reason.

Now to thende that ye may good reders the better per­ceyue whyle they teache in thys maner, what theyre very mynde is in the mater / ye shall vnderstande that it hap­ped my selfe to be vppon a tyme present in a certayne as­semble of personages, bothe of great honoure and also of great connynge / in whyche amonge other thynges that were there treated of, one that hadde in sundry places preached B after suche maner fashyon as I haue here rehersed you, was demaunded and asked whyther yt were ynough byfore a man bestow his money vppon such kyndes of volūtary, to helpe fyrste such pore nedy folke as he happened to here of vnsought or ellys that he must besydes that by­fore he bestowe any money other wyse, seke and serche a­bout whether he may fynd any mo. wherunto he answered well and playnely, that we be fyrst bounden to seke & serch & be sure therof / namely bycause of suche as can not come forth but lye styll bedred at home / & some that be peraduenture a shamed to offre theym selfe and begge,

Then was he demaūded farther, syth yt was not inough to geue pore men whē they asked, nor where we foūd them by happe / but we were forther boūden before we bystowed C ought vppon volūtarye, to seke and serche out such neces­sary: whyther yt suffysed then to take for our parte those nedy folke that were founde in oure owne paryshe, or ellys that we muste extende oure almoyse farther to the whole towne. wherunto he answered, that neyther suffysed oure paryshe nor our towne, no nor all our own whole countrey neyther / but where so euer there where any pore nedy men, we were bounden to helpe theym all, byfore we sholde any thynge bestowe vppon suche kyndes of voluntary / so that fynally the man was fully mynded, rather to send vs all to Rome to seke & serch out some pore man and bere him a pe­ny thether, then to suffer vs spende a halpeny eyther oute or at home, vppon any offerynge eyther to god / or saynte [Page ccciii] A or byeldynge of chyrche or garnysshynge therof, or byenge of any ornament therfore.

And surely yf these folke saye well / then Mary mawde­layne dyd not wel, but was mych to blame.Matth. 26 For I am very sure, and our sauyour hym selfe shall bere me recorde, that yf she wolde haue soughte and serched, she moughte haue founden in Hierusalem euyn at her hande, pore nedy men inough to haue receyued twyse as mych money as all that oyntement was worth.

Cryste blamed not those that offered into the treasory of the temple,Ma [...]. 12. nor sayd that they offered to myche / but ra­ther by praysyng of the pore wydow that offered somwhat of her pouerty, rebuked the rych folke for offeryng to [...]ytle / all be it that as the gospell sayth, many offered mych. And B yet as I sayed of thys am I very sure, that they myghte haue had poremen inough to bestowe that money vppon in relyefe necessary, that they there spent vppon the tem­ple, a thynge as these men call it, voluntary.

How be it I meruayle why they sholde call it all voluntary, for some of it be thynges that must nedes be done. For chyrches at the leste wyse muste we nedes haue / and yet therto saye some of these folke naye.

But holy saynt Chrysostome calleth vpō folke to byeld chyrches there as it semed necessary / and that so farforth, that rather then to leue that wurke vndone, he wolde they sholde gyue the lesse to pore folke to do the tother wythall. And thenne dare I saye that he wolde haue men bye bothe bokes and chalyces and other ornamentes therto.

C And thus may we sone se, that these new sectes of Tyndals sorte be farre fro saynt Chrysostomes mynde. For ye may well perceyue by theyr doctryne, that when they wold haue all pore men sowght out euer and serued, and euery mannes necessyte done, before any of the tother thynges that they call voluntary shold be by any man begon / what other prechyng is thys, but vtterly to forbyd thē, not with playne wordes, but wyth wurse then playne wordes, wyth blasphemouse mockerye, knauysshe derysyon and scorne.

And surely that worde of Tyndale in whyche he calleth the sayntes that are departed dede sayntes / all be it that there were none harme therin spoken by a good mannes mouth, yet hath it a shrewde sygnyfycacyon spoken out of hys / syth Luther and he wene that there were not one of [Page ccciiii] theym all in heuyn, but that they lye all in a slepe styll no A man woteth where / and therfore Tyndale bydded vs pray to theym when we speke wyth theym / so that tyll than, he wolde we sholde let them alone.

And thus good chrysten reders, for conclusyon of thys poynt, ye maye clerely se that concernynge offerynges to god or hys sayntes, or money bestowed aboute those good wurkes that these folke call all voluntary, the chyrche te­cheth ryghte / as appereth well by playne and euydent scrypture. And that the doctryne of the pharyseys whyche Cryste reproued, the chyrche reproueth also and therof te­cheth the contrary. And so the doctryne of the chyrche and the doctryne of the pharyseys in thys poynte, wherin Tindale resembleth them togyther and lyeth to, to make them lyke / be no more lyke togyther, then is chalke to colys.B

Nowe is all the remanante of hys processe as ye haue herde, nothynge ellys but raylynge vppon the doctours of the catholyke chyrche, for byleuynge that the sacramentes be not bare sygnes and tokens, and bycause of the by­lyefe of purgatory.

Now am I very gladde that ye se so clerely, that those whome thys newe saynte Iohn̄ Baptyste calleth phary­seys, be all those olde holy doctours and sayntes that haue bene in euery age thys fyftene hundred yere. For all they haue byleued in the same sacramentes that we do, and the same thynges that thys newe baptyste rebuketh.

And in lykewyse of purgatory Tyndale can not saye naye. For I haue in my thyrde booke of hys confutacyon, layed hym playne wordes of dyuers of the eldest and most holy doctours / and amonge other saynte Chrysostome,C wrytynge that the apostles them selfe prayed for soules in theyr masses.

And now se you playnely that Tyndale calleth theym all pharyseys therfore / and is come as a newe saynt Iohn̄ Baptyste, to shewe vs that by name thys .viii. hundred yere, but by his declaracion thys .xv. hundred yere, the pharyseys, that is to wytte all the holy doctours and sayntes that haue bene all thys whyle in chrystendome from Cryst hym selfe hytherto / the treuth of whose fayth, and the ho­lynes of whose lyuynge, our lorde hath illustrate and set [...]e out vnto the shewe wyth many a thousande myracle / haue made the scrypture croked and rowgh / wrestynge it wyth [Page cccv] A false gloses / makynge men byleue that there were purga­tory, and that men sholde knele to Crystes crosse and kysse it, and wurshyp Crystes holy body in the blessed sacramēt, and kepe the chastyte that they haue vowed to god / tyll now lo that thys newe seynt Iohn̄ baptyste is sent downe to prepare the waye for Antichry [...]e, and make the rowgh smothe and the croked strayte, and to turne the hartes of ye fathers vnto the chyldren, wyth makynge the worlde now to be of the same harte and mynde, that the olde holy fa­thers haue ben of in olde tyme.

And how wyll thys holy baptyste do all thys gere, and thus turne the hartes of the chyldren and the fathers all in to one? surley by techynge the chyldren as well in fayth as lyuynge, the very clene contrary of all that euer theyr olde B holy fathers thys .xv. hundred yere haue taughte them / & with tellyng vs that all the olde fathers were [...]yke the false pharyseys, and corrupted the scrypture as pharyseys dyd wyth false gloses / teachynge good workes and sacramentes, and kepyng of holy vowes and suche other synfull su­perstycyons. And therfore doth thys holy new baptyste to purge and puryfye the people, byd vs now byleue that to breke the vowe of chastyte is a good wurke and well done / and that all other good wurkes be nought worth / and baptysme as lytell worth, bycause ye pres [...]e speketh to the chyld in laten a langage that the chyld vnderstandeth not / as he sholde full well ye wote well, yf the tale were tolde hym in hys mother tong.

Then techeth he vs that confessyon is the deuyls inuencyon, C and absolucyon ys but whystelynge. Satysfaccyon greate synne to do any.

The sacrament of wedlocke he sayeth is suche, that he coulde make as good a sacrament of an olde nette / sauyng onely when freres wedde nonnes / for thā is it holy in suche holy folke.

The sacrament of holy order he iesteth vpon, wyth sha­uyn, and shorne, and oyled, & waggyng of the bysshoppes hand / and saynt Poules hand layde vppon Tymothe, but lyke a mannes hande layed on a boyes hedde and call hym good sonne. The sacrament of extreme vncciō he calleth but gresynge the syke man. The sacramēt of confyrmacyon he calleth but smeryng of the chyldes face, and butte­rynge of the boyes forehed.

[Page cccvi]The holy blessed sacrament of the aulter, the very pre­cyouse A body and bloude of our sauyour hym self / this holy new baptyste forbedyth to haue any honour done vnto it / but onely take it for a memoryall of hys passyō. And then he iesteth theron hym selfe, & sayth that it is no thyng ellys but wyne and cake brede, excepte it be peraduenture tur­ned into starch.

Lo good Chrysten readers here is the doctryne of thys nowe baptyste / not saynt Iohn̄ Bapty [...]te but syr wyllyam Baptyste [...] thys holy wyllyam Tyndale otherwyse called Huchyn scolare to frere Huyskyn / whyche hath here made you of the synagoge scrybes and pharyseys, such a goodly paynted processe as he hath now tolde you twyse / a serued you wyth a Iak of Parys, an euyll pye twyse baken, to declare you twyse the greate frute and profyte that the world B maye now taken yf it wyll [...] by hys holy comynge into it, to preche and rebuke the pharisaycall doctrine of all the olde holy sayntes, and teche hys owne godly chry [...]ten heresyes suche as ye now haue herde.

And now yf thys gere be good / then haue we surely great cause to thanke god. For then can we lacke none holy baptystes to preche vs. For there is not I wene so pore a vyl­lage in chrystendome, in whyche there is dwellynge any one vyllayne knaue, but he maye be wythin thre dayes (yf he be not all redy) suche an other baptyste as thys is / and rebuke all that good is wyth suche abomy [...]able blasphe­mye as now Tyndale doth, yf any chrysten mannes [...]a [...]ys can abyde the herynge.

But yet remember good readers, that in the conclusyon of all that tale / he knytteth it vp with a fresh lusty poynte,C and soyleth all the reason in thys wyse.

Tyndale.

Now make this reason vnto Iohn̄ Baptist and vnto many prophetes that went before hym and dyd as he dyd, ye and vnto [...]rys [...]e hym selfe and his apostles / and thou shalt [...]ynde thē all heretykes, and the scribes and pharysyes good men, y [...] that reason be good.

More

Thys poynte is lo the olde poynte, whych here, and in hys solucyon to the [...]yrst reason, he hath put forthe four or fyue tymes before / sauynge that he gyueth allway hys old poynt at one ende, or other some newe aglette. But when all hys coste is done theron / it is not all worth an aglet of [Page cccvii] A a good blewe poynt. For I haue in my syxte boke answe­rynge hys solucyon to the fyrste reason, shewed you many answeres that saynt Iohn̄, and Cryste, and hys apostles, and other pore folke to, very farre vnder them, myght saye for them selfe agayn [...]te the scrybes and pharyseys / whyche thinges neyther Luther, nor Tindale, nor none of all theyr sectes can say for thē selfe, agaynste the catholyke chy [...]che. And yet more shall I shew you of the same sorte, when ye haue hard what Tyndale can here saye for hym selfe. A [...]ter all whych thynge harde & well wayed / ye shall well and clerely perceyue, that for Tyndales tale, the reason of saynt Austayne that Tyndale here speketh of, beynge made by the Iewes agaynste saynt Iohn̄ and Cryste and his apostles, shall haue no strength at all, neyther to proue theym B euyll nor the pharysyes good. And yet the same reason beynge by the catholyque chyrche made agaynst Tyndale and Luther, and Huyskyn, and Swynglius / muste nedes proue the catholyque chyrch to be the very chyrch of Cryst / and that Luther and Tyndale, and all they, with all those that byleue them, be playne vndouted heretyques.

And therfore let vs fyrst se with what euasion Tyndale wyll auoyde this reason, for hym selfe and his own sectes. And then what Cryste can saye more for hym selfe and his company, we shall se somwhat after.

Tyndale lo teacheth his dyscyples to answere the rea­son thus.

Tyndale.

Therfore this wyse thou mays [...]e answere. No thankes vnto the [...] that chyrche that the scrypture was kepte, but vnto the mer [...]y of go [...]. [...] C as they had destroyed the ryght sense o [...] yt for theyr [...]re sa [...]e / [...]uen [...] they ha [...]e destroyed yt also had they c [...]ulde, rather t [...]n [...]he people shol [...] [...] come vnto the ryght vnderstandyng of yt / as they [...] the tr [...]we interpre­t [...]u [...]s and preachers of yt. And euen so no th [...]es vnto our ypocrites that the scrypture is kepte, but vnto the botomles [...]e mercy of god.

For as they haue destroyed the ryght sence of yt wyth theyr seuen, an [...] as they destroye dayly the trewe preachers o [...] yt, and as they [...]e [...]e yt from the laye people that they shold not se how they [...] wyth yt / euen so [...] they destroye yt also coulde they bryng yt about [...] rather then we shulde come by the trewe vnderstandynge of y [...], were yt not that god prouyded other­wyse for vs. For they haue put the storyes that shuld in many thynges helpe vs, clene oute of the waye / as nye as they coulde. They haue corrupte the [...]e­gende and lyues almoste of all sayntes. They haue fayned false [...]okes, and put them forth, some in the name of saynt Hi [...]rome, some in the name o [...] saynte [Page cccviii] Austayne, in the name of saynte Cypriane, saynte Dyonyse, and other holy A men. [...]hych are proued none of theyrs / partely by the style and latyne, and partly by autētyke storyes. And as the Iewes h [...]ue set [...]p a boke of tradicy [...]s called Talmud, to destroy the sence of the scrypture / vnto whych they ge [...]e fayth, and vnto the scrypture none at all be yt neuer so playne, but saye yt can not be vnderstande saue by the talmud: euen so haue curs set [...]ppe theyre Dunce, theyr Thomas, and a thousand lyke draffe, to stablyshe theyr [...] lyes th [...]row f [...]lsefyeng the scrypture / and say that it can not be vnderstande with out them be yt neuer so playne. And y [...] a man allege an holy doctour agaynst them, they g [...]se hym out as they do the scrypture, or wyll not heare, or saye the [...]hyrche hath otherwyse determyned.

More.

Nowe good crysten reders here haue you herde one of his answers, whych how yt maketh any thynge to the purpose, surely that se not I. For where as the reason of saint B Austayne is, that men may perceyue that this knowen catholyque chyrche is the very chyrch, in that that god hath vnto this chyrche geuen his gyfte of dyscernynge the very scrypture of god from the counterfete, and to receyue the tone and reiecte the tother / and that he hath so geuen that grace vnto this chyrch onely, that no man can ordynaryly be sure whyche wrytynge is holy scrypture and whyche is not, but by the tradycyon of this chyrche and credence ge­uen therunto / for yf he toke yt of a company of heretiques, yet euermore those heretykes lyke as they came out of this whole chyrche, and theyr authours and begyn [...]ers were onys a parte therof, and then of this chyrche receyued the scrypture byfore they departed oute therof / so dothe euer­more the credēce wheruppon the knowlege of the trew scrypture C dependeth, that credēce I say resorteth euer vppe to this whole catholyke chyrche / vnto whyche wythoute credence had ben geuen, none heretyke had knowen whyche were the very scrypture. For the profe wherof, we yet se y these h [...]retykes in so ferforth as they byleue the chyrch, in so ferforth they knowe whyche is the scrypture / and in so ferforth as they byleue not the chyrche, they perceyue not whyche is the scrypture, though they haue it in theyr han­des and rede yt. As ye may se by the pistle of saynt Iames / whyche pystle Luther and frere Ba [...]ons let not to reiecte and set a syde for nought. And thus euermore heretikes all the scrypture that they know, by the catholyke chyrch they know. For to this onely chyrche as Tyndales owne mayster [Page cccix] confesseth, hath god gyuen that gyfte to dyscerne the trew scrypture fro the false. And syth that god hath geuen this great spyrytuall gyfte onely to the chyrche, whyche gyfte is a begynnynge of spyrytuall lyuely doctryne / yt therby well and clerely appereth to any man that wyll not wylfully wynke, that this chyrche is the very chyrche, of whyche god wyll haue men lerne.

Now good cristen reder, this beyng the reason and purpose of holy saynte Austayne / and hauyng in yt selfe suche strength, that Luther coulde not hym selfe say nay therto / not withstandynge that the confessynge therof must nedes ouerturne his here [...]yes: now byddeth Tyndale his dyscyples, that they shall answere therto, that the catholyque chyrch is not to be thāked for the scripture that we receyue B therof, but the botomlesse mercy of god / & here is all thys whole answere to the reason / for all the remanaunt is no­thynge ellys but raylynge agaynste the chyrch.

Now what goth this answere to the purpose? who byddeth hym geue the thanke to the chyrche? let hym lyke as he byleueth the chyrch that the gospels of the foure euan­gelystes be the trew gospell of Cryste, so know therby and byleue that the same chyrche, by whyche he knoweth that poynt, and whyche in that poynte he byleueth, is here in erth the very chyrche of Cryste / and then let hym geue the thanke to god, wythout whose grace workyng wyth hym, he coulde not byleue the chyrche neyther in the tone poynt nor the tother / and for lakke of whose grace, whych grace he lakketh not but in his own defaut, he now byleueth not C the tone poynte as he dothe the tother, excepte he lakke so mych that for his malyce he byleue neyther nother. I pray god geue hym onys the grace to byleue both / and when he so doth, then shall he haue the grace therwyth to perceyue, that he hath for the knowlege of the trewe scrypture frome the false, great cause to geue thanke to both. Fyrste & pryncypally to god that gaue that gyfte vnto his chyrche, and wrought wyth hym to byleue yt / and after to the chyrche, that was a meane and mynyster in bryngynge that grace vnto hym / and cause also to be gladde a great dele in hym selfe, that he resysted not god and his chyrche, but folowed and went wyth them in callynge hym home agayne, to the bylyefe of god and his chyrche, from the damnable wayes of his malycyouse errours.

[Page cccx]And now that ye playnly perceyue that this answere of A his nothynge toucheth the purpose / I wolde very fayne passe ouer his folyshe raylynge, sauyng that yt semeth necessary that the foly and lyes of suche false frantyque heretykes may be well knowen, lest some good symple soules may wene them wyse and trew therwyth, and theruppon be deceyued and byleue them.

Fyrste he rayleth vppon the doctours of the catholyke chyrch, & sayth yt they haue destroyed y right sence of y scripture with theyr leuyn. Now all this ye wote well he mea­neth, in y they teach that folke shuld not trust in only fayth wythout good workes of cheryte and of penaūce, and that they teache that freres sholde not wedde n [...]nnys, and that crysten men sholde praye for all crysten soules, and [...]holde haue Crystes holy sacramentes in reuerēce, and specyally B the blessed sacrament of the auter, the precyouse body an [...] blood of Cryste hym selfe, and other suche thynges lyke.

This is the leuen for whych Tindale doth now damne here the doctoures of the catholyque chyrche. But euery man well woteth, and hym selfe to though he say nay, that this doctryne is of y leuen wherwith the woman of whom Cr [...]ste speketh in the gospell of saynt Matthew, dyd leuen all her whole dough and mele / that is to say of that leuen wyth whych not onely all the old holy doctours, but also y blessed apostles them selfe, & our sauyoure Cryste also hym selfe, leuene [...] [...]he brede of theyr doctryne, whych eyther in wo [...]des or wr [...]ynge they taughte vnto the crysten f [...]oke. All which leuen Tyndale wold now take out, and leue vs the scrypture vnsauery.C

Then rayleth he forth on and sayth, They destroy dayly the tr [...] preachers o [...] yt.

Here let hym name whyche / and then s [...]all he name you suche as wolde destroy the leuen that I now rehersed you, whyche Cryste hath hym self put in our brede / suche as for the more parte wolde take his owne blessed body out of the sacrament, and leue there for our soules nothynge but vn­sauory brede, or as Tyndale argueth yt starche in s [...]ede of brede. I wolde he wolde name them all that haue nowe be burned here in Englande, by the meane of his own bokes. As Baynam the iangler, and Hytton y Ioyner, & Teukesbery the purser, and B [...]yfeld thapos [...]ata, a worshyppefull sort o [...] preachers. And yet shall Tyndale fynde none of all [Page cccxi] A these or any other that I haue herde of here, but that he eyther though he helde some of Tyndalys, yet he forsoke as false, some parte of Tyndals heresyes / or held as trew some such thynge besyde, as Tyndale wolde I wote well yf hym selfe were apposed, afferme to be very fals [...]. And of this yf Tindale dare deny it / I shall playnely proue both the partes. And therfore let Tyndale of those that h [...]ue ben burned here, chose whych he lyste / and name of th [...]ym all some one that he wyll call a trewe prechour / and than shall I proue you shortely, that yf that prechour be trew, Tyndale shall euyn by that prechour whom hym self wyll name for trewe, be playnely proued false.

Then rayleth he ferther on and sayth, They [...]ture from the laye people, that they sh [...]e not [...].

B I haue in the boke of my dyaloge proued all redy [...] that Tyndale doth in thys poynt falsely belye the clergye / and that of trouth wyclyffe, and Tyndale, and frere Barns & suche other haue bene the onely cause for whych the scrypture hath ben of necessyte kept out of the lay peoples handes / and that of late, specyally by the polytyke prouysyon and ordynaunce of our most excellent souerayne the kyn­ges noble grace, not wythoute greate and vrgent causes manyfestely rysynge vppon the false malycyouse meanes of wyllyam Tyndale / for whych all the lay people of this realme, bothe the euyll folke that take harme by hym and the good folke that lese the profyte by hym [...] haue grea [...] cause to lament, that euer that man was borne.

Then forth he goeth on ferther in hys lyes and sayth [...] C They haue put the storyes that sholde in many thynges [...] waye as nygh as th [...]y coulde.

How proueth Tyndale thys lye of hys to be trewe [...] let hym proue hys lye trewe in some one story that the chyr­che hath put awaye / and then tell vs thys tale agayn. For they neuer put any awaye, but suche as were fayned go­spels and fables / whyche the chyrche by the spyryte of god (whose gyfte Luther confesseth it to haue in that poynte / dyd euer more consyderately reiecte and auoyde / as it partely appereth by saynt Hierom, concernynge the booke of the infancye of our sauyour. But fayne wolde Tyndale haue some such fals & fayned storyes remayne & taken for scrypture, to thende & entēt that as his h [...]resyes be by the very scrypture cōfuted and reproued, so they myght be by some such false scrypture mayntayned agayne & allowed.

[Page cccxii]But then rayleth Tyndale ferther yet, and lyeth agayn A agaynst the chyrche and sayth, They haue corrupted the legende and lyues all moste of all sayntes.

who hath corrupted these legendes? let hym name some one and proue it, or els let hym leue of hys lyenge.

The legendes of sayntes lyues were wryten in dyuers tymes, as the sayntes in dyuerse tymed lyued, and in dy­u [...]rs dyed / of whose lyues the chyrch none other knoweth, but as they fynde wryten or herde by good folke that knew them / sauyng that the spyryte of god by whych it knoweth and dyscerneth as saynt Austayn sayth & Luther hym selfe alloweth, whych is the very scrypture, shall not suffre it as that holy doctour saynt Thomas sayth, to erre and be de­ceyued, in takynge for a saynt any dampned person, & therby geue to goddes enemye the honour dew to hys frende.B And by thys spyryt what so euer be wryten in the legende of any saynte, the chyrche dyscerneth yf any thyng were at any tyme in the good man a mysse / & so taketh it as a faute for the tyme and afterwarde amended / as we rede of some of Crystes owne apostles reported in the very gospell.

And the chyrche also doth not precysely bynde any man to the bylyef of euery thyng wryten in a legend, as though euery sayntes legende were parte of the scrypture of god.

But the thynge that Tyndale is offended wyth is this, that the legendes of sayntes testyfye theyr holy lyuynge & myracles that god shewed for them / wherof we fynde no legende lyke that euer was wryten for any saynt, that in ob­stynate heresyes departed & dyed out of ye catholike chyrch.

Now confesseth Tyndale that all the sayntes legendes be not so corrupted, but he saith almost all. In which word C he sayth inough for vs agaynst hym selfe. For let hym leue neuer so few, & tell vs which they be / and I dowte not then in good fayth, but that we shall in that fewe fynde thynges inough to proue hys heresyes false.

yet goth he ferther agaynste the chyrche and sayth, They haue fayned false bookes and put them forth, some in the name of saynt Hier [...]m, some in the name of saynt Augustyne, and in the name of saynt Cipryane, saynt Deonyse, and other holy men / whych are proued n [...]ne of theyrs, partely by style and laten, [...]nd partely by autentyke storyes.

Here wolde he fayne good chrysten reders bryng vs all in dowte of all the olde holy doctours wurkes / bycause he were lothe by hys wyll, that any were of them all byleued.

[Page cccxiii] A But what great harme and losse were there in the mater, though it somtyme happed the boke of one good holy man to be named the boke of an other / as a boke of saynte Au­stayn to be taken for a boke of saynt Ambrose? There were in such a mater no very great hurte yf it so happed in dede.

But to the entent that ye shall playnely perceyue that thys tale of Tyndale wherwyth he wold fayne blynde vs, shall nothynge serue for hys purpose / let hym take the bo­kes of whyche hym selfe nothynge douteth, and euyn by yt selfe same shall he fynde hys opynyons proued playne he­resyes. Or ellys let Tyndale fynd vs in some of theyr trew bokes, whych he douteth not to be theyr owne in dede, let hym proue I saye by theym, that all those bokes be falsely put out in theyr names / in whych bokes he fyndeth yf they B be trewe, all holy saintes agre agaynst hym selfe that good wurkes are merytoryouse, & that folkes do well to honour sayntes & theyr relyques, and go in pylgrymages, and to praye for all chrysten soules, & to honour the blessed sacra­mēt, and that it is abominable for freres to wedde nonnes, & such other thynges lyke. Let Tindale I say fynde vs the contrary of these [...]alys taught vs in theyr trewe bokes / or els let hym tell vs no more of hys own tale, but leue of his lyes lyke a fole,

And fyrst for the meane whyle, the boke in whych saynt Austayn maketh thys reason that we now talke of for the catholyke chyrch / Tyndale doth hym selfe cōfesse to be the very boke of saynt Austayne. And then doth this r [...]ason a­lone playnely & perfytely proue this knowē catholyke chyrche, C to be the very chyrche of Cryste / & consequently therby proueth Tindale that techeth the contrary, to be in the grettest poynte that any man lyghtely can fall in, & on whiche poynt most heresies do depēde, a very playne opē heretyke.

Now where he rayleth on and sayth, that Lyke wyse as the Iewys had set vp a boke of theyr Talmud to destroye the sense of the scrypture, so the chyrche hath set vp he sayth theyr Dunce, theyr Thomas, and a thou­sand lyke draffe, to stablysse theyr lyes thorow falsefyeng the scripture: I can no scyll of the Iewes Talmud / but one thing I dowte not of, but y theyr Talmud in yt it gaue false expesycyō was a late thyng at the comyng of Cryst, yf they had thē any such boke. And I dowte not but that the thinges that were fals therin, varyed from the consent of theyr olde exposytours, by whych the falshed of it myght be spyed & controlled and [Page cccxiiii] be byleued the lesse.A

But our doctours of these eyghte hundred yeres laste passed / all whome thys worthy wylde gose calleth draffe, do consente and agre wyth the olde holy doctours of the tother .vii hundred yere afore. And as well all those olde whom he dare not call but holy, as these other thousande whom he calleth draffe, drawe by one lyne all the mayny, to dreue Tyndale as a drudge of the deuyll out of Crystes chyrche for an heretyke / or ellys as I haue almost a thou­sande tymes desyred hym, let Tyndale tell vs of all those old, which one taught it for lawfull a frere to wed a nōne.

Now where the wretche rayleth by name vppon that holy doctoure saynt Thomas, a man of that lernyng that the greate excellent wyttes and the moste connynge men B that the chyrche of Cryste hath hadde synnes hys dayes, haue estemed and called hym the very floure of theology, and a man of that trewe perfyte fayth and crysten lyuynge therto, that god hath hym selfe testyfyed hys holynesse by many a greate myracle, and made hym honowred here in hys chyrche in erth, as he hath exalted hym to greate glory in heuyn: this gloryouse saynt of god wyth all other lyke, and those be of trouth all the whole many bothe olde and newe togyther, all whome therfore by the whole thousand on an hepe (for no fewer he nombreth them) doth thys de­uelysshe dronken soule abomynably blaspheme, and cal­leth them lyars and falsefyers, of scrypture and maketh them no better then draffe. But thys drowsy drudge hath dronken so depe in the deuyls dregges, that but if he wake C and repente hym selfe the soner / he maye happe ere awghte longe, to fall into the messhynge fatte, and turne hym selfe in to draffe, as the hogges of hell shall fede vppon and fyll theyr belyes therof.

But when the beste hath thus blasphemed theym all / then wold he wynde out with a wyle, and make men wene that he ment but the doctours of these last eyghte hundred yeres / which were yet inough to laye such a raylyng knaue eyghte hundred myle depe in hell.

But syth he sayth a thousand lyke vnto saynt Thomas / he can not so escape, as though he met but saynt Bernard, saynt Bonauenture, saynt Ancelme, and suche other holy men of these eyght hundred yeres passed laste / but he must nedes take into them, all the olde holy sayntes of the seuen [Page cccxv] A hundred yeres byfore, as many as in suche thynges as Tyndale fyndeth fawte wyth expownyng the scrypture a­gaynst the mynd of Tyndale, lyke wise as saint Thomas doth. But nowe to coloure his blasphemy / those wolde he sholde seme were none. And therfore [...]o thus he sayth.

Tyndale.

And yf a man alledge any holy doctour agaynst them, they glose hym out as the do the scrypture, or wyll not here, or say the chyrche hath other wyse determyned.

More.

Lo good cristen reder this false pageaunt playeth Tyndale in mo places then one / makynge as though that in the maters of his heresies the new doctours onely were a­gaynste hym. And yet calleth he the new, the doctours of B eyght hundred yere olde / and suche a new cote I wold he gate hym, and were oute his olde the whyle.

And then maketh he as though the old of the tother se­uen hūdred yere byfore, were vpon his parte all the whole mayny, and cōstrued the scripture as he doth, and condēne these exposycyons that the new doctours of eyght hūdred yere olde and vnder haue made synnys.

And he sayth that agaynste all holy doctoures when he layeth any one agaynst vs, we glose hym out, or wyll not here hym, or say the chyrch hathe otherwyse determyned. Here must Tyndale vnderstand, that we neuer bynde hym to any thynge of necessyte vppon the saynge of any one doctoure be he olde or yonge / but eyther by the comen faste fayth of the whole catholyke chyrch, growē as yt euer doth C by the spyryte of god, that maketh men of one mynde in his chyrche, or by the determynacyon of the chyrche assembled for such causes in the generall counsayles. [...] And then the comen fayth of olde tymes byfore our dayes, we pre­sume to be suche of lykelyhed / as we perceyue by the olde holy sayntes bokes that they were of them selfe. For other wyse then by bokes can we not knowe what the people by­leued a thousand yere ago / but yf we myght talke with the men them selfe and aske theym.

Now yf Tyndale coulde laye vs for his purpose peraduenture, a worde of some one holy man / yt were no reason to bydde vs byleue that one byfore the cōsent of many, nor agaynste the comen bylyefe of the catholyque chyrche se­cretely growen to consent by the holy spyryte of god, nor [Page cccxvi] agaynst the consent of the catholyque chyrche dyffynynge A that poynt in a generall coūsayle thorow the same spyrite.

Now when we thus do / Tyndale can not say that we refuse to here that one holy man whome he shall peaduen­ture alledge vs for his purpose. For in thus doyenge, we do here hym and folow hym. For euery one of all the olde holy men dyd euer submytte his owne mynde to the deter­mynacyon of the catholyque chyrche, and bode euery man do the lyke.

And of them all we wote wel Tyndale fyndeth not one, that sayth contrary to thys. How be it thus myche haue I shewed you, rather to tell vs somwhat of the authoryte of the catholyke chyrche aboue any one holy man, then for a­ny holy man that euer I thynke Tyndale shalbe able to brynge forth for the confyrmacyon of his heresyes.B

But now to put this mater out of all dowte and qustey on, & that euery man may se whether Tyndale speke here in ernest as he thynketh, or ellys sayth all thys but for a shyft / let him now stande well to his tacklynge, and stykke styffely therto. Let vs concernynge the ryght construccyon of scrypture or corruptynge the trew sense therof, cōsydre some one heresye of his, for whyche the chyrch calleth hym heretyque, let vs se now.

we saye that yt ys abomynable for a monke or a frere to wedde a nūne / Tyndale sayth we saye wronge, and that a frere to wedde a nunne is very well done and lawfully. when we forbede yt, we lay the scrypture for vs. Uowe ye and pay yt. And saynt Poule spekynge of the wydows, whych after theyr chastyte vowed vnto god wold fall then C agayne to maryage, sayeth that they hadde theyr damnacyō bycause they therin brake theyr formare faith. Tindale sayth we construe the scrypture wrong / and layeth scryp­ture for his part the wordes of saint Poule. Better yt is to wedde then to burne. we say he construeth wronge. If we wolde alledge for vs thexposycyon of saynte Thomas, or saynt Anselme, or saynt Bonauenture, or saynt Bernard, or a thousan [...]e suche lyke to geth [...]r, that were alyue at a­ny tyme this eyghte hundred yere / Tyndale wolde call yt our Talmude, and say they were all but draffe.

But then he sayth agayn that when he wyll alledge any holy doctour for his parte agaynste vs, we wyll glose hym out, or ellis we wyll not here hym, or ellys we wyll say that [Page cccxvii] A the chyrch hath other wyse determyned.

Lo good reders here are we comen to gether Tyndale and we to the very point, where you shall se now how courteysly I shall handle hym.

Let hym laye forth for his parte some one holy doctour, and I wyll here hym, and I neyther wyll glose hym oute nor saye the chyrche hath determyned otherwyse. For I wene the thynge was neuer taken for so doutefull, that euer the chyrche sholde haue neded. But though yt haue determyned yt / yet wyll I wynke there at and dyssy [...]ule yt, and wyll not saye, The chyrche hath other wyse deter­myned yt.

And therfore I wyll alledge no suche thynge. But let Tyndale laye forth any one holy [...]an for hys parte / and B ye shall se what I shall yet more do [...]or hym. This wyll I lo do for hym. All be it that I haue for my parte not on­ly all the holy doctours of these [...]yght hundred yeres, all whome Tyndale taketh fo [...] d [...]affe / and all be yt that I haue also for my parte holy saynte Gregory, holy saynte Austayne, holy saynte Ambrose [...] and holy saynte Hierome, foure the specyall doctoures of Crystes chyrche / and bysydes theym a great mayn [...] that I coulde name holy do­ctoures and sayntes, some of a thousande yere, some of xii. hundred, and some thertene, and some very farre a­boue, and the yongeste aboue nyne hund [...]ed at the leste: let Tyndale I saye for his parte in the mater, lay me forth of all the hole doctours and sayntes no mo but [...]uen som [...] one / and I shall be content this ones for Tyndales sake C to byleue that one agaynste all his felowes / whych I w [...]ll neuer do for no mannys pleasure I promyse you but [...]y [...] onely for hys.

But now on the tother syde, yf he can not bryng so m [...]ch as one, as I wote very well he can not / and we can a­gaynste hym brynge so many as hym selfe can [...]ell w [...]ll ynough [...] lette hym then for very shame confesse that he by­lyeth the chyrche, when he sayth we wyll byleue no holy doctoure. And then lette hym also for very shame confesse, that in his owne poynte at the leste bothe Luther and hym self, and all the shamelesse harlottes of theyr secte, do shamfully mysse constre the scrypture / and wyth some newe Talmude of the deuyls deuyse and theyres, do corrupte and falsefye the very trew gospell of god.

[Page cccxviii]This lo ye se well Tyndale muste grau [...]te at the laste / A whyche yf he be so shamelesse as to denye yt styll, then wyll euery man yt wytte hath, graunte & agre yt for hym. And then muste yt nedys folowe farther, that all theyre whole doctryne is but playne frantyke heresyes / and that theym selfes beynge so shamefull shamelesse vnreasonable ray­lynge rybaudes, be men full vnmete for god to sende on his message in so great a mater, namely as to tourne the worlde wyth rybaudry fro synne.

To thys goodly passe hath Tyndale brought this pro­cesse, and shewed vs here two solucyons, both one & both suche as ye se.

But nowe shall ye se hym playe the man in the thyrde. For thus lo he teacheth his dyscyples yet a thyrd answere, bycause he seeth well that the tother twayne were nought.B

Tyndale.

Now therfore when they aske vs how we know that yt is the scrypture of god / aske theym howe Iohn̄ Baptyste knewe, and other prophetes whyche god s [...]red [...]ppe in all suche tymes as the scrypture was in capty [...]yte vnder ypocrytes. Dyd Iohn̄ byleue that the scrybes, pharysyes, and prestes, were the trew chyrch of god and had hys spyryte, and could not erre? who taught the egles to spye oute theyr pray? euen so the chyldren of god spye out theyr father / and Chrystes electes spye out theyr lorde, and trace oute the pa [...]hes [...]f hys fe [...]e and folowe / ye though he go vppon the playne and lyquide water, whyche wyll receyue no steppe. And yet there they fynde out his [...]ote / hy [...] electe know hym, but the worlde knoweth hym not Iohn̄. 1. If the worlde know hym not, and thou call the worlde pryde, wrath, enuye, couetousnes [...]e, slowth, glotonye, and lechery, then our spyrytualtye knowe hym not. Chrystes shepe heare the voyce of Cryste Iohn̄. x. where the worlde of ypoc [...]ites as C they knowe hym not, euen so the wolues heare not his voyce, but compell the scrypture to heare them and to speke what they lyste. And therfore excepte the lorde of Sabooth hadde lefte vs seed / we had ben all as Sodome and Gommor sayde [...]saias in his fyrste chapyter. And euen so sayd Paule in his tyme. And so euen say we in our tyme, that the lorde of the h [...]stes hath saued hym seed, and hath gathered hym a flocke, to who [...]e he hath geuen [...]ares to heare and eyes to se that the blynde leaders of the blynde can not se / and an herte to vnderstande, that the generacyon of poysoned vypers can neyther vnderstande nor knowe.

More.

Lo good crysten reades, here maye ye clerely se what a strength this reason of holy saynt Austayne hath, agaynst whyche these heretikes are fayne to fynde so many shyftes [Page cccxix] A and euer the latter y lewder. For in thys answere Tyndale is yet ferther fallen in foly, thenne in any of those two that he made before, as fonde as they were bothe.

Theffecte of all thys answere is, that hym self and such other hys felowes as take opynyons agaynst the knowen catholyke chyrch, nede not to recognyse and knowlege the knowen catholyke chyrche for the very chyrche / and that the reason that saynt Austayne made therfore is not suffy­cyent / that is to say, that sauynge for this catholyke chyrch they shold not haue knowen any trewth at all, not so mych as whyche were the trewe gospell and whyche not / & ther­fore sholde not haue byleued the gospell saue for thys ca­tholyke chyrche.

Thys reason sayth Tyndale is nothyng worth. For we B that are electe sayth he and therfore are the very chyrch, do not knowe by the catholyke chyrche whych is the very gospell and the trew scrypture / no more then dyd saynt Iohn̄ Baptyste and the other holy prophetes afore hym, knowe whyche was the trewe scrypture of god by the scrybes and pharyseys and the hygh prestes / whom they dyd not knowledge for the trewe chyrche, nor for those that had the spy­ryte of god and coulde not erre. But hys felowes and he syth they be goddes electes and therfore the very chyrche, do knowe he sayth whyche is the gospell and whych is the very scrypture, by the same meanes by whyche saynt Iohn̄ Baptyste and the other holy prophetes before hym knewe the very scrypture of god / that is to wytte by the secrete in­warde techynge of the spyryte of god / euyn in lyke wyse as C the egle wythout the techynge of any other spyeth percey­ueth & knoweth whyche beste or byrd is mete for hys meate and conuenyent for hys pray, by the secrete inwarde mo­cyon and instincte of nature. And therfore by thys answere is that reason of saynt Austayne auoyded.

Here is lo good chrysten reader all thys answere & thys goodly solucyon, nothyng lefte out that hath any strength or force towarde the purpose [...] but layed yet more dyrectely for hys purpose then Tyndale layeth it hym selfe / saue for leuynge out of the raylynge, wherof we maye peraduen­ture somwhat touche by the way.

But fyrste consyder what blont sotletees & what folysh fallacys he bryngeth in thys answere. He wol [...] brynge vs frome the poynte, wyth lykenynge the whole catholyque [Page cccxx] chyrche of Cryste, that is to wytte the whole multytude of A all trewe chrysten people of whyche our mater is, vnto the scrybes and the pharyseys, & the hygh prestes / as though they alone had ben the whole chyrche of the Iewes / or the hygh prestes of one town, the whole vniuersall synagoge.

Thys sotletye of Tyndale is as blont as a blocke, and to great for any mā to stūble at y hath any eyen in his hed.

Nor I nede not for this mater to defende that the whole synagoge could not erre in the choyce of the scrypture, nor that the whole synagoge was vntyll Crystes comynge the very chyrche of god neyther, nor to admytte as Tyndale here maketh it euery thynge to go lyke betwene the whole synagoge of Moyses and the catholyke chyrche of Cryste / bytwene whyche twayne, all be it that the tother was for that whyle the very chyrch in dede, there is yet in maner as B great dyfference, as is bytwene the fygure and the thynge, the shadow and the body / as by many maner thinges farre dyfferent I myght well shew you / & among other no small dyfference bytwene them, in the thynge that most properly perteyneth vnto the poynt wherupon specyally dependeth the mater that we haue in hande, that is to wytte the ke­pyng & preseruyng of the tone or the tother from all dampnable errour. In thys poynt I saye there is specyall dyssy­mylytude bytwene the synagoge and the chyrche / for the promyses that Cryste hath made vnto the chyrche to sende hys holy spyryte in to it to lede it in to all trouth,Ioh [...]n. 16 and that it sholde dwell therin for euer,Matth. 28. and hym selfe be permanent also therin for euer.

And therfore syth all these infallible meanes of techyng C of the trowth & preseruacyon of the trowth, hath ben made vnto the chyrche of Cryst by hym that is hym selfe trowth & therfore can not lye / which promyses were neuer made a lyke vnto the Iewes: I nede not here as I saye no more answere Tindale, though in dede I haue done & wyll, then I nede in a maner yf he wolde put his ensamples by some other y were a fals chirch & were deceyued, & had fals scripturs in dede. For it is inough to me that the chyrch of Crist hath that gyfte of god by his great promyses, that it shall euer be by him & his spyrit led into euery necessary treuth / of whyche one of the most necessary is, to knowe whych is the trewe scrypture. And it is inough agaynste Tyndale, that hys owne mayster Luther sayth that thys catholyke [Page cccxxi] knowen chyrche hath that gyfte. And it is a clere thyng to A me and all chrysten men, that none other chyrche hath that gyfte but the catholyke chyrche / syth euery man seeth that the thynge is trewe whyche saynt Austayne sayth, that he had not knowen whyche had ben the very gospell, & ther­fore had not byleued the gospell, saue for the catholyque chyrche.

And as that holy saynt sayth of hym selfe / so may euery man well saye of hym selfe, that by the catholyke chyrche he knoweth the scrypture / whyche no man can reken hym selfe surely to knowe by any other folke, then those whom he rekeneth surely to be the very true chyrche and the mes­senger of god to tell it hym. For ellys maye euery fole se, that as he dowteth of the messenger, he must n [...]dys dowte B of the message.

And therfore now lette vs loke on this answere of Tyndale. I lerned not sayth he of the catholyke chyr [...] to know whyche is the trewe scrypture. Of what man than say we [...] Of no man sayth he but euyn god hym selfe / and so sayth he do all my felowes that are the electes of god as I am. we lerne it now of our lorde hym selfe, as dyd of olde our other felowes that are gone before vs that were elected of god as we be, that is to saye saynt Iohn̄ Baptyste and the other holy prophetes before hym.

Here ye se good readers for aughte that euer I can do, Tyndale wylbe saynt Iohn̄ Baptystes felowe, and all his companyons felowes wyth the olde prophetes and wyth Chrystes apostles, and in some places wyth Chryste hym C selfe also.

But thys wyll I promyse you, that yf saynt Iohn̄ Baptyste and the olde prophetes, eche of the other prophetes in theyr tyme, had had wyth the Iewys the same thynges in questyon that we haue wyth Luther and Tyndale & these other heretykes in our tyme / that is to saye yf the Iewes had sayd that they had bysyde the scrypture some other tradycyon delyuered them by Moyses, & preserued fro mouth to mouth wythout wrytynge / or that they had varyed togyther vppon the ryght vnderstandyng of the scrypture, & then the Iewes wolde haue sayd ye know not whych is the scrypture but in that ye byleue vs / & then yf ye byleue vs in y, we tell you Moyses wrote vs this, why sholde you not as well byleue vs whē we tell you Mo [...]ses told vs this [Page cccxxii] If ye thynke we lye in the tone, ye maye thynke we lye in A bothe, and then do ye knowe neyther nother. And also syth ye byleue vs that god hath gynen vs the trewe scrypturs, and vnto no man ellys so myche as the meane to knowe whych it is but onely by vs / why sholde ye not thynke that ha [...] [...]uen vs the ryght and trewe vnderstandyng therof for as farre at the leste as shalbe requysyte and necessary. If these had bene the varyaunces bytwene the Iewes and saynt Iohn̄ baptyste, or bytwen the Iewes and the prophetes, as it is bytwene these heretykes and vs / and that the Iewes had then layed thus vnto them: yf that then saynt Iohn̄ and the prophetes coulde haue made no better an­swere to them for theyr selfe, then Tyndale doth to vs now for hym selfe / surely than lyke as thys answere is such that we maye well laugh at hym, so had it be such as the Iewes B wolde haue laughed at them.

But neyther were these poyntes the questyons then bytwene theym (though some of thys was afterwarde in de­bate bytwene Cryste and the pharyseys) and therfore these ensamples of saynt Iohn̄ and the prophetes be layed here to no purpose.

And also yf it had so bene / saynt Iohn̄ and those prophetes had other answeres to haue made thē, suche as I haue shewed you in my syxte boke.

And fynally yf they wolde haue vsed thys answere that Tyndale here maketh, bothe for them and hym [...]elfe / then yf the Iewes had laughed therat, and sayd how pro [...] you that god hath taughte you to knowe the trewe scrypture wythout vs / they had not onely the knowen approued vertue C of theyr lyuynge, but also myracles to proue them trew messengers. And thus had euery one of theym / and saynte Iohn̄ bothe in hys father before hys concepcyon, and then agayne at hys byrthe, and the olde prophecye fulfylled in hym, and the wytnesse of Cryste testyfyed for hym, & therby dyd [...] all Crystes myracles bere wytnesse wyth hym.

These thynges had they for theyr answere, wyth which the Iewes well myghte and of reason muste, haue holden them selfe fully content and satysfyed.

And now in lyke wyse, for as mych as I knowe well ye god is at hys owne lybertye, hauynge hys power absolute free & vnboūden vnto any maner of hys ordynary course / and therfore maye yf it please hym by some secrete inspyra­cyon, [Page cccxxiii] A teache Tyndale, & Luther, and Huyskyn, & Swyn­glius, and all the rable of those electe and specyall chosen heretykes, whyche wrytynges be the very scryptures of god, wythoute any teachynge of the catholyque chyrche: therfore yf Tyndale or Luther or any of all the remanaūt make by miracle any dew profe yt god hath so done in dede, and that he so hath sent hym hyther for suche a newe pro­phete to teache vs, he shall haue my plyable. For after that profe onys made / let hym tell my what he wyll and I wyll byleue hym tyll Antechryste come. For vntyll that tyme I truste heretyques shall do no miracles.

But as for yet in the meane season, syth I se none other man say so of hym selfe, as Tyndale saith of hym self & his felowes, and holy saynte Austayne sayth the contrarye of B hym self: tyll Tyndale proue yt trew that he sayth of hym selfe, that he knoweth the trew scripture not by the chyrch but by specyall inspyracyon of god inspyred into hym selfe, and some suche other specyall chosen electes, such as no where in this worlde I wene god coulde haue chosen worse / Tyndale muste of reason geue vs leue to laugh at his prowde inuented folye. And I shall fynde hym foure suertyes very good and suffycyent, that at what tyme her­after he proue hym selfe a trewe prophete, I shall vppon reasonable warnynge onlaugh agayne yt all.

But yet leste men shold take hym for a fole, yf he shold set forth suche a poynte so farre vnlykely, and therfore so farre vncredyble, wythoute any profe at all / he prou [...]h yt at the leste wyse by thensample of a very goodly byr [...] and C kyng of all fowles, the plesaunt splayed egle. Forsyth that suche a byrd can spye his pray vntaught, whych he co [...]d neuer do but by the secrete instyncte of his exceliet nature, to farre excedynge all other: yt muste nedys folowe perde that Tyndale and Luther in lyke wyse, and Huyskyn, and Swynglius, and suche other excellent heretykes, beynge in goddes fauour as farre aboue all the catholyke chyrche as an egle the ryche ryall kynge of all byrdes, is aboue a pore peny cheken / must nedes I say wythout any lernyng of any man, be tought to knowe the trew scrypture beyng theyr pray, to spoyle and kyll and deuour yt as they lyste, euen by the specyall inspyracyon of god.

But nowe ye se well good reders by thys reason, that saynte Austayne in respecte of these noble egles that spye [Page cccxvi] this pray wythout the meane of the chyrch, was but a sely A pore cheken. For he confesseth playnely agaynst such hygh egle heretykes, that hym selfe hadde not knowen nor byleued the gospell but by the catholyke chyrche.

How be yt is no great me [...]uayle, syth god is not so fa­mylyare wyth suche symple chykyns, as wyth his gay gloryouse egles.

But o [...]e thyng is there that I can not cease to meruayle of / syth god inspyreth Tyndale and such other egles, and therby maketh them spye this pray them selfe: how could yt happe that the goodly golden olde egle Martyne Lu­ther hym selfe, in whose goodly golden neste thys yonge egle byrde was hached, sakked that inspyracyon. For he aloweth saynte Austayns saynge / & denyeth not but that hym selfe spyed and perceuyd this pray of the trew scryp­ture B of god, by beynge shewed yt by the catholyke chyrch / But if Tyndale saye that Luther therin lyeth, and that hym selfe wyth his felynge fayth fele more in Luthers fayth concernynge his bylyefe of the scrypture, than Lu­ther doth hym felfe.

How be yt I wysse when our yonge egle Tyndale ler­ned to spye this pray fyrste, he was not yet full fether [...]d, but scantly comē out of ye shell / nor so hygh flykeryd in the aer aboue all oure heddes to ler [...]e yt of his father the olde egle heretyque / but was content to come downe here and walke on the grounde amonge other pore fowles the pore chykens of his mother thys knowen catholyke chyrche / of whom when he hath all sayde, he lerned to knowe thys praye.

And nowe takynge that for trouth (as treuth yt ys in C dede though Tyndale lyst to lye and tell vs nay) when he hadde lerned of the chyrche whyche was the scripture / this wote I well he rekened not hym self at that tyme to vnderstand yt by specyall enspyracyon, For I can proue that he redde some commentours and holy doctours, that wryte exposycyons vppon yt. And to what purpose dyd Tyndale rede theyr bokes? to byleue hym selfe better then them all? If he so ment / then myghte he well haue spa [...]ed laboure. For he myghte haue byleued hym selfe and lette theym all alone.

Nowe yf he lyste to byleue hym selfe in thynges beynge yet but in questyon, where he seeth them vary and dowte: [Page cccxxv] A yet muste he byleue them better, in thynges so playne and clere, that he [...]eeth them therin all of one mynde agreed.

Now go me then yet agayn to [...]rere Luther his mayster and his maystresse the nunne. wherin he can not say naye but they condemne hym all / and then shall ye se for lakke of other shyf [...]e this fayre egle byrde fowle befyle his nest.

But yet is yt a worlde to heare, what a goodly castell Tyndale byeldeth in the ayre on hygh vppon hys egles bakke. For when he hath told vs ones that the egle of him selfe wythoute any teachynge, spyeth out his praye / then goth he forth goodly wyth an hygh spyrytuall processe, & sayth, [...]uen so the chyldren of god spye oute theyr father and mother

He meaneth of lykelyhed god for the father. But what chyrche meaneth he for his mother? For he can not spye B out the vnknowē chyrch. And the knowē catholyke chirch whyche is the spouse of god in dede, and therfore by all the olde holy fathers comēly called the mother of all chrysten people, he wyll not know for his mother. And so I se well Tyndale meneth for his mother, some old mother mawde, some baudy chyrche of heretykes.

But then goth he [...]orth wyth his floryshe on this fashyon. And Chrystes e [...]ec [...]e spye cute theyr lorde, and [...]race oute the [...]athes of hy [...] fete and folowe / ye though he go vppon the playne and lyqui [...]e water, whyc [...] wyll [...]eceyue no s [...]eppe. And yet there they [...]yn [...]e out his fete.

These wo [...]des walke [...]o very goodly by the herers eare, & they make a mā amased in a maner & somwhat to studye and muste when he hereth so straunge a tale tolde of suche holy electes, so spy [...]nge oute the fote where the soyle receyueth C no fotyng and steppynge, after the steppes of Cryste in the lyquyde water whyche can no steppes receyue, and therfore receyued the steppe of [...]aynt Peter so depe, that he stepped in aboue the knees, and had stepte ouer the hedd [...] to, electe as he was, had not his mayster holpe hym / but the water doth of trouthe receyue and kepe no steppes of any man, when the body passeth from yt / but yt receyueth shortely the steppes of euery man, ye and of euery woman to, but she gete her on a pace, wyth tryppe and go quykly and walke wonderouse lyghte.

But now yf a man in the redynge forgete not hym selfe wyth [...]ynge, but consydre what he redeth and e [...]amyne yt well / he shall not so myche meruayle of Tyndales farre fette holynesse, as he shall wonder in a man wenynge hymselfe [Page cccxxvi] so wyse, to se suche a folysh forgetefulnesse.A

For where he sayth now that all thelectes [...]ch out and folow the very steppes of Cryste euyn fote for fote, where neuer a steppe appe [...]eth: he hath hym selfe shewed vs in his other chapiters afore, that the electes thor [...] the [...]aute of theyr frayle membres, though neuer into dedely synne, yet now and then among steppe into theft and aduowtry, treason, manslaughter, [...]nd periury, and other such horryble dedes. And these thynges lo many ryght honeste men teken not in theyr reason any folowynge of the steppes of Chryste, but yf Tyndales electe chyrche haue spyed oute any specyall gospell. For the catholyque chyrche in all the foure euāgelystes, spyeth not that Cryste stepped any such one steppe in all the dayes of his lyfe.

Some men wolde here loke that I sholde also laye to B Tyndale, the steppes of frere Luther into the nūnys bed / whose steppes as theyre chyese electe other lewde electes folowe, very farre fro the steppes that Cryste stepped on the mount of caluary. [...]ut let that passe for this onys, and here forth syr wyllyam Tyndales sermon.

Tyndale.

His electe know hym, but the world knoweth hym not Iohn̄. 1. If the world know hym not, and thou call the worlde pryde, wrath, enuye, couetousnesse, slowth, glotonye, and lechery, then our spyrytualtye knowe hym not.

More.

Those wordes of oure sauyour sauynge for sekynge of occasyon of raylynge, Tyndale bryngeth in here to very lytle purpose. But as he ly [...]teth here to rayle vpon the clergye C of the catholyke chyrch, so yf yt lyke hym now to turne the glasse and loke agayne vppon hym selfe and the holy spyrytuall heddes of hys owne sectes, Luther, Lambert, Huyskyn, and Swynglius, with all the [...]able of heretikes vnder theyr rule / he shall fynde by the same texte and hys owne exposycyon therof, that amonge all theym neyther clergye nor laye knoweth Chryste / but yf rebellyon be no pryde, nor raylynge vppon theyr betters none enuye, nor manslaughter no wrath, nor robbery no couetyse, nor sluggyng a bed no slouth, nor dronkenesse no glotony, nor fre­res luskyng a bed wyth nūnes no lechery. But he lyketh so well hys raylyng, that on he runneth therwyth and sayth.

Tyndale.

Chrystes shepe heare the voyce of Cryste Iohn̄. x. where the worlde of ypocrites [Page cccxxvii] A as they know hym not, euen so the wolues heare not his voyc [...] [...]ut [...] the scripture to heare them and to speke what they lyst. And therfor [...] e [...]ept the lorde of S [...]booth hadde lefte vs seed / we had ben all as [...]odome and [...]ommor sayde [...]sa [...]as in his fyrs [...]e chapyter. And euen so sayd Paule in his tym [...] And so e [...]en say we in [...]ur tyme, that the lor [...]e of t [...] [...] seed, and hath gathered hym a flocke, to whome he hath geuen [...] and eyes to se that the blynde lea [...]ers of the b [...]ynde can not se, and an [...] to vnderstande, that the generacyon of poysoned vypers can neyther [...] stande nor knowe.

More.

Now good chrystē reders here hath Tyndale made the prophete Esaye, and saynt Poule, & our sauyour hym selfe as hys seruauntes and instrumentes / abusynge theyr ho [...]y wordes agaynste the catholyke chyrche of Cryste / whyche wordes they spake agaynst Paynims Iewes & heretykes.

B Now the ipocrytes & wolues he calleth the catholykes / and the shepe and lambes those he calleth the heretykes / in thys is hys menynge very playne and open. But now the seed that god hath lefte them as he sayth, wyth whyche the god of hostes hath gathered hym / this flocke he meneth not. But syth ye knowe the flocke that he meneth, ye maye sone perceyue the menne of whose seed this flocke is fedde. Now loke then vpon the seed, wyth whyche the flocke of the catholyke chyrche hath bene alwaye fedde from age [...]o age / & in y seed fynde ye saynt Ignat [...]us [...] saynt Polycar [...] saynt Deonise, saint Ciprian, saynt Chrysostom [...] saynt [...] syle, saynt Gregory Nazanzene, saīt Ireneꝰ, saint Euseby, saynt Athanase, saynt Hyla [...]y, saynt Cyryll [...] saynt Sy [...], saynt Leo, saynt Hierom, saynt Ambrose, saynt Austayne, C saynt Gregory the pope, saynt Bede, saynt Berna [...]d [...] saynt Thomas, saynt Bonauenture, saynt Anselme [...] and ma [...]y an holy man mo of euery age synnys the apostles dayes / which were all lefte by god for seed in the knowē catholyke chyrch / whyche knowen catholyke chyrch they euer know­leged for the very chyrch of Cryste, & toke alway for heretykes all that departed from it. And all these expouned thapos [...]es and euangelystes agaynst Luther & Tyndale, as the catholyke chyrch doth now. wherin yf Tyndale dare saye that I saye false / I shall yet onys agayn lyke a blynde harpar y harpeth all on one stringe, fall to my rude refrayte, & synge hym myne olde song / wherin I haue so oftē prayed hym to tell vs then some one of thē all that euer accompted it lawfull & held it not abominable a frere to wedde a nōne.

[Page cccxxviii]Now the seed that hath all thys whyle ben sent vnto this A flocke, whych Tyndale sayth that the lorde of hostes hath gathered hym togyther / haue ben Nicholas heretyke, Eutiche heretyke, Ebyon heretyke, Ualenciꝰ heretyke, Enno­nomius heretyke, Arrius heretyke [...] Marciō heretyke, Mō tanus heretyke, Manicheus heretyke, Heluidiꝰ heretyke, Macedoniꝰ heretyke, Iouinian heretyke, Pelagius heretyke, and Cestestinus heretyke, & of euery age some such a shrewd sort down vnto wicliffe heretyke, & Husse heretyke, & Luther heretyke, & Lambert here [...]yke, and Huyskyn he­retyke, and Tyndale heretyke, & Barns heretyke, & many such ryffe raffe mo. Of all whych euery one cōtraryeth his felow in great articles of the fayth, and in thexposycyon of scripture, as by which euery one of thē wold seme to proue trewe his false cōtraryouse errour. And therfore as god y B kynge of peace & vnyte, and very lorde of hostes also, sent the tother good seed vnto his knowen catholyke chyrche, & gathered and kepte it togyther, & togyther kepe it shall spyght of all heretykes and all the greate gates of hell: so is it not dowte but that the sower of dyssencyon and kynge of rebellyon, the prynce of pryde the great deuyll hym self, hath gather [...]d thys flocke to hym, and sent alway now and than such darnell seed and cocle to fede them.

But waye well yet agayn good reder that ryall ende of hys raylynge, wherin he sayth that the lorde of hostes hath to thys flocke of these heretykes gyuen eares to heare that the ipo­cretyshe wolues can non heare, and eyes to se that the blynde leders of the blynd can not se, and an harte to vnderstande, that the generacyon of vypers can ney­ther vnderstande ne knowe. C

I nede not to putte you in mynde, that by the wolues & ipochrytes and blynde leders, he meneth the doctours and techers of the catholyke chyrche / and by the blynd that are mysse ledde into the dyche, the laye people of the same chyrche / & by the tother flocke yt haue all these goodly gyftes of god, y scatered flocke of his vnknowē chirch of his electes, that byleue it lawfull for freres to wedde nonnes / among whō yet he nameth & men know many wel knowē knaues

Consyder nowe that oure present mater for whyche he bryngeth in all these wordes, and towarde the profe wher­of he brought in the wordes of Cryste, that Crystes owne shepe here hys voyce, but the worlde hereth it not / is no thynge ellys but to shew, that Tyndals chyrche of electes [Page cccxxix] A doth not knowe the scrypture by the techyng of the catho­lyke chyrch, but by god hym selfe / as saynt Iohn̄ Baptyst and the prophetes dyd, and as the egle knoweth hys pray by the secrete instyncte of nature.

Consider than how farre he goth ferther now then euer he went before. For here in the ende he not onely cōcludeth for his heretykes, that they here Cristes voice / but also for the catholyke chyrch the contrary / that is to saye that the catholyke chyrche neyther can here, se, nor vnderstand, nor knowe the voyce of Cryst, that is to wytte the gospell and scrypture of god. And thus he bryngeth all his paynted processe to this poynt in conclusyon / that lyke as here be­fore his mayster Marten and he, wolde that in the vnder­standyng of scrypture, no man sholde stande to the fayth & B exposycyon of the hole catholyke chyrche / but syth god as he sayth techeth hys electes hym selfe, and who they be no man knoweth of an other / but by Tyndale thorowe the fe­lynge fayth euery man knoweth hym selfe, & euery man as Luther sayth byleueth for hym selfe, & yf he be deceyued y perell falleth also vpon hym selfe / euery man therfore in cō struynge the scrypture truste vnto hym selfe: as hytherto they haue thus sayd cōcernyng the vnderstandyng, so doth Tyndale now teche them in that that towcheth the know­ynge whych is the scrypture, so that hereafter euery lewde body sholde be bolde to say that hym self is one of Crystes shepe, & therfore vnderstādeth his voyce, & can dyscerne his worde, & knoweth hym selfe whych is the very scrypture / C as saynt Iohn̄ Baptyste dyd and the olde prophetes & the apostles of Cryst, and as the egle knoweth his pray by an onely inwarde mocyon. And then shall he thus call scryp­ture what boke hym lyst, & refuse for scrypture what boke it please hym. And some of them begyn all redy gyuyng no credence to no man but yf it be some of theyr owne brayne, some of suche excellent holynes [...]e as all the world may per­ceyue for electe and chosen sayntes, by raylyng, & rybaldry, rebellyon, debate, and stryfe, by bybbyng, & syppyng, & sop­pyng, & quaftyng, and wurshypfull weddyng of nonnes.

And here lo the goodly conclusyon of Tyndals thyrde answere vnto saynt Austayns reason.

But now shall ye se the wylynes.

For where as all thys whyle he hath dyssembled, and wolde not be aknowen that thys reason was takē of saynt [Page cccxxx] Austayne, bycause he wolde at more lybertye lashe out his A raylynge agaynste it: seynge yet that the thynge was so playne & open / he hath at the laste bythought hym, and re­kened it beste to knowlege and confesse it. And now ther­fore for hys fourth answere, herke I requyre you how properly the wyse man soyleth it.

Tyndale.

If they alledge saynt Austayne, which sayth I hadde not byleued the gospell excepte the authoryte of the chyrche had [...]euyd me! I answere as they ab­use that sayenge of the holy man, euen so they allege all the scrypture, and all that they brynge for them, euyn in a false sense. S. Augustyne before he was conuerted was an hethen man and a philosopher [...]ull of worldly [...]ysdome, vnto whom the preachyng of Cryste is but folyshnes, sayth Pa [...]l [...] 1. Corin. 1. And he dysputed wyth blynde reasons of wordly wysdome agaynst the chrysten. Neuerthelesse the ernest ly [...]ynge of the chrysten accordyng vnto theyr B doctrine, and the constant soferyng of persecucyon and aduersyte for theyr doctrynes sake, moued hym and stered hym to byleue that it was no vayne doctryne / but that it must nedes be of god, in that it had such power with it. For it happeneth that they whiche wyll not heare the worlde at the beginnynge / are afterwarde moued by the holy conuersacyon of them that byleue. As Pe­ter warneth christen wyues that had hethen husbandes that wolde no [...] heare the treuth preched, to lyue so godly that they myghte wy [...]ne theyr hethen husbandes with holy conuersacyon [...] And Paul sayth, How [...]nowest thou chrysten wyfe, whether thou shalt wynne thyne hethen husbande [...] with holy conuersacyon ment he. For many are wonne with godly lyuynge / which at the fyrst ether wyll not heare nor can not byleue. And that is the authoryte that. S. Augustyne ment. But yf we shall not byleue tyll the lyuynge of the spyrytualty conuerte vs / we be lyke to byde longe inough in vnbylyefe.

More.C

Lo good chrysten readers, here haue you Tyndals an­swere. And now let vs fyrste suppose that in thys answere he tolde vs trewe, that saynt Austayne ment as he sayeth here he dyd, & that he byleued the chyrche but for the good lyuynge and vertuouse conuersacyon that he thenne sawe therin: yet was at the leste wyse the chyrche that he ment of, the knowen catholyke chyrche, and not an vnknowen chyrche of electes. And so is Tyndale shortely quyte ouer­throwen therin to.

Also though Tyndale sayd here trew of saynt Austayns mynde, that he byleued the chyrche bycause they were then good men: yet standeth that order styll, that he fyrste byle­ued the catholyke knowen chyrche, and fyrste knewe and [Page cccxxxi] A knowleged and byleued it, and then of it and by it receyued and knewe and knowleged and byle [...]ed the scripture to be the very word of god. And so is Tindale styl ouerthrowen.

ye sayeth Tyndale that is trew / but he was broughte into the bylyefe of the chyrche that then was, by the good vertuouse leuynge that then was in yt / as saynte Peter counsayled the crysten wynes wyth crysten lyuynge and vertuouse conuersacyon, to wynne theyr vncristen husbandes vnto crystendome. But yf we (sayth Tyndale) shulde not byleue tyll the lyuy [...]ge of the spyrytualty conuerte vs, [...] be lyke to abyde lo [...]ge ynough [...]n vnbylyefe.

well. Suppose fyrste that Tyndale sayde trewe, yet fo­loweth yt at the last y saynt Austayne was none of those holy electes, those gaye golden egles, that be taughte in­wardely B wythout any outwarde teachynge.

But now wolde I that Tyndale here rehersed vs what was the lyuynge, and whyche were the vertuouse that so flowred in the chyrch, that was in saynte Austayns tyme. Fyrst as for persecucyon that Tyndale speketh of / ye catholyque chyrch had not in his tyme any greater persecucyon by heretykes in Affryke, then yt hadde now these late yeres in Almayne / and I wene as many good chrystē men haue constantely su [...]red harme, and as myche to, in Sa [...]o [...]ye, and Suycherlande, and some other partes of Germany, by the Lutherane heretykes, and the Huyskyns, & Swynglianes, as there dyd in hys tyme in Affryque by the Do­na [...]ystes.

Then as for the other vertues and maners that then C were in the chyrche, for whyche saynte Austayne dyd as Tyndale sayth byleue yt / and wolde not yf he nowe lyued and were vncōuerted, so receyue and byleue the scrypture by the chyrche: now wolde god that Tyndale had reher­sed those maners and those vertues, that we myght ther­by perceyue whether saynte Austayne yf he were nowe a­lyue, and suche as he was byfore hys conuersyon & wolde not be conuertyd by the catholyke chyrche, were lykely to to be conuerted by the conuersacyon of theyrs, by the holy lyuynge of Luther, and Lambert, and Huskyn, and suche a rable of wedded munkes and freres.

And yet yf he so were / then muste yt be ye wote well a knowen chyrch. For of an vnknowen chyrche could he not be moued, nor take none authoryte / and so were Tyndals [Page cccxxxii] chyrche of his vnknowen electes clere gone agayn, for any A fortherauns of saynte Austaynes fayth.

And therfore muste we then wyt of hym farther, whyche of all his chyrches, which of his false sci [...]matyke sectes, were yt that sholde do thys dede and wynne vs in s [...]ynte Au­stayn, that shuld be suche a trew doctour of trew y chyrch.

There is good reders a boke whyche saynte Austayne wryteth agaynste heretyques of his owne tyme, that dys­praysed then the lyuyng of the crysten people of the catho­lyke chyrch, extollyng the holy vertuouse lyuyng of theyr owne secte / by whyche we may well se ye heretykes had yet at that day a right fayre visage of very vertuouse lyuyng, and preached not theyr heresies with defence of open shamfull lechery, as these bestely heretykes do nowe. But saynt Austayne, all be yt he coulde not say naye, but that in the B chyrche there were as well badde as good: yet descrybeth he partely the vycyouse lyuynge and partely the ypocrysy to, that was then amonge those hcretyques, and bysydes that the vertuouse lyuynge that then was amonge many good folke of the catholyke chyrche.

And what vertues be those? surely euen the same that the knowen catholike chyrch teacheth now, and which vertues in this catholyke chyrch many a good man both spy­rytuall and temporall yet vnto this daye god be thanked very well kepe and obserue / howe be yt the fewer a great many, syth these deuelyshe heresyes came vppe.

And this dare I well promyse Tyndale, let hym rede ouer that boke when he wyll, in whyche saynt Austayn reherseth the vertues y he prayseth in the chyrche / & when he C hath well and perfytely redde yt onys ouer, or yf he lyste hardely twyse or thryes yt can be no losse of his tyme / and this I say wyll I gladly geue hym wyth yt, let hym take myn yie for an apple, yf he fynde yt in all the boke cōmen­ded for any great vertue, a frere to wedde a nunne.

And therfore syth Tyndale alloweth saynte Austayne and the vertues that then were in the chyrch / I wyll bynd hym to none other, but that that he now prayseth and commendeth hym selfe. Lette hym no more but byleue saynte Austayne / and then shall he byleue the sacramentes / and go to shryfte, whych he now calleth the deuyls inuencyon / and shall take absolucyon, whyche he now calleth whyste­lynge / and shall gladly do penaunce, that he nowe calleth [Page cccxxxiii] A synne / and shall byleue the knowen catholyke chyrche and knowlege yt for the chyrche of cryste, and shall take theym all for heretykes that departe oute therof, and shall byleue surely y determynacyon therof, and take them all for here­tykes that wyll holde the contrary / and then wyll he shaue his crowne agayne, and saye matens and masse after the olde fashyon, and putte of his knaues cote and ware an honeste man / and then he wyll aduyse frere Luther to lye no more wyth nunnes.

Hytherto good chrysten reder haue I so reasoned thys poynte of saynt Austaynes wordes, as though Tyndales answere vnto them were trew. And then yf they so were in dede / yet what good effecte hath Tyndale therupon ye perceyue. For though it so were in dede, yet were Tyndale neuer B the nere / but alway wolde yt folowe as I haue shewed you, that the very chyrche must nedes be a knowen chirch, and neyther any chyrche of v [...]knowen heretykes, nor any knowen chyrche of all these heretykes neyther / nor fynal­ly none other but onely thys comen knowen catholyque chyrche.

But nowe good reder, for as myche as Tyndale sayth that the chyrche doth falsely take saynt Austayne and contrary to hys mynde, euen in lyke maner as he sayeth they do all the scrypture, to blynde and bygyle the people with: we be very gladde he sayth so. And as Tyndale hath here hym selfe put these wordes of saynte Austayne for ensam­ple, how the chyrche vseth yt sel [...]e in thexposycyon of scry­pture / so shall we be very well content ye take yt / and that C by this one poynt ye may perceyue and iudge, whyther the chyrche or Tyndale expowneth here saynt Austayne more trewly / and therby iudge lykewyse as Tyndale here wold haue you, both the chyrch and hym in the trew or the false expownynge of all the scrypture of god, where eyther part sayth the tother expowneth wronge.

Now saye we then that where Tyndale sayeth that the cause why saynt Austayne dyd byleue the ch [...]rch, was by­cause they were then good men / Tyndale doth but dyuyse that tale vppon his owne, hed to seke some euasyon where he myght gete oute. For bysydes that yt appereth playne by saynte Hierome, that there were at that tyme the same vyces in the catholyke chyrche that are now, all saue weddynge of folke that hadde vowed chastyte / I saye that in [Page cccxxxiiii] the place where saynte Austayne wryteth those wordes, [...]e A speketh neuer a worde that the vertuouse lyuynge o [...] [...]he chyrche caused hym to byleue it, nor nothyng in that place speketh of the vertuouse lyuynge of the chyrche, nor of t [...]e, persecucyon / but in many other places he confes [...]eth, that the chyrche then was as we se yt nowe is, a congregacyon and company of both good and badde.

And that in this boke wryten agaynst Cresconi [...]s, he alledgeth that holy martyr saynt Cypriane, and r [...]hers [...]h his wordes wryten in hys pystle that he wrote vnto Maximus / by whyche he sheweth that men maye not leue the chyrche bycause of the euyll f [...]e that be therin. For in the chyrche there be both good and badde, as there are in the feld of god wherof Cryste speketh in the gospell both good corne and cocle / and in a great house as saynt Poule saith B to Timothe there are not only golden vessellis and syluer, [...] [...] but also trene and erthen.

These wordes of holy saynte Cypriane doth holy Au­stayn reherse and approue / wherby mē may well perceyue, that both saynt Cypryane and saynt Austayn to, dyd take the chyrch for none other then the knowē catholyke chirch / and knewe that chyrche ryght well, not for a companye of onely good men, but of go [...]d and badde bothe, and so be they s [...]yll what euer Tyndale say.

But yet this one thyng dyd both saynt Cyprian & saint Austayne say, that of all [...]hat departe oute of this chyrche, there is not one good nor can not be good, vntyll in harte they resorte therto agayne. And for that cause is yt called holy chyrche / not for that euery man is holy that is in yt,C but for that many suche be in yt, and none can be holy that wyll not be in yt.

And to thentent that ye may the more clerely perceyue, that Tyndale here to blynd vs wyth, deuyseth of his own hedde this euasyon, that saynte Austayne byleued not the chy [...]che in his days but bycause of theyr constaunce in persecucyon and theyr holynesse of lyuynge: who so loke vp­pon the place where he wryteth those wordes, that is to witin his boke agaynste the pystle of Manicheus theretyke, of whose secte saynte Austayne hadde ben onys hym selfe / wythout any cōsyderacyon of persecucion or holy lyuyng, layeth other consyderacyons that made hym know and byleue the catholyke chyrche of hys dayes / that is to wytte [Page] A the consent of the catholyke chrysten nacyons / and that he had the catholyke chyrche in authoryte, fyrst for the myra­cles that were shewed therin / and that therupon his fayth and credence geuen therunto, was nurysshed and fos [...]ered wyth hope encreaced wyth cheryte, and confermed with antiquite. There helde hym he sayd in the gyuynge of fayth and credence to the catholyke chyrche thys thynge also, that is to wyt that he sawe the successyon contynued in the see of saynt Peter, to whom our lorde had after his resur­reccyon cōmytted the fedynge of his shepe sayth saynt Au­stayne, from saynt Peters dayes vnto hys owne tyme. And fynally euyn the very name he sayth of catholyke, that is to say vniuersall, gaue toward the gettyng of his credence the catholyke chyrche great anthoryte / whych name of vniuersall B the same chyrche alone amonge so many heresyes hadde so obtayned, that where as euery secte of heretykes wold fayne be taken for catholykes, yet yf a straūger shold come amonge them & aske where were any catholyke chyr­che that he myghte go to, there were none heretyke y durst for shame bryng hym to any chyrch or any house of theyrs.

These causes [...]o [...]ayed saynt Austayne, all whyche cau­ses are in the catholyke chyrch styll / these he layd I say for the authoryte of the catholyke chyrch, for whyche he sayde he gaue so fast fyrme & vndouted credence to it, that for y authoryte therof he byleued the gospell at the teching therof. And these causes he layd vnto the heretykes [...] as [...]u [...]es that he thought shold of reason moue them therto also.

And yet to the entent ye shall the more clerely se [...] how [...] C Tyndale wolde wyth hys lyes blynde vs / and what ferme credence saynt Austayn gaue to the knowē catholyke chyr­che wythout mencyon of eyther persecucyon or vertu [...]use lyuynge, as Tyndale wolde here make vs wene: I sh [...]ll translate and reherse you here saynt Austayns owne [...] ­des wryten in the fyfth chapyter of hys sayd boke agaynst the pystle of Manicheus. In whych place saynt Austayne dysputeth agaynst the heretykes of that secte, and proueth them, that lyke as he that byleueth the catholyke chyrche hath good suretye of hys bylyefe, & is able to shewe good causes of his bylyefe all thoughe there were no scrypture wryten / so on the tother syde, the Manycheys bycause they byleued not the catholyke chyrche, and lykewyse who so euer byleueth it not can neuer proue any thynge for theyr purpose, neyther to hym that byleueth not the scrypture, [Page] nor yet vnto hym neyther that doth byleue the scrypture.A And therfore saynt Austayn hauyng rehersed before what thynges be suffycyent to make hym byleue the catholyke chyrche bysyde the scrypture / doeth nowe in thys chapyter dyspute wyth them, & shew them that they & all suche here­tykes as go fro the fayth of ye catholyke chyrch, can neuer proue theyr parte good, neyther to hym that refuseth the scrypture, nor to hym that byleueth it. And therin lo thus he sayth.

Let vs se therfore what Manicheus techeth me / & spe­cyally let vs consyder the selfe same booke that ye call the pystle of the fundacyon, in whyche is conteyned almoste all that ye byleue. when that same pystle was redde vnto vs at that tyme wrechys that we were, we were wont to vowe downe and say Amen. Thus begynneth the pystle.B

Manicheus the apostle of Iesu Chryst, thorow the prouydence of god the father / these be the holsome wordes issuynge out of the euer flowynge founteyne of lyfe.

Now I praye you and it please ye herken pacyentely what I shall aske you. I byleue not thys man to be the a­postle of Cryste. I beseche you be not angry nor begynne to chyde / ye knowe well that I am determyned nothynge rasshely to byleue that ye bryng forth.

I aske you therfore who is thys Manicheꝰ [...] ye answere me y apostle of Crist. I bileue it not. Now haue ye nothing that ye can eyther saye or do. ye promysed to teche me and make me to know the trewth, & now ye wolde make me by­leue the thyng that I know not. ye wyll peraduenture rede me the gospell, and labour to proue me the persone of C Manicheus by the wordes of the gospell. But now yf I shold fynde you out some man that yet byleued not the gospell, what coulde ye then say for Manicheus, to hym that wolde saye vnto you I byleue not the gospell. Now as for me, I wold not byleue the gospell but yf the authoryte of the catholyke chyrche moued me therto. Thenne syth I obeyd them in that they bode me byleue the gospell / why shold I not byleue them in that they bydde me byleue not. Manicheꝰ. wyll ye now that I byleue the catholike chirch or not? Chese now your selfe whyther parte ye wyll / yf ye byd me byleue the catholyke chyrch they be those that byd me y I sholde not in any wyse gyue any credēce vnto you. wherfore byleuyng them, I can in no wyse byleue you.

[Page ccxxxvii] A Then on the tother syde, yf ye wolde saye to me, byleue not the catholyke chyrch: then can ye not of reason bynde me by the gospell to byleue Manicheus, syth I had not byleued the gospell it selfe but for the catholyke chyrche.

Now yf ye wolde then say to me, thou dydest well to by­leue the catholyke chyrch in that they cōmēded the gospel, but thow doste not well to byleue them in y they dysprayse Manicheus: wene ye me so very a fole, that tellyng me no cause wherfore I shold byleue what so euer ye byd me, and byleue in no wyse what ye lyste forbyd me. yet mych more reasonably & more cyrcūspectely do now I, in that I de­departe not from ye catholyke chyrche whych I haue onys byleued, & translate my selfe to you, but yf that ye can fyrst not bydde and cōmaund me byleue, but openly and clerely B som what make me knowe, wherfore good reason wolde I shold byleue. wherfore yf ye wyll shew me any reason, then let the gospell alone. For yf you take you to ye gospel / then wyll I take me to the chyrch, by whose cōmaundement I byleued the gospell / and then by the commaundement of the same chyrche, I must in no wyse byleue yo [...].

Now yf it so were that ye coulde by possybylyte fynde in the gospell somwhat, that coulde clerely proue Mani­cheus to be Crystes apostle / then must it folow theruppon (yf I sholde byleue you therfore) that I must then not by­leue the catholyke chyrche [...] byddeth me byleue not you. And then agayn yf I [...] not the chyrche, then can I not byleue the gospell, syth I byleue the gospell for the chyrche / & so could nothynge serue you that ye shold bryng C of the gospell. And therfore yf ye [...]rynge no clere thyng out of ye gospell to proue Manicheus Crystes apostle, I must rather byleue the catholyke chyrche then you.

And on the tother syde, yf ye found for Manicheus any manyfest thynge in the gospell / then coulde I neyther by­leue the chyrche nor you / not the chyrche bycause they lyed to me of you when they told me ye were not to be byleued, nor you bycause ye proue your parte but by that scripture, which scrypture I byleued not but thorow byleuyng them whom I [...]ught not to byleue, bycause they prou [...] them self false in makyng a lye of you. But god forbyd that I shold not byleue the gospell / for byleuyng the gospell I can not fynde how I shold byleue you. For among all the apostles names y are there found, ye name of Manicheꝰ it not foūd.

[Page cccxxxviii]Lo good chrysten reders here se ye playnely that Tyndale A is tellynge vs that saynt Austayne, where he sayth he wolde not byleue the gospell it selfe sauynge for the authoryte of the chyrche, dyd mene therin nothyng ellys, but the good lyuynge that then was in the chyrche, and theyr con­staunce in persecucyō ledde hym to byl [...]ue them in techyng whyche was the scrypture: it well appereth I say by saynt Austayns owne wordes, that the chyrche truely taketh his wordes, and Tyndale vntruely glos [...]th them. For neyther doth saynt Austayne in this arguyng reproue the lyuyng of the Manycheise, nor extolle and commende the lyuynge of the catholyke chyrche / but in suche wyse maketh his ar­gument, as it both maye and muste serue for the knowen catholyke chyrche agaynste all kyndes of heretykes, what so euer the lyuynge be of the tone parte or the tother. And B this argument is made more stronge now by thre partes, than it was whan he made it. And syth the chyrche shall as Cryst promysed neuer fayle / the argument of saynt Austayne for some of the causes consydered,Matthe [...] 16. shall euery daye be strenger for the chyrche then other, as longe as ye world shall stande.

For saynt Austayne alledgeth there for one of the cau­ses that moued hym, the contynuaunce of the chyrche, whiche than had contynued in s [...]cessyon aboute the space of foure hundred yere. How [...] is that stronger now after the contynuaunce in succ [...]n the space of .xv.C. yeres? And as for myracles wyth whych as saynt Austayne sayth they that byleue not be fyrst comenly moued to gyue fayth C and credence / the comon knowen catholyke chyrche neuer lacketh, nor no chyrch of heretykes neuer hath.

And thus I saye good reders, ye may perceyue by that place in saynt Austayne whyche I haue rehersed you, and by hys other foure chapyters immedyate before, that the mynde and entent of saynt Austayne is playne, that god of his goodnesse offereth men occasyon, and by good and substancyall causes helpeth them that are wyllynge fyrste of all to knowe the trewe chyrche [...] of whyche euery trewe pre­cher is a member. And then lyke as god vseth myracles & dyuers other meanes, by whyche meanes his [...] helpe & grace maketh the well wyllyng person to percey [...]e & know whych [...] is his very chyrch: so doth he after vse the same chyrch for a [...]eane, by whych he maketh a mā [...]now whych is the [Page cccxxxix] A very scrypture / ye and ouer that in thynges necessarye for saluacyon, whych is the very sense and the trew vnderstā dynge of the very scrypture [...] ye and when god hath vsed the knowledge of the chyrche, to make a man know why­che is the scrypture / then is the same scrypture a very sure meane to conferme him the faster and ye more surely, in the knowlege & byliefe of the chyrch / he shall so surely therin se proued the thynge that he before perceyued and byleued, that the catholyke chyrche is the ve [...]y chyrche.

An this is the trew order and the playn [...]tente and menynge of saynt Austayne, as yt playnely appereth as well in his byfore remembryd boke, as in the worke of his confessyons in the order of his owne conuersyon / and very playnly in a pystle of his agaynst the Donatystes, whych B is in his boke of pystles .cxlviii. In whych saynt Austayn playnely sheweth that the knowen catholyke chyrche is playnely by scrypture proued the very chyrche / and that in all doutes and questyons, euery man muste stande vn­to that ende, whych shall be eyther by the same chyrch de­termyned, or by the generall custome of the same chyrche approued.

Saynte Austayne also in his thyrde boke agaynste the pystle of Permen [...]ane sayth in playne wordes, that there is no suertye of any vnyte but yf the chyrche be declared and knowen / whyche accordyng to goddes promyse sette vppon an hyll,M [...]t [...]. 1. can in no wyse be hydden / and therefore muste yt nedes be, that the chyrche is thorowe the wo [...]lde knowen. And none is nor neuer was thor [...]we the worlde C knowen for the chyrche of Chryste, but onely the knowen catholyke chy [...]che.

Saynte Austayn also in his pystle to Uincentius, whyche pystle is in order the .xlviii, sayth in this wyse expressely [...] How can we byleue by the scrypture of god, that Cryst is comen into the worlde and knowen, yf we byleue not therby that the chyrch is also manyfest and knowen? lette any man who so wyll knyt and put in agaynste the playn trowth, all the hokes and handles that he can / let hym cast afore oure yien what mystes of wyly falshed that he lyst / and when he hath all done, loke how he is accursed, that wyll tell vs that Chryste neyther veryly dyed nor veryly rose agayn / euen lykewyse accursed shall he be, that wyll tell vs for the very chyrche any other then this comen ca­tholyke [Page cccxl] chyrche of all crysten nacyons.A

Lo good reder Tyndale sayde he [...]e before, y we wolde not byleue saynte Austayne nor any of the olde holy doc­tours, as though hym self wolde. And now haue ye hard saynte Austayne / whome yf Tyndale wyll byleue, all our questyon is decyded. For he sayth as we saye, that the co­men catholyque chyrch is the very chyrch. And yf he wyll not byleue hym / then let hym leue lyke as he is to lay hys owne faute to other folke.

Good crysten reders yf my purpose were here to proue you by the consente of the olde holy doctours of Chrystes chyrche, that the knowen catholyque chyrche is the very chyrche: the nomber of those authorytees wolde fyll an hole boke. But my purpose is here onely to answere Tyndale and confute his solucyon, wyth whych he falsely gloseth B the wordes of saynte Austayne, that sayth he byleued not the scrypture yt self but for the authorite of the chyrch. wherin I haue playnely proued you by saynt Austaynes owne wordes, Tyndales wordes shamfully false, as well in the pryncypall purpose, as in that he layeth falsely to the chyrche that the chyrche doth abuse the sayng of saynt Austayne.

And therfore syth he sayth that they mysse construe and falsely alledge all the scrypture, euen in lyke maner wyse as they do saynte Austayne / whyle ye playnely se that in this poynte whyche Tyndale putteth for the sample, the chyrche sayth trewe and hym selfe lyeth: good cause haue you to byleue this lewde felow in the remanauntlyke.

But now shall ye se Tyndale deuyse you suche a shyft,C that contrary to all his shyftes afore, he shall clerely con­fesse hym selfe that he both knoweth and byleueth the scrypture by the catholyke chyrch. For now commeth he to his fourth solucyon, wyth whyche he clene destroyeth all the tother thre that he made vs byfore. Lo thus he sayth.

Tyndale.

And when they aske whether we receyued the scrypture of them / I an­swere that they whyche come after, recey [...]e the scrypture of them that go byfore. And when they axe whether we byleue not that yt is goddes worde by the reason that they tell vs so / I an [...]were that there are two maner o [...] faythes, an hy [...]torycall fayth and a felynge fayth.

More.

Lo good reder here shall ye se that the thynge where a­bout [Page cccxli] A he hath bombled all this whyle, that is to proue that he knoweth not the scrypture by the chyrche, and to proue that he byleued yt not to be the scrypture of god, bycause the chyrche so tolde hym, perceyuynge at lengthe that all his answers were weke feble and faynte, and that none of thē all wold stand / he is dreuen at the last for very very shame to confesse some parte of the trouth, & yet for shame also to denye a nother parte. For by thys dystynccyon of these two faythes, hystorycall fayth and felynge fayth [...] he wyll in the ende tell vs that ones he knew the scrypture by the chyrche in byleuynge the chyrche / but that was but an hystorycall fayth. How be yt he well saye that now he ney­ther knoweth it nor byleueth it by the chyrch, but by the in­warde inspyracyon and teachynge of god hym selfe.

B And where as his mayster and he many tymes mokke the doctours of the chyrch, for vsyng of trew dystynccyōs in thynges where they be requysyte / hym selfe hath here deuysed an euasyon by meane of a dystynccyon made by Melancthon / in whyche destynccyon as in a myste he weneth to walke away. But I truste ye shall se the myste breke vp so fayre, that he shall not escape so. Lo thus goth he forth there wyth.

Tyndale.

The hystorycall fayth hangeth of the trewth and honestye of t [...]e te [...]er, or of the commen fame and consente of many. As yf one to [...]de me that t [...]e Turke had wonne a cytye, and I byleued yt moued wyth the honesty [...] o [...] t [...]e man. Now yf there come a nother that semeth more honeste, or that hath [...]tter pe [...]suasyōs that it is not so / I thinke immediatly that he lyed and [...] [...] C fayth agayne. And a felynge fayth is, as yf a man were there [...]r [...]sent [...] yt was wonne, and there were wounded, and had there loste all that he [...]a [...], an [...] were taken presoner there also. That man shulde so byleue, t [...]at a [...] t [...]e worl [...]e coulde not turne hym from his fayth. Euyn lykewyse yf my mot [...]er had blowen on her fynger and tolde me that the fyre wolde burne me / I sh [...]ld haue byleued her wyth an hystorycall fayth, as we byleue the s [...]ory [...]s of the worlde, bycause I thought she wolde not haue mokked me. And so I shulde haue done / if she had told me that the fyre had ben cold and wold not haue burned. But as sone as I had put my finger in the fyre I shulde haue beleued / not by the reason o [...] her, but wyth a felynge fayth / so that she coulde not haue persuaded my afterwarde the contrary. So now wyth an hystorycall fayth I may byleue that the scrypture is godds by the teachynge of them / and so I shulde haue done though they had told me that Robben hod had ben the scrypture of god. Whych fayth is but [...]n opynyon, and therfore abydeth euer frutelesse [Page cccxlii] and fauleth awaye, yf a more gloryouse reason be made vnto me, or yf A the preacher lyue contrarye.

But of a felynge fayth yt is wryten Iohn̄. vi. They shall be all taughte of god. That is, god shall wryte yt in theyr hertes wyth his holy spyryte. And Paule also testyfyeth Roman. viii. the spyryte bereth recorde vnto oure spyryte, that we be the sonnes of god. And thys fayth is none [...]pynyon, but a sure felynge / and therfore euer frutefull. Neyther hangeth yt of the ho [...]estye of the preacher but of the power of god and of the spyryte. And therfore yf all the preachers of the world wolde go about to persuade the contrary, yt wold not preuayl / no more then though they wolde make me byleue the fyre were colde / after that I hadde put my fynger therin.

Of this ye haue an ensample Iohn̄. iiii. of the Samaritanyshe wyfe, whych left her pytcher and went into the cytye and sayde / come and se a man that hath tolde all that euer I dyd / is he not Cryste? and many of the Samarytanes byleued bycause of the saynge of the woman, how that he had told her all B that euer she dyd / and went oute vnto hym and desyred hym to come in / whych fayth was but an opynyon and no fayth that could haue lasted or haue brought out frute / but when they ha [...]de herde Cryste, the spyryte wrought and made them fele. Wheruppon they came vnto the woman and sayde: we byleue not nowe bycause of thy saynge, but bycaus [...] we haue harde oure selfes and knowe that he is Chryste the sauyour of the worlde. For Chrystys preachynge was wyth power and spyryte that maketh a man fele and knowe and worke to / and not as the scrybes and pharysyes preached, and as cures make a man redy to c [...]st his gorge to heare them raue and rage as madde men. And therfore sayth the scrypture, cursed is he that trusteth in man and maketh [...]elshe his arme / that is to say, his strength. An [...] euen so cursed is he that hath no nother bylyefe but bycause men so saye. Cursed were he that had no nother why to byleue then that I so say. And euen so cursed ys he that byleueth onely bycause C the pope so sayth / and so forthe thorow out all the men in the worlde.

More.

Lo good crysten reders, here haue I geuen you hys whole tale to gether, to the ende of his whole chapyter, whyche houerly loked on and redde ouer plesauntly with hym that lyketh hyt ere euer he loke on yt for fauoure of the secte, can not but seme very gay. But who so consyder yt & aduyse yt well / he shall fynde not one pyece of treuthe therin, farther then I haue all redy shewed you in the end of hys fyrste solucyon / where I touched in few wordes scant spendynge foure lynys therin, that y mynde of sayn [...] Austayn was and is I wene of all good men besydes, that [Page cccxliii] A when we byleue the chyrche eyther in knowynge whyche is the scrypture or in the trewe sense and ryghte vnderstandynge of the scrypture, god both preuenteth vs in geuyng vs the occasyon, and wurketh wyth vs and we wyth hym into the perfytynge of our consent and bylyefe / as he doth towarde the perfayt accomplysshement of euery thynge wherby we walke towarde our saluacyon / towarde why­che we can no thynge do wythout hym, as hym selfe sayth,Iohan. 15. wythoute me nothynge can you do / so that the inwarde secrete cause wurkynge wyth vs is hym selfe.

But ordynaryly god vseth outwarde meanys and in­strumentes, such as euery man may sumwhat by the same gyue a reason and cause of hys owne faythe to an other man, and therby tell hym that for the same causes the man B to whome he telleth theym sholde of good reason folowe and byleue a lyke.

And in these meanes lyke as god vseth the bodyly senses whyche we call the fyue wyttes, as wayes and meanes to­warde that vnderstandynge whyche men attayne by rea­son, though there be somtyme bytwene the reason and the bodyly senses some debate and variaunce: so dothe he vse bothe the seruyse of the bodyly senses and of the reason of the soule towarde the seruyse of the fayth / addynge ther­wyth bycause it is a thyyge farre aboue the nature of them bothe, hys owne supernaturall ayde and helpe of hys su­pernall grace to preuent vs wyth occasyons and mocyons of bylyefe, and walkynge on wyth vs excepte we leue of our selfe to the perfaytynge of bylyefe in our hartes, and C helpynge vs to inclyne oure myndes into the credence of those outwarde causes and motyues, whyche wythout hys helpe in thynges ordeyned of god for the waye to heuynwarde, we sholde not haue done / nor of goddes ordynary course we sholde not haue byleued wythout some such out­warde sensyble causes neyther, as is prechynge and myracles and some suche other.

And therfore as I before shewed you, saynte Austayne all be it that without helpe of god he byleued not the catholyke chyrche, nor wythout helpe of god knewe and byleued the scrypture by the catholyke chyrche / yet he alledged vn­to those heretykes the Manichays, not that inwarde cause the secrete helpe of god that wroughte wyth hys wyll and hys reason, in geuynge credence to those outwarde causes [Page cccxliiii] for whyche he sayth that he byleued the chyrche / for therin A myghte the Manicheys fayne theym selfe hys matchys, & say that the were inspyred, and that they felte theyr inspy­racyon in theyr hartes so felyngly, that therby they percey­ued that Manicheus theyr archeretyke was the very apo­stle of Cryst, and that saynt Austayne eyther had no suche felynge or ellys a false felynge and was begyled.

And therfore as I saye saynt Austayne layed them not that inwarde cause, but the outwarde causes of hys byle­uynge the chyrche / whyche were so good and effectuall, that the heretykes neyther coulde nor neuer can be able to brynge the lyke for them selfe. And then layeth he the same chyrch by those outwarde reasons so proued trewe, for the outwarde open cause of the knowlege and bylyefe of the very scrypture / and then doth the scrypture beynge by that B outwarde cause, that is to wytte by the chyrche well per­ceyued and knowen for the word of god, bere wytnesse also & is an other outward cause of the more sure and perfayte knowlege, that the knowen catholyke chyrche is the very trewe chyrch of Cryst here in erth, & that all other are vt­terly fayned & false, bothe by the manyfolde textes of the scryptute expressely declaryng it as saīt Austayn sheweth, & also for that very reason sheweth that god gyuynge the gyfte of knowlege which is his trew scrypture to a chyrch, & vnto none but one or by that one, wolde neuer gyue that specyall goostely gyfte and prerogatyue vnto any false chyrche, and than byd the trew chyrche go lerne the trouth of the false.

Now good chrysten readers thys waye went saynt Au­stayne C wyth suche outwarde causes, as myghte of reason lede the reader wyth hym. But now cometh Tyndale and seynge that he can not auoyde the reason of saynt Austayn neyther wyth samples of saynte Iohn̄ and the pharyseys whyche he broughte in dysguysed of dyuers fasshyons to make one answere seme twayne, nor wyth false glosynge of saynt Austaynes wordes wherin ye se Tyndale proued playne false: he cometh now and confesseth that same outwarde cause of fayth vnto the scrypture / grauntyng that hym selfe and euery man ellys knoweth it and byleueth it fyrst thorow the catholyke chyrch. But then flyeth he forth frome the, fayth of the chyrche vnto hys felynge fayth, by which he now knoweth & byleueth y scrypture as he sayth, [Page cccxlv] A and no lenger by the chyrche. And [...]herin he playeth by hys felynge fayth, as hys felowes do by theyr remembraunce. For yf any heretyke be taken and examyned vpon his oth of any maner thynge whych he wyll not confesse for hope that it can not be proued, nor dare well deny it for fere that it wylbe proued as whyther he sayd such a thynge or sawe suche a man / he runneth strayt to hys remembraunce, and sayth he sayd it not or saw hym not to hys remembraunce, though it were in le [...]se then halfe an howre afore. For ther­in he seeth hym selfe saufe. For though the whole towne sawe them togyther and herde hym speke it / yet whyche of all them can proue whyther he remember it styll or haue forgote it were it neuer so late.

And so playeth Tyndale now, beynge fayne to graunte B all that he hath denyed / he flyeth lyke rede Raynarde the foxe for hys saufegarde into his malepardus of his felyng fayth / in whyche though he haue nothynge to proue it, yet the Raynarde trusteth to lye saufe, bycause he thynketh no man can fynde hym out. For who can folow hym thyder to make any tryall what maner fayth hym selfe feleth in hys owne harte.

But yet good reders we shall so sette aboute hym, and then sette in suche terryers to hym, that we shall I truste eyther course hym abrode or make hym euyll reste within.

For lette vs now resorte agayn vnto the gaye gloryous processe of Tyndalys holy dystynccyon. And where as in the begynnynge therof he calleth the hystorycall fayth a cre [...]ence gyuen to a story tolde hym by men / and that such C fayth and credence hangeth vppon the trouth and honesty of the teller, or of the comen fame and consent of many / as yf a man tell hym that the Turke hadde wonne a cytye, and that therfore yf there come an other that semeth more honeste, or that hath better persuasyons, than he thyn­keth immedyately that the fyrste man lyeth and so he lo­seth hys fayth agayne: If ye consyder well good chrysten readers ye shall fynde that parte of hys dystynccyon, that is to wytte the tone halfe of all to gyther is suche a tale as tyll he proue it better, shall neuer serue hym here. For all be it that in wordely thynges thys tale be trew / yet in maters of faythe, whyche faythe is the fyrste gate whereby we entre oure iournaye the ryghte waye toward god / we canne neuer come at it wythout the helpe [Page cccxlvi] of god / nor how probable a tale so euer be tolde vs, neuer A shall we byleue it wythout hys holy hande inwardly set on vs, and ledyng vs therin to / whych is euer redy in all such thynges, both to preuent vs and to goo forth wyth the to­wardnesse of our owne wyll not frowardly resystynge but applyable vnto hys mocyon.

And thys order to be trewe Cryste wytnesseth, where he sayth,1 Io [...]an. 1 [...]. No man can come to me but if my father draw hym. And saynt Poule,2. Corinth. 3. sayenge, we be not suffycyent of our self to thynke any good thynge as of our selfe. And therfore god as I sayde preuenteth vs in the begynnynge, & goeth forth wyth vs all the waye / wythout whom we coulde do nothynge by fayth towarde god, nor [...]y the outwarde oc­casyon of fayth toward the inwarde consent therof, syth no B man can as saynt Poule sayth, saye our lorde Iesus but in spyryte.1 [...] Corinth. 12. And that god is euer redy, but yf we wyllyngly wythdraw / hym selfe sheweth where he sayth, I stonde at the dore and knocke.Ap [...]a. [...].

And that god helpeth vs forward not without our own cō formable wyll, appereth playn by clere textes of scrypture I wene mo then an hūdred. As where he sayth, wo be thou Capharnaum / for yf in Tyrus & Sidon had ben wrought the myracles that haue bene wroughte in the,Matth. 11. they wolde longe a goo haue done penaunce in asshes and shyrtes of here. And also where he sayd vnto Hierusalē in this wyse: Hierusalem Hierusalem how often wold I haue gathered thy children togyther,Lucae. 1 [...]. as the henne gathereth togyther her chykens / & thou woldest not. And where he byddeth saynte C Thomas of Inde, wyll not thou be vnbyleuynge but byleuynge. And where he blameth hys dyscyples for not byle­uynge those that had seen hym rysen from deth agayne.Iohan. 26 And therfore is it in my mynde false that Tyndale sayth,Marc [...]. 16. that the hystorycall fayth, that is to saye the fayth acquy­syte and gotten by gyuynge credence to the reporte and tellynge, dothe in the thynges of the chrysten fayth depende vppon the trouth and honesty of menne, or comen fame a­lone. For all be it that such thynges be the outwarde occa­syons, by meane wherof a man cometh therto: yet is there euer more in euery such fayth the inwarde cause mouynge our wyll towarde the consent therof, the spe [...]yall ayde and helpe of the great goodnesse of god, wythout whyche oute wyll had neuer walked towarde it.

[Page cccxlvii] A And lykewyse as not the mannys tale at oure eare with oute god workynge wythin, bryngeth vs into the bylyefe, (For as saynt Au [...]tayn sayth, In vayne sowneth at ye eare. the word but yf god worke in the herte) euē so not ye mānis tale alone kepeth ye faith in vs, but as an outward mocyon yt kepeth as it brought / but pryncypally kepeth vs therin he that pryncypally brought vs therto, that is the inward workynge of goddes owne holy spyryte. And thus ye se that this pyece of Tindales tale is but a bare brokē patche

Nowe the tother parte, wherein he sayeth that yf there come a more honeste man, or one that hath better persuasyons to the cōtrary / that then he that had the faith vppon the fyrste mannys tellynge, loseth yt agayne vpon the seconde man tellynge the cōtrary: I say yt this patche B is double noughte. For syth as I sayd byfore he came to the fayth by two mocyons / the pryncypall god workynge wythin, and the secondary the occasyons outwardely ge­uyn also by god: lyke as the good wyll workynge wyth god assented vnto yt, so shall neuer any mannys tale, n [...]r the tale of a thousande agaynste one, ouermayster that in­warde mocyon of god, as long as the wyll of the man will contynue styll with god in cleuynge to the fayth, as yt dyd in folowynge hym in the commynge to yt. Aud therefore some man that hath vppon ryghte small occasyon turned to the fayth, and therfore wyth the myche more meryte as Cryste sayde, Ble [...]sed be they that haue byleued and haue not seen: could neuer wyth any maner occasyon be pulled from yt agayne, bycause of theyr good wyll stykkyng styll C to the inwarde cause of theyr fayth.

For yf a man may as in dede he may, so obstynately set his wyll vnto the worse syde, that no persuasyon of good reason can remoue hym to the better: how mych it is more trew, that when a man hath coupled his wyll wyth god, by inclynynge & cleuynge vnto grace, there can none euyll persuasyon of counterfeted reason be able to plukk [...] hym from yt tyll the frowardnesse of his wyll do wyllyngly fall therfro, as the towardnes of his wyll dyd wyllyngly cleue therto / and as yt agayne maye when yt is fallen from yt, wyth helpe of grace wyllyngly returne therto.

Now yf Tyndale call this a felyng fayth: yet were his dystinccyon then clene vaynyshed and gone. For then were euery historycall fayth in maters in the fayth a felyng faith [Page cccxlix] also. And therby were then all his solucyon confounded.A

But this peyce is also nought for a nother thynge. For in this patche he supposeth that for ye fayth of Cryste there coulde not be gyuen so good an outwarde cause, but that some better myght be made agaynst yt, or at the leste some suche as myght appere the better. But I say that excepte obstynacy & forwardnes be in the mynde of hym to whom yt shall so seme / yt is ellys a thynge impossyble, that euer there shall be layed so great outewarde thynges agaynste the fayth of Cryst, as shall be layed for yt. But the reasons all redy made, and the thynges all redy shewed for y fayth are suche, as euery resonable man standynge but indyf [...]e­rent and voyd of ob [...]tinate forwardn [...]sse, yf the mater were but the trouth of a [...]tory and not the meane of mānis saluacyon, might well descer [...]e all that may be made agaynst yt B to be farre the weker parte. And now beynge this mater the meane of mannys saluacyon, towarde the bylyef wherof god worked / Tyndales tale is myche the flebler. For ellys geue we them a great excuse that lest not to byleue the trouthe.

But oure lorde sayth vnto the prechers of hys sayth, whome he sent to preache to all the worlde, that he wolde geue theym a [...]outh and wysedome therin, that no man shold be able to resy [...]te the reasons wyth whych they shold conferme yt. In [...]hych wordes our lord ment not, yt euery man wolde for all those reasons of prophecyes myracles martyrs and many other thynges bysydes, consente and agree to byleue but / that all be yt of ab [...]tynacy they wolde not yet to theym that were indyfferent, yt sholde well ap­that C they coulde neuer be able suf [...]ycyently to answere thē, but that they myghte euer by playne outwarde proues be sustancyally confounded / and the trew byleuer able alway to declare to the false and faythlesse an outward cause suffycyent of his fayth and hop [...], whyche the tother myghte frowardly saye he wolde not / but reasonably could he ne­uer say why he shold not beleue and geue credence vnto. And thus ys lo the fyrste parte of Tyndales dy [...]tynccyon de [...]troyed.

Now is the seconde part [...], his felyng fayth, whych is he sayth that bylyefe and fayth, not that a man hath goten and conceyued in hys harte by herynge of other men, but by ye playne experyēce of his owne felynge. And wyth this [Page cccxlix] A felyng fayth byleueth he y batayle that hath not herd other men talke therof & told yt hym / but hath hym self both ben present therat, aud also ben wounded therin. Nor no man byleueth wyth the felyng fayth that the fyre is hote, tyll he haue at the leste wyse burned his fynger in yt. For all ys but hystorycall fayth byfore.

Nowe good cristen reders, by this tale Tyndale telleth vs that all the credence whyche he gaue vnto the chyrche, in takynge the bokes of the foure euangelystes for the ve­ry gospelles of Cryste, was all to gether but lyke Tynda­les mothers blowynge vppon her fynger / and therby ma­kynge that prety babe her sonne byleue that the fyre was hote and hadde burned her / and that he wolde haue byle­ued her no lesse, yf she hadde tolde hym the same by a cuppe B of colde water. And that in lyke wyse as he byleued the chyrche that the gospelles were holy scrypture, so shold he haue byleued theym yf they hadde tolde hym that a tale of Robben hode hadde ben holy scrypture. For syth all was but an hystorycall fayth, all muste nedes haue ben one.

Consyder by the way good reder the dyfference betwene saynt Au [...]tayne and the good man Tyndale, in theyr cre­dence geuen vnto the chyrche. Saynte Austayne byleued the chyrche in teachynge hym why [...]h was the trewe scryp­ture, bycause he perceyued well the same chyrch to be so declared by miracles & many other menes to be ye trew chirch, that therby he byleued that the doctryne therof coulde not be false, and that therfore yt could not teache a tale of Robbyn hode to be the gospell of Cry [...]te.

C Now Tyndale as ye se taketh the credēce of the whole catholyke chyrch the [...]der of euery mānys cristendome, lyke his ovne moder blowynge vpon her fynger, and ther­by makynge the babye byleue what she ly [...]te. And therfore in this poynt wherin saynte Austayne and the good man Tyndale tell you two so dyuerse tales / consyder well with your self the wysedom, the lernynge, the maners, & the vertue, of those [...]wo [...]n / and then of them both loke whome ye fynde beste, and by myne aduyse euen hym byleue beste.

But now doth Tyndale he sayth byleue the trouth, that not a tale of Ro [...]ben hode but the bokes of the foure euan­gelystes be the t [...]w gospell of Chry [...]te, bycause oure lorde [...]ath hem self so taught it hym, and so shewed yt hym now, that all that he hath he [...] the [...] vyfore by the teachyng of [Page cccl] the catholyque chyrche, moueth hym nothynge at all / for A now he hath an inwarde profe and experyence therof, and fully and sensybly feleth yt, as he feleth the fyre hote by the burnynge of his fynger.

And as he feleth yt thus in hym selfe / so he perceyueth yt is with all y other electes the mēbers of his trew chyrch and that therfore of all them there is none that knowe the scrypture by the catholyke chyrche, but by theyr owne sure secrete felynge, suche as they fele when they burne theyre fyngers.

This is the tale ye wote well that Tyndale telleth vs. But now is yt perde good reason that Tyndale tell vs al­so, by what meane he proueth yt / or ellys at the leste wyse that he tell vs some cause resonable wherfore we sholde in so straunge a mater byleue hys bare worde. For furely B though that in any such thynge as he wyll saye that he fe­leth hym selfe in his owne breste, and theruppon take hys othe vppon hys honesty that he feleth yt in dede / reason requyreth for lakke of other tryall, that we byleue his owne worde / consyderynge that we may be ledde to byleue hym by the long experiēce of the contynuall lyeng that we haue euer therfore foūden in him, yet that the lyke felyng is also in all his felowes hartes how feleth he? And therfore howe can he desyre that we sholde therin byleue hym wythoute profe? namely syth we se that hys owne hyghe spyrytuall may [...]ter, mayster Martyne Luther hym selfe; for all hys hygh fleshely vertues, layeth not in that mater such feling for his owne fayth, but well lyketh and mych alloweth the hystorycall fayth of saynte Austayne / and playnely confes­seth C hym selfe that the chyrche that [...]aynte Austayne spake of, that is to wyt the knowen catholyke chyrch, hath that gyft gyuen of god, that yt shall perfytely dyscerne the wordes of god from the wordes of men / [...]nd therfore [...]hall ne­uer take and teache a tale of Robben hode for the trew scripture of god.

Now therfore as I say, Ty [...]dale muste proue vs this felynge fayth / at the lest wyse f [...] the fayth of his felowes / or ellys shall he make vs fele that for a shyfte to scape a­way wyth, he hath sought sore [...] found out for the artycles of his heresyes, not any tr [...] felyng [...] fayth [...] but a false fumblynge fantasye.

yet wolde Tyndale seme to proue his felynge fayth by [Page cccli] A scrypture / and therfore he sayth, Of the felynge [...]ayth yt is wryten Iohn̄. vi. They shall be all taughte of god. That is, god shall wryte yt in theyr hertes wyth hys [...]oly spyryte. And Paule also testyfyeth Roman. viii. the spyryte bereth recorde vnto oure spyryte, that we be the sonnes of god. And thys fayth is none opynyon, but a sure felynge / and therfore euer frutefull. Neyther hangeth yt of the honesty of the preacher but of the power of god and of the spyryte. And therfore yf all the preachers of the worlde wolde go about to persuade the contrary, yt wold not preuayl / no more then though they wolde make me byleue that the fyre were cold / after that I ha [...] put my fynger therin.

Now good chrysten reades here haue ye fyrste herde the wordes of god, wyth whych Tyndale wold make vs wene that he proueth vs hys felynge fayth of all hys heresyes / & after haue ye herde the wordes of hym selfe declarynge the B effecte of the same, in hym self so depe and so surely wryten in hys herte, that all the prechours in the worlde can not now scrape it out no more, then make hym byleue that the fyre were colde in whyche he had burned hys fynger.

Fyrste ye maye sone se that the